education https://www.scienceblogs.com/ en Science’s Greatest Lesson For Humanity Is ‘How To Be Wrong’ https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/10/11/sciences-greatest-lesson-for-humanity-is-how-to-be-wrong <span>Science’s Greatest Lesson For Humanity Is ‘How To Be Wrong’</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>“Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” -Augustine of Hippo</p></blockquote> <p>Science isn't the easiest endeavor you can undertake. Sure, the rewards are tremendous: you can wind up understanding any phenomenon in the Universe as well (or better) than any human has ever understood it before. But on your way there, you're going to have to do some of the most difficult work you've ever done. It isn't just mathematical and scientific work, either, but internal work on your own psyche. You'll need to learn how to be wrong.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/10/Reconstruct-1200x960.jpg"><img alt="" class="size-medium wp-image-36728" data-entity-type="" data-entity-uuid="" height="480" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/10/Reconstruct-1200x960-600x480.jpg" width="600" /></a> From the distant Universe, light has traveled for some 10.7 billion years from distant galaxy MACSJ2129-1, lensed, distorted and magnified by the foreground clusters imaged here. The most distant galaxies appear redder because their light is redshifted by the expansion of the Universe, which helps explain what we measure as Hubble's law. Image credit: NASA, ESA, and S. Toft (University of Copenhagen) Acknowledgment: NASA, ESA, M. Postman (STScI), and the CLASH team. <p> </p> </div> <p>No one comes into a scientific field already knowing all the answers; that's why we do the science in the first place. When you're just learning it, you put an incomplete number of puzzle pieces together, and your incomplete picture is usually incorrect. Or at least, less correct than the best picture. This means it's up to you to challenge your assumptions, revise your internal beliefs, and draw superior conclusions. The reward, if you can make it, is not just a better understanding, but the lesson of how to be wrong, and how to be better in the future.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/10/IBMresearch.jpg"><img alt="" class="size-medium wp-image-36727" data-entity-type="" data-entity-uuid="" height="400" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/10/IBMresearch-600x400.jpg" width="600" /></a> IBM's Four Qubit Square Circuit, a pioneering advance in computations, could lead to computers powerful enough to simulate an entire Universe. But the field of quantum computation is still in its infancy. Image credit: IBM research. <p> </p> </div> <p>It's a lesson that goes far beyond science, and can be applied to all areas of our lives. Imagine what the world could be like if we all did it.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Wed, 10/11/2017 - 01:31</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/physics" hreflang="en">Physics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/right-and-wrong" hreflang="en">right and wrong</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/free-thought" hreflang="en">Free Thought</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546889" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507703605"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The world of physics may seem bleak now to some but I think we maybe really close to TOE.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546889&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7-YhOU4Q3FChWK_L-MzTLr1Nil0xrO3tf4U3zeHGmAg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Frank (not verified)</span> on 11 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546889">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546890" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507719449"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Frank #1,<br /> I'm afraid not. They thought they were very close to a TOE in the eighties and early nineties. Since then, Super Strings, M - Theory, etc...None of them have produced anything except excuses and more math, not new physics. This doesn't mean there isn't new physics, it just means they are going to have to back up the car (start discarding assumptions) until they are back on the road again. Once that happens, then you will see something new.<br /> When you stack too many assumptions, if anything is even slightly off with your earlier assumptions, everything on top sort of...falls down.<br /> Check it out!!:<br /> .<br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIWN_JgtVq0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIWN_JgtVq0</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546890&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bRR0aEFloE3teCEutyHmbgeCCIosYZiZ8NSwLYv5b74"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 11 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546890">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546891" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507733005"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"How To Be Wrong" is very simple. Don't assume you "know it all" already. Imagine being an unbiased scientist.</p> <p> Then start a new blog.... not ***assuming*** a "start" or "beginning."... or that your opinions are established scientific facts.</p> <p>Imagine an eternally oscillating universe. Forget your instruments and math expertise for that moment of un- programed contemplation<br /> .<br /> That's all I can give you for advice. I'm fairly sure that you will ignore it as always. "Too close to home" is the defense mechanism (just a minimum of "psychology".) I'll be gone soon. Not that interested in sci-fi.</p> <p>There are many "real science" sites and discussions out there on the net. Best wishes for your sci-fi projects and clique of fantasy followers and pursuit of fame and fortune.</p> <p>This may be my last post. Or not. Open the box to see if I'm dead or alive... or both until observed!<br /> It's been "interesting."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546891&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hkwrRu_3e1any661NR5xN0skoDnmdJhMt-5mvI027Ks"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Mooney (not verified)</span> on 11 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546891">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546892" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507737217"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Michael, why do you take a blog so personal? Ethans blog here is not meant to be be a "Final Solution" answer to everything.<br /> Ethan's strength is his story telling ability within the science community. He just tells a story. he is not trying to prove he is the smartest person who knows everything.</p> <p>I think you may be taking this blog a we bit personal..<br /> Relax, appreciate the "story"...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546892&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Zj61ajLJY5gvKM-6GeMIdjexzefGW9vc6l3AmQPjCdA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 11 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546892">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546893" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507738358"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@CFT #2,<br /> I agree completely to everything you just said there.<br /> Of course we should always remember lessons of our past to guide our future. </p> <p>But I would also caution to always remember past experiences cannot be absolute proof for what can or cannot happen in the future.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546893&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IWhlyoB8VdFhs7a2-G1uYD2Pz_6-1VzE3jgrvdn-i68"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Frank (not verified)</span> on 11 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546893">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546894" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507739265"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ragtag Media #4,<br /> I agree completely to everything you just said there.</p> <p>Also I think we became like a family here, just like you had said before. I also think we are always having good time here. Why leave?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546894&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EE96J4iltehmImVIH2BWhIPx7NEg7tGHgSE9rSL7qLM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Frank (not verified)</span> on 11 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546894">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546895" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507743192"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Can you imagine a world where humanity valued learning and revising your opinions as much as strongly-held convictions that were unshakable, no matter what the evidence indicated?</p></blockquote> <p>I'm in the process of teaching my kid lots of games. Like many small children, he doesn't like to lose. But the more games he plays, the thicker the skin he gets. And the more he does it, the more he thinks about the overall activity rather than the outcome of any specific game. "Daddy won, I'm upset" becomes "Daddy won 6 of the last 10 and I won 4...pretty good" hopefully will become in the future "I have no idea who's won more games this week. Play on!" </p> <p>I think that's a lot like science. People who do a little of it, or who have one single idea they focus on, tend to worry about whether it's going to 'win.' Professional scientists, OTOH, tend more towards the attitude of "hey, 2 of my 50 papers have stood the test of time. Cool!" Or even "what, that paper of mine is still kicking around? I lost track. Who knew?" The activity becomes the focus, rather than the success or failure of any individual effort's outcome.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546895&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EgnaNRK8JWwWRIEQRjbkinKKW5iqG_jAo5uqRZppjT0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">eric (not verified)</span> on 11 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546895">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546896" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507753019"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@eric #7,<br /> I think it's lovely to think about scientists considering as you speculate, but I would add one more thing. An experiment to test the speculation. Until you test it, all you really do have is an unfinished idea that can't carry it's own weight, much less some other theory. If it can't be tested, don't stack anything else on top of it, perhaps the scientist should try moving the research in a direction that can be tested. Right now we have a preponderance of speculation, almost sixty years of built up theory that may come crashing down because so many scientists kept treating the citing of each others papers as evidence of anything.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546896&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eUM3o7AwDXyljazihxtWVem5bBcR2-O1T659-kYVHMQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 11 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546896">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546897" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507823240"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Okay CFT, where is the temporal cut-off? If I develop an hypothesis that can't be tested for another week, is it science? How about a year? How about 10 years? How about 100 years?</p> <p>And let's say nobody can figure out how to test my idea right now. Looks completely untestable to human science. Is it science? But then next week some smart guy comes up with a method to test it nobody had thought of before. In that week, did my idea magically transform from non-science to science?</p> <p>I agree that testability is a good criteria for science. But I don't think there's any bright line distinction. I think it's within reasonable science behavior to push the boundaries; to consider ideas that are currently untestable or that look to take decades to test by current technology. Because we can be wrong about 'untesable' or 'takes 50 years' just like we can be wrong about an hypothesis. Now no, this doesn't mean every single crank idea should be funded because it <i>might</i> pay off. We still need to prioritize what gets funding using reasonable criteria (and testability is one of them). but I don't think it's the only one or always absolutely necessary. A good national science portfolio should include some high risk, high payoff research. Not a lot, but not <i>none</i> either.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546897&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SDI4biL52smNYlHp5S0phHhpOMXUYaakM4v14oBh22U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">eric (not verified)</span> on 12 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546897">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546898" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507895085"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1. Thanks Ethan, for STEALING MY IDEA and writing it up better than I could.</p> <p>2. Interesting that none of the comments here address being wrong. (Including this one.) Sure, it's epistemology, but....?</p> <p>3. Paging Dr. Dunning &amp; possibly Dr. Kruger. Dr. Dunning, white courtesy telephone please.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546898&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FKxUTUt6gtjwMcADObXJrspQOoYrct8hEp01I8i2upw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GregH (not verified)</span> on 13 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546898">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546899" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507904975"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GregH: " 2. Interesting that none of the comments here address being wrong."<br /> My comment above:<br /> How To Be Wrong” is very simple. Don’t assume you “know it all” already.<br /> Look a little closer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546899&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UFhdn5zrkF_z5uChUpCd8POED2TGT3GlgOvy8J79oKM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Mooney (not verified)</span> on 13 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546899">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546900" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507926815"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@eric #9:</p> <blockquote><p>Okay CFT, where is the temporal cut-off? If I develop an hypothesis that can’t be tested for another week, is it science? How about a year? How about 10 years? How about 100 years?</p></blockquote> <p>Perhaps a better word to use would be "falsifiability". If your hypothesis can be falsified, even if we can't test it now (but may be able to later), then I believe we can consider it scientific.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546900&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W9qdT6_xhgz0HKSr0JSOUXCK3fQSKV2VYmgxajkNSnI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 13 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546900">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546901" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507965406"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>By definition, if its not testable it is not a hypothesis.<br /> Doesn't mean its not science though. Non-hypothesis driven science is certainly viable.</p> <p>Science- "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546901&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c3SgFCVDV-ZryqU9eo7FeHTUp8C3srEVVq0YSMR9LNs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Blackband (not verified)</span> on 14 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546901">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546902" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507965617"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>For example, Ethans recent posts on multi-universes being maybe inevitable is science, even though apparently there is no way for us to know if they are real.<br /> String theory research is science, but there is no evidence it is 'right'.<br /> The list is endless.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546902&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YmDytWPWbE6UtyqQs9hAL7aoB5VEwyQcSk2VYzWGkrY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Blackband (not verified)</span> on 14 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546902">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546903" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507973398"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Steve,</p> <p>Let us, for the sake of argument, assume that Science is the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.</p> <p>What is the purpose of observation and experiment, if not to test a model/hypothesis/theory? I will lump these together with the understanding that a hypothesis is a weaker conjecture than a theory, and that a model is one manifestation. Ref here Sabine's recent critique of Inflation as producing more models than insight.</p> <p>As I understand the process, if an experiment produces observations (data or numbers) that are consistent with predictions drawn from some theory, then the experiment can be said to corroborate, or even confirm the theory. Conversely, if the data is inconsistent with what one could expect (predictions) from a theory, then the theory is, if not actually disconfirmed, qualified.</p> <p>As an example, I recall reading in a link from this blog that the discovery of CMB was the measurement that confirmed the Big Bang theory and disconfirmed the Steady-State theory. If that example is challenged due to the "experiment" not being assembled by humans, perhaps the human measurements of "the fluctuation in the CMB, of the large-scale structure of the universe galaxies clump, cluster and form" have tested and confirmed Cosmic Inflation. If these too are inadequate due to their naturalness, surely the LIGO (and now VIRGO) experimental apparatuses tested the prediction of Gravity Waves by theory of General Relativity? </p> <p>If Einstein’s theory of General Relativity, Lemaître's "Cosmic Egg" (Big Bang theory) and the universe’s preceding Inflation as proposed by Guth (and fixed/enhanced by others) are Science, and they are Science because they could be tested (Karl Popper et al.), then models/hypotheses/theories that cannot (at least in principle) be tested are suspect as not being Science.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546903&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rYRKpGhunVgIu-WZeXroxwcQzpe8eEKWhbA-7737zQI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 14 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546903">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546904" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507976541"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You're mixing words up here that are well defined and need to be careful. A hypothesis isn't a conjecture. Nor is it a theory. I use wiki quotes in the below so I don't mess up.</p> <p>A hypothesis must, by definition, be testable - otherwise it isn't a hypothesis. Its is a proposition of fact based on observations/information. Its testability is the requirement of the scientific method as proposed by Popper. A theory is "a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena:" When you have the theory, you can form hypothesis (or better still a null hypothesis) and test them, and as more of them are proven true the theory becomes stronger. A conjecture is "an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information." These terms have strict mathematical meanings, and there are proposed separate theories and conjectures and they are named as such.</p> <p>Science itself is "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment." It encompasses all of the above.</p> <p>A theory as a whole may not be testable, but parts of what it implies may be giving it credence. When there is enough evidence and no contradictions it eventually transitions to fact. If any observations contradict the theory, and the observation is sound and reproducible, then the theory must be abandoned.</p> <p>As would call building equipment as part of science, and you don't need a hypothesis for that.</p> <p>You said "What is the purpose of observation and experiment, if not to test a model/hypothesis/theory? " The purpose of observation and experiment may be to test a hypothesis (not a theory). The observations can be used to develop theories and conjectures. From those you then develop hypothesis and there we are full circle - the scientific method. (A model is not a theory or a hypothesis).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546904&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HgAux5uULTlTmfTT7-B2bzFr9qvQp9l8Qs5RzSGIEUo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Blackband (not verified)</span> on 14 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546904">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546905" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507980491"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Steve,</p> <p>I'm more comfortable with the O.E.D.'s definition of theory (<a href="https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/theory">https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/theory</a>), where "hypothesis" is given as a synonym. If you use the O.E.D.'s definition of hypothesis, you'll see "theory" given as a synonym. Although you do agree with the O.E.D.'s definition of conjecture, you may be surprised to learn that both "theory" and "hypothesis" are given there as synonyms.</p> <p>Let us, for the sake of argument, accept as true that a conjecture is an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.</p> <p>As no science I'm aware of claims to have complete information (TOE), then all science truths are provisional and tentative, some more than others. If you’re comfortable with that, then we’re in agreement about what a conjecture might be.</p> <p>"… If any observations contradict the theory, and the observation is sound and reproducible, then the theory must be abandoned." While that may be true in theory (pun intended), I doubt many physicists have abandoned GR because of the non-locality of QM.</p> <p>If it is true that "A theory is 'a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena:' ", then it is false to claim "The purpose of observation and experiment may be to test a hypothesis (not a theory)". I side with Popper on this issue.</p> <p>We may also have differing POVs about the word "model". I see models as being derived from a theory or hypothesis. The myriad models derived from the Cosmic Inflation hypothesis are what Sabine Hossenfelder took such grave exception to in her guest post here 29-SEP-17. While Ethan remains a stout defender of the hypothesis, even he ended his synopsis with "… the phenomenon of 'infinite model-building,' where theorists churn out model after model after model, predicting every imaginable outcome, and therefore, predicting nothing at all."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546905&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0eEATMBS3pxOYYamU-aFiaOIJThPoSXT_KpAYBRZlt8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 14 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546905">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546906" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1507981635"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hmmmm. Thanks. Food for thought! Later.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546906&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oDzD3HdRgGwBZfAfBoBoA3vyvglkOmObhwqlkRyU3S0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Blackband (not verified)</span> on 14 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546906">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546907" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1508005240"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Steve Blackband #16<br /> Well said. I agree.<br /> "Theoretical Physics" has abandoned, on a large scale, the evidence required (eventually) to make it science. It's now modern metaphysics ("what if" conjecture) wearing the certified robes of science with doctorate degrees. (Just and "opinion piece".)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546907&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Vu1TI4oq1KjK3PeZFt4foFwz2Omm2Sg0mKJG6Zn4NG0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Mooney (not verified)</span> on 14 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546907">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546908" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1508043028"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Cool</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546908&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EiE1PIXTZVei2ykOny0REBDyge6fvirQmVB6A6ILc8Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 15 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546908">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546909" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1508145549"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Michael Mooney #11:</p> <p>I was wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546909&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9jkXyhzZQofEbsRMez8by6bBb4IkaId5Q5ALdHcmNNc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GregH (not verified)</span> on 16 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546909">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546910" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1508221595"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#17.<br /> Theres a difference between words as just words, which are flexible and changing, and words we use in science that we assign (or at least try to assign) stricter definitions to.<br /> Bucket is a synonym of pail, but it is not exactly the same. When there is a difference, Pail is actually a hypernym of bucket. Yea, I had to look that up too. After all its why we use math and not words to predict in science.</p> <p>So as this guy says:-<br /><a href="https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/187967/what-is-the-difference-between-a-model-and-a-theory">https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/187967/what-is-the-differen…</a></p> <p>"A theory is a set of statements that is developed through a process of continued abstractions. A theory is aimed at a generalized statement aimed at explaining a phenomenon.</p> <p>A model, on the other hand, is a purposeful representation of reality.</p> <p>As you can see, both share common elements in their definitions. What differs one from the other (in my opinion) is that one is aimed at generalized statements(theory) while the other is aimed as a helpful tool to understand specific phenomena(modeling).</p> <p>Another way to link the two and point out differences is, a model is often used to describe an application of a theory for a particular case. Sometimes it involves a given set of initial and boundary conditions.."</p> <p>Thus theory is a hypernym of model. Similarly Theory and hypothesis may be synonyms, but in science that does not mean they are the same thing. Clearly they are not (and so to with conjecture). In fact the best dictionary definitions say synonyms are the same or NEARLY the same.</p> <p>All semantics I know, but important for the structure and process of science. As Mr Popper taught us.</p> <p>Models have to be used carefully and 'sparingly' which I think is more along the lines of what Ethan meant when he wrote “… the phenomenon of ‘infinite model-building,’ where theorists churn out model after model after model, predicting every imaginable outcome, and therefore, predicting nothing at all.” I apologize for putting words into his posts.</p> <p>I knew a guy who modeled a complex biological process using around one hundred differential equations - carbon metabolism actually. The problem was the model only had a few inputs, and a few outputs. We would tell him the inputs and he would use the model to predict the outputs. We would then do the experiment and get different results than his outputs. He would then wiggle some of the equations and voila, his model (post)predicted the results. The process would repeat. Totally useless. Clearly underparameterised in this case but less extreme cases have the same problem.</p> <p>A theory is much more robust and must predict the observations, if not it must be abandoned. Models however get tweeked. Or probably more descriptively, twerked, endlessly. Oh no. Mental Chlorox please!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546910&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jGtMU3mK-lK0_u8Xj8rU-BrQbAz2Xofreyqgj3wVEpk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Blackband (not verified)</span> on 17 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546910">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546911" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1508222203"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Whoops I stated that wrong way round. Sorry.<br /> Bucket is the hypernym of pail.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546911&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l6-P-BYycuk5r3xAE_CIkqYX8UGw6bPqSHfPRxbsNUo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Blackband (not verified)</span> on 17 Oct 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546911">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/10/11/sciences-greatest-lesson-for-humanity-is-how-to-be-wrong%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 11 Oct 2017 05:31:10 +0000 esiegel 37128 at https://www.scienceblogs.com Successfully predicting the future requires theoretical science https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/09/14/successfully-predicting-the-future-requires-theoretical-science-synopsis <span>Successfully predicting the future requires theoretical science</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"The physicist is like someone who’s watching people playing chess and, after watching a few games, he may have worked out what the moves in the game are. But understanding the rules is just a trivial preliminary on the long route from being a novice to being a grand master. So even if we understand all the laws of physics, then exploring their consequences in the everyday world where complex structures can exist is a far more daunting task, and that’s an inexhaustible one I'm sure." -Martin Rees</p></blockquote> <p>It’s all too easy to take a look at a prediction that’s about something yet unproven and dismiss it as mere speculation. But in science, it’s the ability to predict the unknown accurately that’s at the core of what it means to have a successful scientific theory. Our best theoretical frameworks, laws, and models enable us to not only predict what should happen in familiar circumstances, but in unfamiliar ones as well. When we first looked into the distant Universe, at a patch of pure darkness, many were uncertain of whether we’d find anything at all.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2015/01/1-r8NUnLZi9epMpVpzHCcJog.jpeg"><img alt="" class="size-medium wp-image-32322" data-entity-type="" data-entity-uuid="" height="587" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2015/01/1-r8NUnLZi9epMpVpzHCcJog-600x587.jpeg" width="600" /></a> The original Hubble Deep Field, which discovered thousands of new galaxies in the abyss of deep space. Image credit: R. Williams (STScI), the Hubble Deep Field Team and NASA. <p> </p> </div> <p>When we were rewarded with thousands of galaxies in the Hubble Deep Field, it was no surprise; it was a consequence of well-established theories like the Big Bang and General Relativity. Signals from merging black holes, the discovery of the Higgs boson, and many other instances across many scientific fields validate this approach. And when a theoretical model makes failed predictions, that doesn’t necessarily mean the theory is a failure, but rather that there’s another important contributing factor to include in the future.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/09/LIGO_measurement_of_gravitational_waves.svg_-1200x1015-1200x1015.jpg"><img alt="" class="size-medium wp-image-36620" data-entity-type="" data-entity-uuid="" height="508" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/09/LIGO_measurement_of_gravitational_waves.svg_-1200x1015-1200x1015-600x508.jpg" width="600" /></a> The gravitational wave signal from the first pair of detected, merging black holes from the LIGO collaboration. The raw data and the theoretical templates are incredible in how well they match up. Image credit: B. P. Abbott et al. (LIGO Scientific Collaboration and Virgo Collaboration). <p> </p> </div> <p>In science, a theory is the most powerful thing you can invoke to help predict the future. It may not always be 100% correct, but it’s the best option humanity has ever discovered thus far.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Thu, 09/14/2017 - 01:01</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hubble" hreflang="en">Hubble</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/physics" hreflang="en">Physics</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/physical-sciences" hreflang="en">Physical Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546340" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505373469"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Comparing LIGO to Hubble is not a good idea. Hubble actually showed the galaxies in question. There they were. LIGO just says, here's a chirp, therefore orbiting black holes...because of our (tortured processing) relativity math... which by the way have still not been confirmed or located by any other form of observation. One was an actual observation. The other was an extrapolation of theory to prove something still as of yet unconfirmed.<br /> .<br /> Hubble was a 'show me', LIGO was a 'believe me'.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546340&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FgbUhyh3ai8I-drB1zPrP-n-MEFuNvAqBF4wfK3F6e4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 14 Sep 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546340">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546341" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505381827"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ethan wrote:</p> <blockquote><p>when a theoretical model makes failed predictions, that doesn’t necessarily mean the theory is a failure</p></blockquote> <p>By your thinking, can anything ever be proven wrong? </p> <p>As a whole, I think historical observation is far more useful than scientific theory at predicting the future. When cavemen didn't know what the sun was or that the Earth wasn't flat, they still knew the sun would come up in the morning. Video game players don't have to do any sort of scientific analysis to get better at playing a game. With regards to phenomena I think experience is vastly more important then explanation. When scientists are testing new theories they invariably compare them to historical observation to evaluate the robustness of their new theory. In virtually all science, theories are constructed to fit observations. It is only really the Screechy Social Sciences and Global Warming True Believers that see "scientists" operate backwards to make observations fit theory.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546341&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rr8uZswsGqgfa9Cls5gKjzPHXICi-te7gTIrqZER3w0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denier (not verified)</span> on 14 Sep 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546341">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546342" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505387126"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Denier,<br /> This is actually a problem in physics with superstrings. The landscape problem. It can't be falsified, whatever you want, somewhere in the landscape of 10^500 possibilities it's true...maybe...which means it has near zero predictive ability to describe our universe at all, especially if you can't find your needle (laws of our particular universe) in the practically endless haystack. Considering that it is basically like trying to get to the bottom of a Mandelbrot set, many in the physics community are getting increasingly impatient with an idea that soaks up so much funding and resources. While it is interesting to mathematicians, it does little to promote actual physics.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546342&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="M3PKYkg5f-4vv5Hd3cB6ktAVqwQzl-z_8dXeW8oOmDg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 14 Sep 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546342">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546343" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505407061"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Whoa, Denier. A video game player has to learn new strategies to further their position in the game. The player analyses their current status, then progresses with a new strategy derived from the failure of their last attempt. Is that so very different than the scientific approach?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546343&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cEbAxbscKc-5dhgRI15MgaZNRc48KlO0elKcubSMbak"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">PJ (not verified)</span> on 14 Sep 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546343">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546344" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505414507"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Intelligence adapts to circumstances, and, or predicts "successfully" the future. That's why intelligence evolved: it was successful. No "theoretical science" required, or then "theoretical science" has been practiced for millions of years, by apes and their predecessors!</p> <p>"Science" is what we know, for sure (or so we think). "Theoretical" science is guesswork, which will become "science" if it's successful. Philosophy is how the foundations of the theory... evolved.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546344&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QELJ7NNhnIVeoe8UwaWNqyMlUU7Mh4883zkj0LISTOA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Patrice Ayme (not verified)</span> on 14 Sep 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546344">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546345" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505454796"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@PJ wrote:</p> <blockquote><p>Is that so very different than the scientific approach?</p></blockquote> <p>I think that is an overly broad use of the term. With that line of thinking you'd make 'scientific approach' synonymous with cognition. That said, @Ethan was specifically pointing to Theoretical Science which generally requires the creation of a mathematical model. That isn't necessary with the simple accumulation of experience that helps video game players advance further than before.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546345&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GpJtM5xAcU2mDhBFOf345uWWADjjH-eCvbgv0OIjn3Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denier (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546345">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546346" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505456475"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@CFT wrote:</p> <blockquote><p>This is actually a problem in physics with superstrings.</p></blockquote> <p>That is a different issue. With that one you can't falsify it because there isn't enough computing power in the universe to model it. In @Ethan's scenario, you can model something and have it make very specific predictions. If the observed matches the predicted, that is a strong indication the model is correct. On the other hand, if the observed is different than the predicted then the model is wrong. It may be a little wrong or a lot wrong but it is wrong. That is a completely self-evident truth. @Ethan is playing word games because he recognizes that self evident truth can be used against Global Warming theory. I, for one, love to watch @Ethan don the tap shoes as he tries to dance around the obvious. </p> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNKRm6H-qOU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNKRm6H-qOU</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546346&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1Ubqg0tq7KmLbsd8lhWWj_KuducpPXjKLYZrBNDzRBY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denier (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546346">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/09/14/successfully-predicting-the-future-requires-theoretical-science-synopsis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 14 Sep 2017 05:01:54 +0000 esiegel 37099 at https://www.scienceblogs.com Why understanding scale is vital, not just for science, but for everyone https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/08/30/why-understanding-scale-is-vital-not-just-for-science-but-for-everyone-synopsis <span>Why understanding scale is vital, not just for science, but for everyone</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"I go to the Natural History Museum and look at the cage of stuffed starlings there. But my favourite thing is the big blue whale. The scale of it is unbelievable, and makes you feel how insignificant you are as a human being." -Arthur Darvill</p></blockquote> <p>How good is your sense of scale? Humans are notoriously bad at this, and yet understanding the magnitude of an event like Hurricane Harvey is much more difficult (and important) than simply using a slew of superlatives. If someone tells you how large the flood in Houston is, and tells you it's "100,000 times the area of the Capitol Mall in Washington, D.C.," or "enough water to fill a cube two miles on a side," does that help you visualize it?</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/national-mall.jpg"><img alt="" class="size-medium wp-image-36570" data-entity-type="" data-entity-uuid="" height="284" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/national-mall-600x284.jpg" width="600" /></a> The National Mall in Washington D.C., itself a substantially large area, would need to be multiplied by a factor of 100,000 to equal the area of flooding in the greater Houston, TX area. Image credit: Peter Fitzgerald / Wikimedia Commons. <p> </p> </div> <p>Scientists need to use tools and tricks like this much more frequently than they do, as these scale-based analogies are often some of the most helpful offerings they can give to help the public understand what's going on in a quantitative way. Visualizations in relatable terms like this are what we need more of, and analogies to more tangible scales can truly help communicate science to all.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/bennu_size_comparison.jpg"><img alt="" class="size-medium wp-image-36571" data-entity-type="" data-entity-uuid="" height="287" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/bennu_size_comparison-600x287.jpg" width="600" /></a> Comparing the size of unrelated objects, such as a 'familiar' one with an 'unfamiliar' one, can help people get a feel for scale in a uniquely powerful way. Image credit: NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center Conceptual Image Lab. <p> </p> </div> <p> </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Tue, 08/29/2017 - 23:33</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/math" hreflang="en">math</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/physical-sciences" hreflang="en">Physical Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546164" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504077231"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here in the UK we have a more standard unit scale, for areas it is the size of Wales, and for volume either olympic swimming pools or Wembley Stadium. For height we use double decker buses, or occasionally Nelsons Column.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546164&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OAOv_6d5mE6qTIUaRPiuArhVn4qGymGn9wy1GOD8P_g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">symball (not verified)</span> on 30 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546164">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546165" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504103323"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Good article Ethan, understanding scale is important.<br /> These guys have fun with money:<br /><a href="http://demonocracy.info/">http://demonocracy.info/</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546165&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7MD8VW268FCxD0J1R6lq-k-kwAKip9ZbxnzcR_ztxPM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 30 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546165">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/08/30/why-understanding-scale-is-vital-not-just-for-science-but-for-everyone-synopsis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 30 Aug 2017 03:33:47 +0000 esiegel 37085 at https://www.scienceblogs.com No, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Squashing Curiosity And Wonder Is Never Okay https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/08/29/no-neil-degrasse-tyson-squashing-curiosity-and-wonder-is-never-okay-synopsis <span>No, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Squashing Curiosity And Wonder Is Never Okay</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"Curious that we spend more time congratulating people who have succeeded than encouraging people who have not." -Neil deGrasse Tyson</p></blockquote> <p>Last week, millions of people across the United States got to experience the awe and wonder of a total solar eclipse, many for the very first time. But in a puzzling event, astrophysicist and one of the world’s most famous science communicators, Neil deGrasse Tyson, decided to use his fame to put down a great many people who were excited about this rare cosmic event. And sadly, when someone explained to him why they would (correctly) say that eclipses are rare, Tyson doubled-down with condescension.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/Solar-eclipses-are-rare.png"><img alt="" class="size-medium wp-image-36561" data-entity-type="" data-entity-uuid="" height="521" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/Solar-eclipses-are-rare-600x521.png" width="600" /></a> A selection of Tweets from Neil deGrasse Tyson on Twitter, along with responses to that Tweet and select responses from him. Image credit: lregaloni from Reddit / Twitter. <p> </p> </div> <p>Coming from anyone, this would be a damnable act of gatekeeping: using your own position as an expert within your field to make it less accessible for others. But from America’s most famous living astrophysicist, it’s inexcusable. If science is about anything, it’s about the joy and pleasure of finding things out; of learning about the Universe; of increasing your knowledge; of experiencing the wonder of existence itself.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/globe_inset_v3.jpg"><img alt="" class="size-medium wp-image-36562" data-entity-type="" data-entity-uuid="" height="600" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/globe_inset_v3-600x600.jpg" width="600" /></a> The entire path of totality across Earth's surface, for the August 21, 2017 eclipse. Only 0.26% of the surface experienced totality. Image credit: NASA's Scientific Visualization Studio. <p> </p> </div> <p>This can be a teachable moment for you, Neil. You may have had a poor moment where you behaved as the definition of pomposity, but it’s never too late to make it right.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Tue, 08/29/2017 - 01:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/free-thought" hreflang="en">Free Thought</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546150" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1503983402"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, Neil is right; there are eclipses fairly frequently, but why rain on the parade of people who cannot just quit their everyday lives and go running off to Eastern Asia or Southern Africa when there are eclipses in those places. Most people will only experience an eclipse when it is relatively close to home, as this one was for Americans (as will, of course the 2024 one be as well). Let people just wonder at and enjoy it when they can.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546150&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qHxW-FHBGRfp5U-jcMU0B4N5vvbB1nNNiszDOHmd8Uc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sean T (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546150">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546151" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1503986831"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The last time a total eclipse crossed the lower 48 like it did on August 21rst, was something like nearly one-hundred years ago. This means that my father, grandfather and possibly even great-grandfather did not have the opportunity that I had this month. -And he pisses on that for 'not being so rare!?' Bad scientist! Bad!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546151&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5966REk56ptjr8HVljIe5fnNPMLMKkVaPx4ujw-NKaM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joel (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546151">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546152" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1503990230"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ethan,<br /> For once I agree with you in your criticism of Tysons's pomposity an squashing of curiosity and wonder.</p> <p>But how about your own pomposity as you attempt to squash criticism of what you proudly present as established facts, though they are not? (A long list of examples is extant.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546152&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NvQNsvzwr8izubBQ0PkhchbvlTh8k38FG4buUy7e1Lc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Mooney (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546152">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546153" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1503992086"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Neil deGrasse Tyson does not think that people should experience awe and wonder when observing any natural phenomenon. Why, that might suggest that Man is small and insignificant compared to the solar system, or even the earth. Much better if you just stay indoors in your nice artificial habitat and watch the eclipse on a screen [hint: within the path of totality, it's not at all the same].</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546153&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c2SqNaob5LRyg5k13XYQhS0jTj5JjkhF9J0cPJhppeQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546153">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546154" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504000059"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Every two years (for totality). So how rare does it have to be for Neil to find it exciting? As Ethan pointed out its the only rocky world in our solar system where you can see one and it won't happen anymore in 650 million years. Wouldn't happen at all if Theia had missed the Earth.<br /> The sun rises and falls every day and I can still watch that in awe again and again and again.<br /> That said I think Neil just had a bad day and was tired and jaded by the whole thing - being who he is I bet everyone he met went on and on and on about it. He's not used to that - usually he's the one going on and on and on :-) (I LOVE his story about James Cameron and Titanic and the stars). No big deal. You only have to watch one of his videos to see his tremendous enthusiasm for all things science. Give the guy a break!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546154&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="S4i5iBW49NSFlZv6c0Gq_o_EuuboNA9xp6GHA-OxjVE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Blackband (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546154">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546155" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504000403"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here it is if you haven't seen it.</p> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B6jSfRuptY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B6jSfRuptY</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546155&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LEvPOoCVTOU_EkY6NeF7pqYvOR6lQJ_j-LhmIfba0po"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Blackband (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546155">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546156" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504006969"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think you miss a key point that was happening in the media in the US... that is to say, that while totality is NOT rare... if one lives outside of the academic bubble... one sees popular media feeding an apocolyptic fear that these are the "end times" because of a "rare event" that was foretold in the Xtian folklore and written up as if it was... ahem... 'gospel'. If you see that kind of BS about it being such a rare event, then Dr. Tyson is abolutely correct to point out that people should cool their jets and stop talking about it being such a rare event.</p> <p>In no fashion does it appear to have been inappropriate for him to say this. But I DO find it inappropriate to call him on it out of context to which Dr. Tyson works to push back on the darkness of superstition... as he clearly feels is part of his life's work, having taken it up from Carl Sagan.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546156&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o6B-pP5JTP5nUG62nlqCLhZRWwne3LwOfOjVhQawx84"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Candice H. Brown Elliott">Candice H. Bro… (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546156">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546157" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504014492"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Candice H. Brown Elliott,</p> <p>"... one sees popular media feeding an apocolyptic fear that these are the “end times” because of a “rare event” ..."</p> <p>I missed that. I suppose it depends on what television channels one watches.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546157&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_e9qua8cnQSYZR4jAiNZ0Ny5a_BdrS9P5Tf7XRzWhLg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546157">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546158" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504017642"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Ms elliot #7<br /> No question about his enthusiasm. He is a talk show favorite.<br /> It's his arrogance that puts me off. Just like Ethan's.</p> <p>And they both endorse the mainstream textbook version of GR, SR, Hawking radiation and (for the sake of sci-fi popularity, I must assume) "time travel"... via relativity's "block universe" of spacetime.</p> <p>Time travel is based on clocks ticking at different rates after acceleration, etc. and space shrinking as a mathematical result (the Lorentz Transformation)... making interstellar travel so much more convenient.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546158&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Iok_hPI0jNVDMRG2Z9etOnMZ0Puae3-14Qxlo6O81E0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Mooney (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546158">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546159" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504042557"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sure, eclipses aren't rare. But then I did some research earlier on attempts at replicating Eddington's starlight bending observations to test General Relativity, and found that some of the teams who did those observations needed to go all the way to Sudan and Mauritania to do it. The next total solar eclipse is on July 2, 2019, but totality will be visible only from the southern Pacific Ocean east of New Zealand to the Coquimbo Region in Chile and Argentina. In contrast, the eclipse last week happened right over some of the most populated regions of North America. Something like that won't be happening again until 2024.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546159&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XRYWhnwHKHrjkEydM8pttY3NWIiNaCfHVPFXKOWUrK4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Anonymous Coward (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546159">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546160" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504046322"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I spent 45 minutes explaining how an eclipse happens to a young person, with a HS education, who didn't know what the Milky Way is. He spent 1 1/2 hours watching the eclipse with his family with a pair of Celestron 2X eclipse glasses I gave him. (We had 80% totality in our location).</p> <p>No doubt hundreds of thousands of folks who haven't given "science" a second thought in a long time also joined my friend in experiencing the eclipse.</p> <p>Rare? Yeah, that's rare, by anyone's measure.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546160&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fDThKskqCX-O9OvP_dETPEXajdr_TJMreF_pj0IJQJc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jvj (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546160">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1546161" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1504086953"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"And they both endorse the mainstream textbook version of GR, SR, Hawking radiation and (for the sake of sci-fi popularity, I must assume) “time travel”… via relativity’s “block universe” of spacetime."</p> <p>That's because they understand it MM. You do not.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1546161&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aGg_hZNzqA7295PeDeCWp0o5OCov1wl39F4AYXoKXTo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 30 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1546161">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/08/29/no-neil-degrasse-tyson-squashing-curiosity-and-wonder-is-never-okay-synopsis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 29 Aug 2017 05:00:45 +0000 esiegel 37083 at https://www.scienceblogs.com America's Previous Coast-To-Coast Eclipse Almost Proved Einstein Right (Synopsis) https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/08/04/americas-previous-coast-to-coast-eclipse-almost-proved-einstein-right-synopsis <span>America&#039;s Previous Coast-To-Coast Eclipse Almost Proved Einstein Right (Synopsis)</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>“Astronomers are greatly disappointed when, having traveled halfway around the world to see an eclipse, clouds prevent a sight of it; and yet a sense of relief accompanies the disappointment.” –Simon Newcomb</p></blockquote> <p>On August 21st, a total solar eclipse will travel coast-to-coast across the United States, bringing darkness during the day to portions of 14 separate states. The last time such an event occurred was 99 years ago, back in 1918. Back then, Einstein’s General Relativity still had not been proven, and this eclipse not only provided that opportunity, but held an opportunity for America to rise to scientific prominence in the world.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/SE1918Jun08T.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36456" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/SE1918Jun08T-600x601.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="601" /></a> The path of the total solar eclipse of 1918. Image credit: Eclipse Predictions by Fred Espenak, NASA's GSFC. </div> <p>The U.S. Naval Observatory sent a team of physicists to Baker City, Oregon, to attempt to make the critical observations. If Einstein was right, starlight would deflect during the day the closer a star’s position was to the Sun. If nature was kind to those fastidious observers, the data could indicate which theory, Newton’s or Einstein’s, was correct. But at the critical moment, the Americans were defeated by nature itself, in the form of clouds.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/HowardRussellButlerEclipse.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36457" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/08/HowardRussellButlerEclipse-600x424.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="424" /></a> Print of eclipse painting by Howard Russell Butler, 1918. </div> <p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/08/04/americas-previous-coast-to-coast-eclipse-almost-proved-einstein-right/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Still, the last Great American Eclipse almost proved Einstein right. As the 2017 eclipse approaches, take a look back at a little-known slice of American history!</a></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Fri, 08/04/2017 - 01:01</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/gravity" hreflang="en">gravity</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/relativity-0" hreflang="en">Relativity</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545546" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501824691"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ethan Siegel: "The next total solar eclipse, in 1919, was observed by two teams led by Arthur Eddington: one in South America and one in Africa. By combining data from both teams, a number of stars were not only successfully observed, they were observed to be deflected by the Sun's gravity by an amount in accord with Einstein's predictions, not Newton's."</p> <p>Repeating the lie until it becomes truth?</p> <p>Sabine Hossenfelder: "As light carries energy and is thus subject of gravitational attraction, a ray of light passing by a massive body should be slightly bent towards it. This is so both in Newton's theory of gravity and in Einstein's, but Einstein's deflection is by a factor two larger than Newton's. [...] As history has it, Eddington's original data actually wasn't good enough to make that claim with certainty. His measurements had huge error bars due to bad weather and he also might have cherry-picked his data because he liked Einstein's theory a little too much. Shame on him." </p> <p>Discover Magazine: "The eclipse experiment finally happened in 1919. Eminent British physicist Arthur Eddington declared general relativity a success, catapulting Einstein into fame and onto coffee mugs. In retrospect, it seems that Eddington fudged the results, throwing out photos that showed the wrong outcome. No wonder nobody noticed: At the time of Einstein's death in 1955, scientists still had almost no evidence of general relativity in action." </p> <p>Frederick Soddy: "Incidentally the attempt to verify this during a recent solar eclipse, provided the world with the most disgusting spectacle perhaps ever witnessed of the lengths to which a preconceived notion can bias what was supposed to be an impartial scientific inquiry. For Eddington, who was one of the party, and ought to have been excluded as an ardent supporter of the theory that was under examination, in his description spoke of the feeling of dismay which ran through the expedition when it appeared at one time that Einstein might be wrong! Remembering that in this particular astronomical investigation, the corrections for the normal errors of observation - due to diffraction, temperature changes, and the like - exceeded by many times the magnitude of the predicted deflection of the star's ray being looked for, one wonders exactly what this sort of "science" is really worth." </p> <p>New Scientist: "Enter another piece of luck for Einstein. We now know that the light-bending effect was actually too small for Eddington to have discerned at that time. Had Eddington not been so receptive to Einstein's theory, he might not have reached such strong conclusions so soon, and the world would have had to wait for more accurate eclipse measurements to confirm general relativity." </p> <p>Stephen Hawking: "Einsteins prediction of light deflection could not be tested immediately in 1915, because the First World War was in progress, and it was not until 1919 that a British expedition, observing an eclipse from West Africa, showed that light was indeed deflected by the sun, just as predicted by the theory. This proof of a German theory by British scientists was hailed as a great act of reconciliation between the two countries after the war. It is ionic, therefore, that later examination of the photographs taken on that expedition showed the errors were as great as the effect they were trying to measure. Their measurement had been sheer luck, or a case of knowing the result they wanted to get, not an uncommon occurrence in science."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545546&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hYCK2AiIoZPu-dkvHYSlq8t4D7cY7ffxvyaqW5qQNFw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pentcho Valev (not verified)</span> on 04 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545546">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545547" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501828893"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>PV, does your wall of text say anything about more recent measurements of gravitational lensing? Just 2 articles from this blog:</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/04/20/how-gravitational-lensing-show/">http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/04/20/how-gravitational-le…</a></p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2010/07/16/see-a-quasar-gravitationally-l/">http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2010/07/16/see-a-quasar-gravita…</a></p> <p>We get it you don't like Einstein or relativity, but a bunch of quotes about luck and errors in 100 year old experiments when there are a bunch of more recent/accurate measurement isn't going to convince anyone that reads here, you know that. You have yet to engage one of these topics you don't agree with saying WHY it is wrong or the actual data/measurements you have to back it up. </p> <p>Engage the people who read hear with something substantial for a change.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545547&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="U41PbghSmj5BA3yQ_OhX5sd1voHz3VZTbpB-GCk_P8Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">rich r (not verified)</span> on 04 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545547">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545548" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501860771"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And nobody since 1919 has bothered to do this test during an eclipse, with better equipment? Or has Big Einstein silenced them all? Watch out, YOU may be the victim of BE's reign of ERROR!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545548&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GaMK5LfLZVCKMVQmL0C5fni7SRvZ49wpAc1jMCeBves"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MobiusKlein (not verified)</span> on 04 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545548">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545549" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501867656"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A quibble, you state "Meanwhile, the continental United States wouldn't see another eclipse until the present day, a streak that will finally come to an end next year: on August 21, 2017."</p> <p>I watched a total solar eclipse in North Dakota back in 1979. Last I checked, we are still in the continental U.S. The coming eclipse will be the first coast to coast eclipse in 99 years, but will be the first visible in the continental U.S. in 38 years.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545549&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="r237gWaT0wBQB-Ee1AMWy58ESroSQN_jxAA_ByYaNt4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">justawriter (not verified)</span> on 04 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545549">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545550" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501870082"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>While snarky, I mean to elucidate a real point:<br /> Science must be reproducible. Given that there have been about 100 eclipses on earth since 1919, some enterprising skeptic or another has had ample time to make their name disproving Einstein. </p> <p>Seriously, if somebody does the measurements, and shows that Einstein was wrong, they get a Nobel Prize.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545550&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QNabWN5e5gcL1utg8ijcJ9lo16KTBDfVx1Sq6pLSY90"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MobiusKlein (not verified)</span> on 04 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545550">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545551" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501898910"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It may well be true that the “solar eclipse test” of Sir Arthur has been replicated. When is the last time you remember the New York Times and the Illustrated London News reporting the successful repetition of an experiment?</p> <p>Assuming for the sake of argument that it has not been done, I’d hazard a guess that the reason for the non-event is because other tests of GR have been performed, and that their results were consistent with the results predicted by GR. Why use an archaic technique to test (and if successful, confirm) a theoretical prediction when more accurate and less expensive experiments are at hand?</p> <p>Our good Pentcho Valev has provided a relevant quote from Dr. Soddy, “… in this particular astronomical investigation, the corrections for the normal errors of observation – due to diffraction, temperature changes, and the like – exceeded by many times the magnitude of the predicted deflection of the star’s ray being looked for …” Sending multiple science teams to remote corners of the earth for extended periods to secure a set of photographs during an interval lasting only a few minutes is not only a risky experiment and non-trivial effort, but includes a price tag that discourages doing so on a whim. </p> <p>There is an abundance of alternative confirmations of GR; the one you likely carry with you in your smartphone is the GPS courtesy of the U.S. DoD. The mere fact that GPS hails from that source may cause some to pause and question its effectiveness, but then they would also need to call into question GLONASS (Russian), and Galileo (EU). All three satellite navigation systems rely on theoretical predictions from both Special and General Relativity to provide your location to within 5 to 10 meters. </p> <p>Should you be interested in learning how this GPS “experiment” confirms GR hundreds of thousands of times each day, you can follow this link: <a href="http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html">http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545551&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qmU30GNwHPRwvKloUqBWKqrMY_rBbvyaGN-4fg4P1HU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 04 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545551">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545552" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501911096"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@John #5</p> <p>The GPS confirmation is fraudulent, like all other confirmations of Einstein's relativity. One calculates the distance between the satellite and the receiver by multiplying the time by Einstein's constant speed of light, obtains a wrong value (because the speed of light is variable, not constant), "adjusts the time" in order to fix the wrongness, and finally Einsteinians inform the gullible world that Einstein's relativity is gloriously confirmed: </p> <p>Quote: "Your GPS unit registers the exact time at which it receives that information from each satellite and then calculates how long it took for the individual signals to arrive. By multiplying the elapsed time by the speed of light, it can figure out how far it is from each satellite, compare those distances, and calculate its own position. [...] According to Einstein's special theory of relativity, a clock that's traveling fast will appear to run slowly from the perspective of someone standing still. Satellites move at about 9,000 mph - enough to make their onboard clocks slow down by 8 microseconds per day from the perspective of a GPS gadget and totally screw up the location data. To counter this effect, the GPS system adjusts the time it gets from the satellites by using the equation here. (Don't even get us started on the impact of general relativity.)"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545552&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oi3pMESc9DTC5PQhFYtwT4x-7cDbAaoSIBng8Jz8HWo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pentcho Valev (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545552">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545553" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501914630"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>“The GPS confirmation is fraudulent …”</p> <p>That truth claim is contradicted by the success of the various SatNav systems.</p> <p>They all integrate both Special and General Relativity predictions into their design (in which the speed of light in a vacuum is a constant), and as these engineering efforts perform accuracy as predicted by the theories, the “experimental results” confirm the theories many times each day.</p> <p>I do recommend you read up on the subject. The article at the link I provided is quite lucid.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545553&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OwKMuecrUGCN2yrgrG1HzVsmVToHeZEdffU-AVJoYhs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545553">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/08/04/americas-previous-coast-to-coast-eclipse-almost-proved-einstein-right-synopsis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 04 Aug 2017 05:01:46 +0000 esiegel 37056 at https://www.scienceblogs.com The sights, safety, and science of the great american eclipse (Synopsis) https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/07/27/the-sights-safety-and-science-of-the-great-american-eclipse-synopsis <span>The sights, safety, and science of the great american eclipse (Synopsis)</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"...and the Sun has perished out of heaven, and an evil mist hovers over all." -Homer's Odyssey</p></blockquote> <p>The great american eclipse is coming, and you're in luck! This astronomical sight is unlike anything else that occurs on Earth (or any rocky planet in the Solar System), and there are three incredible stories that it teaches us about the world. First, there's the incredible story about the Moon, Earth, and Sun in orbit, teaching us about our solar system, alignments, and even the curvature of the Earth.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/07/Total-solar-eclipse-illustration.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36430" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/07/Total-solar-eclipse-illustration-600x450.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="450" /></a> An illustration of the Sun-Moon-Earth configuration setting up a total solar eclipse. The Earth's non-flatness means that the Moon's shadow gets elongated when it's close to the edge of the Earth. Image credit: Starry Night education software. </div> <p>Second, there's the story of the sights and what you'll be able to view, from the Sun's corona to stars and planets during the day to the Moon's shadow gracing the sky. And finally, there's the story of safety, and how to keep yourself from damaging your eyes, which is incredibly important since you won't feel the damage until hours after you've done it!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/07/eclipse-totality-sassendalen-jamet-1200x800.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36429" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/07/eclipse-totality-sassendalen-jamet-1200x800-600x400.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="400" /></a> While most of the sky will darken, there are portions during a total eclipse that will remain bright, as the Moon's shadow is smaller than your view of the entire 360-degree horizon. Image credit: Luc Janet. </div> <p><a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/07/27/the-sights-safety-and-science-of-the-great-american-eclipse/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Learn all about the sights, safety, and science of the great american eclipse, and get all the information you need to make the most of this incredible experience!</a></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Thu, 07/27/2017 - 01:48</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar-system" hreflang="en">Solar System</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/stars" hreflang="en">Stars</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545367" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501299935"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>While there are many different eclipse glasses vendors, I purchased mine here. They are inexpensive and certified. <a href="http://www.eclipse2017.org/2017/eye_safety.htm#">http://www.eclipse2017.org/2017/eye_safety.htm#</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545367&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LoiPUhomHJ4_CZ9LYHHH6-wOVoRgadJAKV8salf926I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545367">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/07/27/the-sights-safety-and-science-of-the-great-american-eclipse-synopsis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 27 Jul 2017 05:48:25 +0000 esiegel 37049 at https://www.scienceblogs.com Humanity needs science to survive and thrive (Synopsis) https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/07/25/humanity-needs-science-to-survive-and-thrive-synopsis <span>Humanity needs science to survive and thrive (Synopsis)</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"Bad times have a scientific value. These are occasions a good learner would not miss." -Ralph Waldo Emerson</p></blockquote> <p>The enterprise of science is one of the most misunderstood in all of society. Some view it as its own religion; others view it as a political ideology gussied up in smart-sounding clothes; still others view it as open to interpretation. But science is none of those things, and is rather the full suite of knowledge humanity has accumulated along with our process of discovery, investigation, and ongoing hard work.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/07/jsc2013e078097.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36422" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/07/jsc2013e078097-600x399.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="399" /></a> Astronaut candidates Tyler N. (Nick) Hague, Andrew R. Morgan and Nicole A. Mann, as they look over a chart that will help sustain them for three days in the wilderness. Image credit: NASA / Lauren Harnett. </div> <p>When we look at why humanity is so successful as a species, it's rooted in our ability to understand the natural world. We've learned how a variety of systems work, independently and together, and have figured out how various influence affect it. This has led to advances in everything from agriculture, health, safety, and medicine to Earth science, astronomy, and particle physics.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/07/heic1501b-1200x1125.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36423" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/07/heic1501b-1200x1125-600x563.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="563" /></a> The stars within and beyond the Pillars of Creation are revealed in the infrared. While Hubble extends its view out to 1.6 microns, more than twice the limit of visible light, James Webb will go out to 30 microns: nearly 20 times as far again. Image credit: NASA, ESA/Hubble and the Hubble Heritage Team. </div> <p><a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/07/25/humanity-needs-science-to-survive-and-thrive/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Without science, stagnation is the absolute best humanity can hope for. But with it, our success is limited only by how quickly we can move forward!</a></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Tue, 07/25/2017 - 01:47</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/environment" hreflang="en">environment</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/right-and-wrong" hreflang="en">right and wrong</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/social-sciences" hreflang="en">Social Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545307" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500963114"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"And perhaps most challenging of all: we need to always be open to the possibility that our best laws, conclusions, theories, and models may be wrong."</p> <p>And if there is no way to show that they are wrong, that is, if they are unfalsifiable? Sabine Hossenfelder states exactly that here:</p> <p>Sabine Hossenfelder: "Many of my colleagues believe this forest of theories will eventually be chopped down by data. But in the foundations of physics it has become extremely rare for any model to be ruled out. The accepted practice is instead to adjust the model so that it continues to agree with the lack of empirical support."</p> <p>Sabine Hossenfelder: "The criticism you raise that there are lots of speculative models that have no known relevance for the description of nature has very little to do with string theory but is a general disease of the research area. Lots of theorists produce lots of models that have no chance of ever being tested or ruled out because that's how they earn a living. The smaller the probability of the model being ruled out in their lifetime, the better. It's basic economics. Survival of the 'fittest' resulting in the natural selection of invincible models that can forever be amended."</p> <p>Start a discussion about the scientific method, Ethan. The experimental testing is meaningless if some preliminary requirements are not fulfilled.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545307&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I1Ep8yscFD6XvPCOwlNurWyAUcnSs_XP17TVBRDwLf0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pentcho Valev (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545307">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545308" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500968717"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Pentcho Valev #1,<br /> Actually, what humanity needs to survive is more self control rather than more technical means of centralized control over everything and everyone else. Science is great for discovering new ways to create even bigger problems by handing people who really can't handle what they already have even more leverage to screw with things.<br /> "Science never solves a problem without creating 10 more."<br /> - George Bernard Shaw<br /> .<br /> I do think Sabine Hossenfelder is an excellent example of what a good scientist or physicist is supposed to be like. Her brutal honesty is incredibly refreshing in comparison to Ethan's consensus 'happy talk' PR. She is critical of sloppy reasoning even if made by an established 'authority' as well as a skeptic of the groupthink monoculture mentality in academia posing as rigorous science. She also isn't interested in the ridiculous poetic license frequently being misused in physics for things looking 'beautiful', 'elegant' or 'natural' when the actual theory that underlies it is tenuous speculation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545308&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N2muuL-xiOvn5j0Dyf9ZnmKMXzAw3_TKWu64_jsfBNI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545308">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545309" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500974901"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@CFT</p> <p>I partially agree about Sabine Hossenfelder, but unfortunately she will also have to answer "the embarrassing question":</p> <p>Peter Hayes, The Ideology of Relativity: The Case of the Clock Paradox: "This paper investigates an alternative possibility: that the critics were right and that the success of Einstein's theory in overcoming them was due to its strengths as an ideology rather than as a science. The clock paradox illustrates how relativity theory does indeed contain inconsistencies that make it scientifically problematic. These same inconsistencies, however, make the theory ideologically powerful. [...] The gatekeepers of professional physics in the universities and research institutes are disinclined to support or employ anyone who raises problems over the elementary inconsistencies of relativity. A winnowing out process has made it very difficult for critics of Einstein to achieve or maintain professional status. Relativists are then able to use the argument of authority to discredit these critics. Were relativists to admit that Einstein may have made a series of elementary logical errors, they would be faced with the embarrassing question of why this had not been noticed earlier. Under these circumstances the marginalisation of antirelativists, unjustified on scientific grounds, is eminently justifiable on grounds of realpolitik. Supporters of relativity theory have protected both the theory and their own reputations by shutting their opponents out of professional discourse. [...] The triumph of relativity theory represents the triumph of ideology not only in the profession of physics bur also in the philosophy of science."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545309&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GSVQObQR0LU3Vz00qKBFmEXdKvu9v5sNt1iwqIUGI7Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pentcho Valev (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545309">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545310" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500986943"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Pentcho Valev,<br /> Often a scientist can be partially correct about something, or just more correct than what was previously thought as the official belief about something. I think Einstein was correct about some things, but not everything (and he said as much), and the man did make documented mistakes, he had more than a few official retractions in his own professional lifetime which took some humility that many today do not have.<br /> .<br /> If you want to have fun with poking at relativity and Big Bang folklore until someone becomes flustered, ask someone (like Ethan) if he believes in the Big Bang OR Black Holes, because the underlying theory and math of both theories is actually mutually exclusive for the most part, which he should also be aware of and is (as usual) just glossing over. You can't have it both ways mathematically.<br /> .<br /> All Black hole universes:<br /> 1.are spatially infinite<br /> 2.are eternal or static<br /> 3.can contain only one mass<br /> 4.are not expanding<br /> 5.are asymptotically flat or asymptotically curved<br /> .<br /> All Big Bang Universes:<br /> 1.are spatially finite (1 case) or spatially infinite (2 cases)<br /> 2.are finite in age, non static, non stationairy<br /> 3.contain radiation and many masses<br /> 4.are expanding<br /> 5.are not asymptotically anything<br /> .</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545310&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0e1bAB_M9NU88fRLVwL0PHDZ92X-4LPIjwWe-du8vGw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545310">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545311" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500989967"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>CFT wrote: "I think Einstein was correct about some things..."</p> <p>He wasn't. His constant-speed-of-light postulate was false, and that was fatal not only for his theory but for theoretical physics as a whole. The following quotations are suggestive:</p> <p>Joao Magueijo, New varying speed of light theories: "In sharp contrast, the constancy of the speed of light has remain sacred, and the term "heresy" is occasionally used in relation to "varying speed of light theories". The reason is clear: the constancy of c, unlike the constancy of G or e, is the pillar of special relativity and thus of modern physics. Varying c theories are expected to cause much more structural damage to physics formalism than other varying constant theories."</p> <p>Quote: "But the researchers said they spent a lot of time working on a theory that wouldn't destabilise our understanding of physics. "The whole of physics is predicated on the constancy of the speed of light," Joao Magueijo told Motherboard. "So we had to find ways to change the speed of light without wrecking the whole thing too much."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545311&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IqnwgoM9MV-nDFjRcOV4iTS5hqz8RDWrcsIGk4glEWI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pentcho Valev (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545311">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545312" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500990458"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>“The enterprise of science is one of the most misunderstood in all of society. Some view it as its own religion; others view it as a political ideology gussied up in smart-sounding clothes; still others view it as open to interpretation. But science is none of those things, and is rather the full suite of knowledge humanity has accumulated along with our process of discovery, investigation, and ongoing hard work.”</p> <p>Science is also not “… the full suite of knowledge humanity has accumulated …”</p> <p>There is, IMHO, considerably more to the full suite of knowledge humanity has accumulated than Science. </p> <p>Others are, of course, entitled to differ.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545312&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CVKcro0EkT0TPeh-1Cgrj-VrZGIvoZ-YeIyVpz9RnNY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545312">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545313" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501001041"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You have to wonder whether CFT and PV come naturally to denial of any scientific result made after 1600 or whether they choose to be modern denial mongers.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545313&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l9iimZPTPm0Pj_5PKGRnA2MoYmT6WjIoAiWwEPFhKv8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545313">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545314" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501007064"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ John #6,<br /> Yeah, I caught Ethan's blatant conflation of 'the full suite of knowledge humanity has accumulated..' with his pristine idealization of 'science'. He's not very subtle.<br /> .<br /> What Ethan really doesn't seem to want to consider is that as scientists seek to become effectively technocrats by pursuing increasing amounts of government money, power, influence, and continue to align themselves with other leftist rent-seekers, they will eventually become just another extension of a particular political group with "a political ideology gussied up in smart-sounding clothes", and then be cut off from the government money spigot.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545314&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FklQH5GZFo7YdJ_fUWQK3Vk_551JLRB2nFnkumFIZyc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545314">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545315" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501015877"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ethan wrote:</p> <blockquote><p>The enterprise of science is one of the most misunderstood in all of society. Some view it as its own religion; others view it as a political ideology gussied up in smart-sounding clothes; still others view it as open to interpretation.</p></blockquote> <p>Welcome to postmodern concept creep brought to you by higher education where words are violence and the sexes are a social construct on a spectrum. Science is all of those things depending upon who is talking. You'll find the worst offenders teaching in the Social Science Department. </p> <p>Personally I'm with you. So is a lot of America. Academia would be far better off if anyone subscribing to postmodernist ideas other than at an Architectural School was sent packing. I'm sure they'd make great baristas. </p> <p>Science doesn't care about your feelings. Science isn't made less valid by citing too many white males. Your gender doesn't matter. Your oppression rating doesn't matter. It is not about you. Get over yourself. Be smart. Work hard. Be open and honest about your ideas. Present them clearly so they can be duplicated and don't get all butt hurt when someone shoots a hole in them. They're ideas. They aren't you. Most of all, stop redefining words to dress up your stupid ideas in unearned validity.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545315&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mk26jMP8JWXZgSiJhKxtDoc4Z72cok9qnPers2FA4vc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denier (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545315">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545316" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501082400"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As of 7/26/2017 We found &amp; turned off Global Warming for the last time hopefully. The species that implemented their Organism was NOT from our Universe, but left earth MAY 2017 for deep space. Also all freshwater lakes on earth each tie in with a ocean &amp; each's level depends on pressure from that ocean. In the year 2000 A great Lake lost 7 feet of water in 2 day's. My solution for the massive load of freshwater on top of saltwater in Iced territory's can be extracted by each Nation. Dig channels &amp; lakes throughout each nation &amp; put this freshwater in by using cargo ships with heavy duty suction equipment on board with incoming lines over the sides of each ship at least 3 feet underwater. Extract it out head home &amp; unload into channels then back for more. By the time its gone all land taken by 40 years of Global Warming will be back to being dry again. Global Command</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545316&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aupvX3ZZbu0L4V1_Zt9YxpFqYYrymjov1n289JrIeQQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael J. Schmitz (not verified)</span> on 26 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545316">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1545317" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501149091"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Stability is seen here as 'stagnation'.</p> <p>Stability is what is needed to preserve the relationship with the planet - or we continue to rape and outgrow it. Many indigenous tribes lived in harmony with the environment - taking what could be replenished. They survived thus for a long time. We are accelerating out of control now.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1545317&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_smILZ35HCZShjXSZlfxGJ6E7n4I4tgGPw2hiZ-c8gM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Moffatt (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1545317">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/07/25/humanity-needs-science-to-survive-and-thrive-synopsis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 25 Jul 2017 05:47:08 +0000 esiegel 37047 at https://www.scienceblogs.com Trump's NASA Budget Eliminates Education Office, Plunging America Into The Dark (Synopsis) https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/05/25/trumps-nasa-budget-eliminates-education-office-plunging-america-into-the-dark-synopsis <span>Trump&#039;s NASA Budget Eliminates Education Office, Plunging America Into The Dark (Synopsis)</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"First Rate People hire first rate people. Second rate people hire third rate people." -Hermann Weyl</p></blockquote> <p>So, here we are, encountering one another on the internet. There’s a really good chance that this is because you have some interest in space, science, astronomy, astrophysics, or some related area. Although I am an astrophysicist with a Ph,D. in theoretical physics, my focus over the past decade or so has been on education and public outreach: science communication.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/05/631-hubble-james-webb-space-telescope-comparison.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36180" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/05/631-hubble-james-webb-space-telescope-comparison-600x320.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="320" /></a> As we're exploring more and more of the Universe, education and outreach becomes more vital than ever if our society wants to be informed about what and where the 'cutting edge' of science is. Image credit: NASA, HST and JWST science teams. </div> <p>There’s an incredible Universe out there that we’re exploring, and the more we learn about it, the more effort we need to put into education and outreach if we want a society that’s with us on the cutting edge. That understands where we are and what we’re doing; that creates valuable opportunities for the next generation of scientists to participate and contribute to the enterprise of science.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/05/Average.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36181" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/05/Average-600x402.jpg" alt="" width="600" height="402" /></a> The results of the latest OECD study spanning 72 countries placed the United States as 'average' in science, ranking 25th. Image credit: the latest triannual OECD PISA assessment, 2015. </div> <p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/05/25/trumps-nasa-budget-eliminates-education-office-plunging-america-into-the-dark/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">So why, then, would we be okay with just eliminating NASA’s Office of Education? If we care about America, we won’t be. Read on.</a></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Thu, 05/25/2017 - 02:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/physical-sciences" hreflang="en">Physical Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544369" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495692950"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Science facts are the enemy of this administration and their ilk. NASA could have all the "education" money it wanted if it would just teach that the Earth is 5000 years old, and that evolution and climate change are myths.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544369&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dMMUcYo0-CjB2eMI_cauWycP7msm3-m6L6EybJqfk3U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Art Glick (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544369">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544370" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495696097"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>forbes.com has been down and out for some time now...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544370&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bLfSRn3L3uYhBbdejtckrMO-9qlo4jKonTXgVhTvDLQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="In Hell&#039;s Kitchen (NYC)">In Hell&#039;s Kitc… (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544370">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544371" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495697584"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ethan wrote</p> <blockquote><p>…according to the latest results from the OECD, the United States ranks 25th worldwide in science education, well behind Vietnam, China, Japan, Korea, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand, among many others.</p></blockquote> <p>Also according to the OECD, the United States spends more per student than any county in the world.</p> <p><a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/">http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-stud…</a></p> <p>We spend more. We get less.</p> <p>@Ethan wrote</p> <blockquote><p>…the children, students, teachers, and adults all over the world who benefit from the opportunities and knowledge that the office provides simply aren't worth it. </p></blockquote> <p>Statements like this are a big part of the problem. It is as if you just returned from the slave market where you went to buy some new servants and were dismayed at how much some of them cost now. Stop trying to hang price tags on human beings.</p> <p>We’re talking about purchasing a service and discussing the historical cost effectiveness of what we’ve purchased. From the metrics gathered by the OECD we are being ripped off. How do we get our cost-to-performance ratio more in line with the rest of the world? Either how do we get our students to be #1 without increasing costs? –OR- How do we reduce our costs by 25 places so that our #25 ranking is justified?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544371&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eyXfvsJB7P-QDFTqABUscHYE7mL3qXUeNDhCygPpHv8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denier (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544371">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544372" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495702552"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbG-p8qKbuFnPOdkm0XgwJpUvzHSvWM84-geOCF38pw/edit#">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbG-p8qKbuFnPOdkm0XgwJpUvzHSvWM84-g…</a></p> <p>Progress in amateur science</p> <p>Starting today and continuing for the next few weeks, the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (MFMP), an international effort, begins testing of a number of LENR reactors that have been developed by amateur scientists from India, Eastern Europe, and Russia. This effort is crowd funded and staffed by volunteers from around the world. These tests in their entirety are totally open and can be viewed in total and in real time or viewed as archived on the internet.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544372&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i8c2C_QRrSYC5XD1XxwKciLpONioGQiGTvQU-hKewgk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Axil (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544372">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544373" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495705729"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Denier</p> <p><i>"Statements like this are a big part of the problem."</i></p> <p>Isn't the actual 'problem' the national dept that is skyrocketing and becoming astronomical? Banks that were fraudulent and needed to be bailed out!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544373&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="u_CXBysmjCLNKlhtROlJ8tsOjN3i-WBah5vTSqb4yFA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Elle H.C. (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544373">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544374" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495724063"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>We’re talking about purchasing a service and discussing the historical cost effectiveness of what we’ve purchased.</p></blockquote> <p>Governments are not designed or intended to <i>make</i> money, they are designed to <i>spend</i> it on things deemed worthwhile by its citizens.</p> <p>The current strategic goals of NASA - i.e., the things you, the taxpayer, are paying it to accomplish - are: "1. Expand the frontiers of knowledge, capability, and opportunity in space.<br /> 2. Advance understanding of Earth and develop technologies to improve the quality of life on our home planet. 3. Serve the American public and accomplish our Mission by effectively managing our people, technical capabilities, and infrastructure."</p> <p>Educating the American public about its exploration feeds directly into 1 and 2. Its very clearly part of their mission.</p> <blockquote><p>How do we get our cost-to-performance ratio more in line with the rest of the world?</p></blockquote> <p>I recommend a very conservative investment strategy, so I'm sure you'll get behind it, right? Trickle down economics! Give huge tax breaks to teachers and school administrators. That free up their economic and intellectual resources to be invested elsewhere, which will spur educational growth.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544374&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Rd6_DEsSkheynaRKRnif5Lk7PDtisWKCHEPsfRcOrhM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">eric (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544374">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544375" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495743512"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@eric wrote:</p> <blockquote><p>Trickle down economics! Give huge tax breaks to teachers</p></blockquote> <p>Giving tax breaks to poor people?!? Ewww. Besides, that isn't trickle down economics. Secondly, teachers and school administrators are already eligible for MASSIVE tax giveaways far larger than what they pay in taxes. It is called the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) Program and teachers are using it to wipe out six-figure student loan debts. ...at least until Trump kills it which he's threatened to do.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544375&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9q2srK64d4xvBMUrOp5KGlUk-u7ifigMmxNGwkxLHnU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denier (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544375">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544376" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495751936"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ethan,<br /> "OMG, think of the children!!!!!! How will they learn about science if the government doesn't tell them to???" Alarmist much? Everyone knows who you voted for, so please, tone down the fake 'dark ages' hysteria.<br /> .<br /> If it takes a government PR office to get you interested in science, you really aren't very interested in science. It also isn't the governments job to tell you what to think about science or what you should or should not be interested in, it never was.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544376&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DVcdXF2dUfcoAs6u9SQEZOx3oO6EVR9Agt50ERhBv94"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544376">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544377" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495785567"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Giving tax breaks to poor people?!? Ewww. Besides, that isn’t trickle down economics. Secondly, teachers and school administrators are already eligible for MASSIVE tax giveaways far larger than what they pay in taxes. It is called the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) Program and teachers are using it to wipe out six-figure student loan debts. …</p></blockquote> <p>Yes, helping the poor is not something decent right-wingers think is important.</p> <p>deniers hyperbole on the loan forgiveness system aside, there is a simple way to reduce the size of loans: fund education at the rate is used to be, and should be, funded, instead of continually cutting back as the anti-knowledge right have been doing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544377&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0Os6n3jz_8_Oeyiy1Bcg816LMNXKd9zbtGna0_io4G8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 26 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544377">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544378" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495929313"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#8<br /> "If it takes a government PR office to get you interested in science, you really aren’t very interested in science. It also isn’t the governments job to tell you what to think about science or what you should or should not be interested in, it never was."</p> <p>Shit, you mob are screwed if this attitude prevails.<br /> Children should have a grounding in science, irrespective<br /> of anything else.<br /> Or they will end up dumber than dog shit, reading astrology<br /> as if that were reality, not able to understand the basics of<br /> any field. Not savvying why water gets hot in a pot on the stove.<br /> Not able to judge at a very simple level whats wrong with<br /> some ideas some people spout.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544378&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0bzX8isAYHvfsFIILJzSGnfHqmgoHaiO0aasqYwgB5c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Li D (not verified)</span> on 27 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544378">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544379" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1495930251"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just so yas know, in case ya dont, much of the<br /> world thinks americans are half witted imbeciles.</p> <p>Examples like this 3 minute video shown on<br /> Australian government television dont help.</p> <p><a href="https://youtu.be/q566ys0sqVQ">https://youtu.be/q566ys0sqVQ</a></p> <p>I know its cherrypicked crap. But i only know it<br /> is because i know about the concept of cherrypicking.<br /> The very basics of data need to be taught to all kids.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544379&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bQAba3XGArrZdOnBGjbVx2A5wPnnPtBPqnsg1xrsgP4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Li D (not verified)</span> on 27 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544379">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1544380" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1496013898"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Li D,<br /> No one said children should not have a good grounding in science. Ethan was merely kvetching about Trump because he lacks an actual topic to talk about.<br /> In America we already have way too much government, much of it redundant, and much of it dysfunctional . Education is not really the purpose of the federal government, it should be left to the states, local communities, and parents, not bureaucrats in Washington looking for interesting new ways to waste money.<br /> I you are waiting for the government to tell you what to think about anything, you're already a lost cause.<br /> Just so yas know, I think much of the world are half witted imbeciles. It's not exactly news, or a quality limited by national borders don't cha know...some of them even live in Australia.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1544380&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gAd8btr-NGrxKXWeKqMlOEy8SvEw8SX-Wx_IcsfdVm4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 28 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1544380">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/05/25/trumps-nasa-budget-eliminates-education-office-plunging-america-into-the-dark-synopsis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 25 May 2017 06:00:25 +0000 esiegel 36984 at https://www.scienceblogs.com How To Prove Einstein's Relativity For Less Than $100 (Synopsis) https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/04/27/how-to-prove-einsteins-relativity-for-less-than-100-synopsis <span>How To Prove Einstein&#039;s Relativity For Less Than $100 (Synopsis)</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"The experiments that we will do with the LHC [Large Hadron Collider] have been done billions of times by cosmic rays hitting the earth. ... They're being done continuously by cosmic rays hitting our astronomical bodies, like the moon, the sun, like Jupiter and so on and so forth. And the earth's still here, the sun's still here, the moon's still here." -John Ellis</p></blockquote> <p>Relativity, or the idea that space and time are not absolute, was one of the most revolutionary and counterintuitive scientific theories to come out of the 20th century. It was also one of the most disputed, with hundreds of scientists refusing to accept it. Yet with less than $100 and a single day’s worth of labor, there’s a way you can prove it to yourself: by building a cloud chamber.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/04/FFGR04HHE7D9G5D.LARGE_.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36066" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/04/FFGR04HHE7D9G5D.LARGE_-600x400.jpg" alt="A completed cloud chamber can be built in a day out of readily-available materials and for less than $100. You can use it to prove the validity of Einstein's relativity, if you know what you're doing! Image credit: Instructables user ExperiencePhysics." width="600" height="400" /></a> A completed cloud chamber can be built in a day out of readily-available materials and for less than $100. You can use it to prove the validity of Einstein's relativity, if you know what you're doing! Image credit: Instructables user ExperiencingPhysics. </div> <p>An old fishtank, some 100% ethyl or isopropyl alcohol, a metal base with dry ice beneath it and only a few other steps (see the full article for instructions) will allow you to construct a detector capable of seeing unstable cosmic particles. Yet these particles -- and you’ll see about 1-per-second -- would never reach Earth’s surface if it weren’t for relativity!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/04/muon_shower.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36065" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/04/muon_shower-600x865.jpg" alt="While cosmic ray showers are common from high-energy particles, it's mostly the muons which make it down to Earth's surface, where they are detectable with the right setup. Image credit: Alberto Izquierdo; courtesy of Francisco Barradas Solas." width="600" height="865" /></a> While cosmic ray showers are common from high-energy particles, it's mostly the muons which make it down to Earth's surface, where they are detectable with the right setup. Image credit: Alberto Izquierdo; courtesy of Francisco Barradas Solas. </div> <p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/04/27/how-to-prove-einsteins-relativity-for-less-than-100/" target="_blank">Come learn how you can validate Einstein’s first great revolution all for yourself, and silence the doubts in your mind. Nature really is this weird!</a></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Thu, 04/27/2017 - 02:01</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/physics" hreflang="en">Physics</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543879" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493275638"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>$100? Spendthrift. Why not just run a current through a pair of wires and watch as they attract (or repel) each other. Special relativity at work, as even the slow drift velocity is enough to unbalance the effective balance between the forces exerted by moving electrons and stationary protons.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543879&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="asktw2xWqBU8t-TIdmJf-ipC1eCsIdhWmcD1fC3fknU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">D. C. Sessions (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543879">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543880" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493277256"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I like this example, short clip, because it's high quality:<br /><a href="http://imgur.com/gallery/ZZX2fXq">http://imgur.com/gallery/ZZX2fXq</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543880&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Qw3tSrNe3dmF-9CNiscC7bnm00LReepU-sfmLvfrEj4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Elle H.C. (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543880">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543881" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493281197"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I had read somewhere that one time a reporter said to Einstein "There are hundred professors who say you are wrong."<br /> Einstein answered "If I was really wrong just one professor would be enough."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543881&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="argLqD9w-R6epht0oYsrC9LZ4GjQmlHa3SK4ZAl3Nks"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Frank (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543881">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543882" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493281286"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>was thinking of building a cloud chamber for years. It really is as easy as Ethan says. Just I can't get hold of dry ice for the life of me. </p> <p>The only problem and why I gave up is that it's not really sustainable (other than hooking it up to a freezer). It only works as long as you feed it dry ice, or keep the temperature at some -10'C. Which is only about 15-20 minutes for DiY setup.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543882&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QZKsigLN6A6_LY0TIWYCRRovvinlwznCTru1Tv1uH_s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sinisa Lazarek (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543882">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543883" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493281593"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>p.s. </p> <p>you don't actually need a cloud chamber (albeit it's simply cool), you can use your phone camera as a detector ;)</p> <p><a href="https://crayfis.io/about">https://crayfis.io/about</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543883&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yT8P25lo1m8OlXQJabPez6P_cO0IlsKZsIkQumHdU8Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sinisa Lazarek (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543883">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543884" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493282071"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Just I can’t get hold of dry ice for the life of me. </p></blockquote> <p>PeaPod (Giant's on-line food ordering service) packs their frozen goods containers with dry ice. Big chunks of it, probably close to 6" or 8" square and 1" thick. I suspect (but don't know) that similar services like Amazon Marketplace would do exactly the same thing. So if you want dry ice, probably the easiest way to get it is to order a few gallons of ice cream online. You'll get your dry ice AND a tasty treat. :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543884&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lI-NsH1x2LdJNqiO_gaUr4ppHyzTAC2KzBI1IAJjKd0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">eric (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543884">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543885" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493282711"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ eric</p> <p>except I'm not in States :)</p> <p>Dirty way is to use a CO2 fire extinguisher and blow the content into a sack.. Instant dry ice. :D But is a perfectly new fire extinguisher worth couple of minutes of watching cool stuff? .. mmm yeahh.. if someone else pays :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543885&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="R4QCsK8a0Jpgo9JD9dBy5K5xTK5B8RwmmwpML_qNqd4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sinisa Lazarek (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543885">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543886" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493283146"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Someone should invent a more practical cloud chamber similar to a plasma globe/lamp.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543886&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Gq_dzhVpcD0gb4Ec5jA0j77_YZOsXx6-CrlT4tHcbpU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Frank (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543886">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543887" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493284775"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What, you barbarians don't have door to door bulk ice cream delivery service? You have to leave your couch to buy frozen food? No wonder the US is the only superpower. I pity you. :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543887&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="R_tlme5iCWzwdb8NPA5Zg1bUltPeiUwguMvsi1XDD8I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">eric (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543887">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543888" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493286716"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Frank</p> <p>I've seen them being built with Peltier devices.. but again you end up with big rigs cause you have to remove the heat somehow and you end up with big alu heatsinks. </p> <p>The ones that run on electricity with fans are about the size of midi desktop case. </p> <p>I would love a silent cloud chamber the size of lava lamp i.e. In all honesty, it would be even a huge hit on crowd funding. I just don't think we're there yet with tech. </p> <p>@eric<br /> yeah... we actually have to burn some calories before we gain 3x as much :D But in all honesty.. no.. we don't have door to door bulk ice cream delivery service.. even without dry ice :D I can order ice cream from the store... with delivery.. but the state of it will be questionable :D We still don't realize we actually need ice cream in bulks :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543888&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="B4w-1M85__Q53VEBgcrBy3bHYYfpGZ0YxQMvHxx4BUM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sinisa Lazarek (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543888">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543889" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493287594"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Everyone</i> needs ice cream delivery in bulk. :)</p> <p>The thing I miss from my science days is quick and easy access to liquid nitrogen. So much fun. If Giant ever starts using that for packaging somehow (and I have no idea why they would, so I'm not holding my breath), I'll start ordering food from them just to get the LN.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543889&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nLzcL49YXLybAl3VUNRr0Mwr7iHXQNPqWajFQW0NUks"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">eric (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543889">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543890" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493301465"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The most 'practical' example of relativity I find helpful (especially for the layman) is making people realize how bad the GPS on your cell phone would be if you didn't account for special and general relativity.<br /><a href="http://www.brighthub.com/science/space/articles/32969.aspx">http://www.brighthub.com/science/space/articles/32969.aspx</a></p> <p>"The changes in time due to these properties of relativity total to an increase of about 38,700 ns/day and will conspire to make your GPS receiver build up errors in location that could cause it to be off on the order of kilometers after several hours—up to 10 km (6 miles) per day! The system is designed to correct for these errors by setting the atomic clocks on board the satellites to run slower than their corresponding reference on Earth before launch, so that once in orbit, and the effects of relativity take hold, the satellite’s clocks speed up and very closely match the reference on Earth. There are also corrections that are made to the satellite’s clocks to adjust for abnormalities in the satellite’s orbit that will cause their speed or altitude to drift over time."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543890&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5Scy8Fsybgx-J6DSfoNB-uKJDSivEiBFLrUiHEuSo-E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Blackband (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543890">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543891" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493302865"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>About the muon argument for length contraction:</p> <p>Those pesky little muons! They keep changing the depth of Earth's atmosphere. It's a wonder how airplanes can navigate through such an ever-changing depth of air. Not to mention... Earth's diameter keeps changing!</p> <p> What new science is this in the last century? Science gone mad?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543891&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QOLNmrdxMxALI4nXtcoRtZLG6x0P-XBsq-kLCWVXzwg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Mooney (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543891">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543892" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493330292"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hear hear, we have "for less than $100" the most powerful collider in the world, that helped us discover quarks etc. and figure out the whole Standard Model. What we see is what we got. </p> <p>So why the heck keep on waisting energy on the LHC who is far less powerful knowing that we won't be able to squeeze anything unique discoveries out of it … the rabbit is out of the hat.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543892&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CGY--QgSvlOk0yxfHsLvkeej7m7QdbTVJXyJScHjooA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Elle H.C. (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543892">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543893" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493346675"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There's also a kit at Amazon for $38</p> <p><a href="https://www.amazon.com/CL-Cloud-Chamber-Kit/dp/B0168SCCJO">https://www.amazon.com/CL-Cloud-Chamber-Kit/dp/B0168SCCJO</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543893&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ay_WFyWGKImp2N44NWfj3dhcsF2So0F-a2OrapBYQJE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Elle H.C. (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543893">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543894" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493351236"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ chelle</p> <p>" Dry Ice Required For Operation Not Included"</p> <p>you get a Petri dish and a radioactive source. And you don't need a radioactive source if you want to catch cosmic rays. So you get a Petri dish for $38... not really a great buy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543894&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="32aMYn8LvWUrLjLqJiDolsADU6FicNOBLp37sctt_dk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sinisa Lazarek (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543894">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543895" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493357384"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@SL,</p> <p>Ooops.</p> <p>Good that you read the details.</p> <p>BTW in Europe you can buy dry ice for: 2,50 €/kg Tax incl.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543895&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SfGMxuGXD-UbCTs18dU2uAeVRNgm6Yhf8SMrEMFBNE8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Elle H.C. (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543895">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543896" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493365300"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Elle,</p> <p>The difference between the LHC and cosmic rays is luminosity. The LHC cannot produce energies as high as cosmic rays, but can produce collisions at slightly lower energies much more often than what can be observed by looking at cosmic rays. This is quite important because it's generally not sufficient to observe a collision or two to see what happens; it is often necessary to look at huge numbers of collisions to truly conclude anything. </p> <p>Consider, as an example, a rather odd die. It has one hundred sides, but until it's rolled, you cannot see the markings on any of the sides. Once it's rolled, you can see the number marked on the top side. Suppose you want to study this strange die to see if the number 1 appears on any of its sides. Obviously, one roll is insufficient to conclude anything (unless of course you happen to roll a 1). If you don't roll a one, it's certainly quite possible that one of the other 99 sides does have a 1 on it. Even 100 rolls is insufficient; there is no guarantee you haven't rolled the same side twice. Each new roll without a one would increase the probability that no side has a 1 on it, but we could never be 100% sure that there is no 1 on any side. In order to be fairly confident in that conclusion, though, we could make a large number of rolls. </p> <p>This seems contrived, but quantum interactions behave quite a bit like the die I described. We cannot gain any information about the state of a quantum system until we make a measurement. The measured value is an inherently random quantity. We cannot glean any information about what other measured values would have been possible after we've made the measurement. </p> <p>Hopefully, the analogy is clear. When looking for a particular, theoretically possible, interaction arising from a particle collision at a given energy, it is not enough to observe one event. if we fail to see the proposed interaction, it's still possible that our theory is correct and the interaction could have occurred, but that just by chance it did not. The theory should also calculate a cross-sectional area for the interaction, which basically just gives the probability that the interaction will occur. Given enough chances for the interaction to occur, a negative result can rule the interaction out to a high degree of probability. Cosmic rays observations just cannot give enough opportunities for interactions to occur within any reasonable time span. The energy distribution is such that high energy cosmic rays exist, but are rare.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543896&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="q5dpZAzVz3RVVwjP8cqq5C6ciLYylSE-TH797m2PRxA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sean T (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543896">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543897" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493365521"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Michael Mooney,</p> <p>If it were possible, an observer living on the muon might well remark about how stupid humans are for thinking that the atmosphere really is hundreds of miles thick and that the earth is a sphere when anyone can see that the atmosphere is only hundreds of feet thick and that the earth is pancake shaped. You still haven't told me how you can determine which of these observers is objectively correct and which is objectively wrong. </p> <p>I know you'll state that measurements made by commoving observers are the correct ones, but why should that be so? The same laws of physics apply and work well for both observers. Both observers make valid measurements. Obviously you are proposing something beyond measurement and beyond physical laws for determining who's right and who's wrong. What is it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543897&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="s_jZNlH1B08HCmekK9JSJ9c67eFoZPdTnVAUuSNntkQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sean T (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543897">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543898" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493390434"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Sean T,</p> <p>Thanks for your explanation, but my comment was more directed at the argument that the LHC is (possibly) going to find 'new physics'.</p> <p>Sure something 'new' might surface but it won't be anything spectacular, if there would be anything 'amazing' it would have already shown up in a cloud chamber.</p> <p>It is not like the Hubble telescope that gave us sharper images, and a clearer insight, seeing what no one has seen before, the LHC more about categorizing better what we already have seen. It's not revolutionary.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543898&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JXrljg5wqYrpNGTs2gMxtYjMvzih37OlCkLtj4-LdOA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Elle H.C. (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543898">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543899" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493394272"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sean T @ # 19:<br /> " Obviously you are proposing something beyond measurement and beyond physical laws for determining who’s right and who’s wrong. What is it?"</p> <p>Yes, beyond measurement, but, no, not beyond physical laws.<br /> Yes, all "things" exist with all their intrinsic properties whether or not they are measured. They are created and exist by natural forces which can be described by physical laws.<br /> The laws of physics are the same for all things. Theories and measurement come after, as we try to understand the real physical world. (Yes it exists independent of all science.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543899&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="akhmLF9jw80S1nmz0_piAxXUzocWcUB-NLq8H_KHW-Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Mooney (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543899">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543900" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493395113"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Yes, all “things” exist with all their intrinsic properties whether or not they are measured. They are created and exist by natural forces which can be described by physical laws.</p></blockquote> <p>This quite literally <b><i>doesn't mean anything</i></b>, just like your invocation of the word "entity."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543900&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Tlb0vl5eqaGRL6sGQ9EBERZccwh_XB7nzsMnxbAc90A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543900">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543901" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493415156"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^ Oh, right: So, <i>being measurable</i>* is only a <b>sufficient</b> but not necessary aspect of a "real" "entity"? <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/04/14/how-would-the-universe-change-if-we-grew-an-extra-dimension-synopsis/#comment-579537">Let's review</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>Ontology is the study of “What it is” in the real world. It assumes a real world. This is based on the fact that <b>a real world must exist before</b> it can be observed or measured in any way.</p></blockquote> <p>I foolishly wasted time writing more here, but I now see that you've run into this whole self-contradiction problem before in the <b>over six years</b> that you've been trotting out <i>exactly the same dreck:</i> h[]tp://<a href="http://www.scienceforums.com/topic/20069-relativity-of-motion-discussion-from-%E2%80%9Cwhat-is-time%E2%80%9D/page-9#entry281223">www.scienceforums.com/topic/20069-relativity-of-motion-discussion-from-…</a>.</p> <p>* This word is graced with scare quotes in a comment above the one linked.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543901&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5tl0_woyrtHvTpIN5Lu9ZZECaVH3WWa1xtV8pPYxles"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543901">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543902" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493416376"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"but I now see that you’ve run into this whole self-contradiction problem before..."</p> <p>Then he never actually went out of it, in the first place. Whack for 6+ years and counting.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543902&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-VcOpHEDkR6kelLS2cuapc0IwqMXDqG431KLlB01x_w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sinisa Lazarek (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543902">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543903" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493417318"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>had to put this up</p> <p><a href="https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/science-theory-observation/">https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/science-theory-observation/</a></p> <p>"11. Conclusion</p> <p>Grammatical variants of the term ‘observation’ have been applied to impressively different perceptual and non-perceptual process and to records of the results they produce. Their diversity is a reason to doubt whether general philosophical accounts of observation, observables, and observational data can tell epistemologists as much as local accounts grounded in close studies of specific kinds of cases. Furthermore, scientists continue to find ways to produce data that can’t be called observational without stretching the term to the point of vagueness.</p> <p>It’s plausible that philosophers who value the kind of rigor, precision, and generality to which l logical empiricists and other exact philosophers aspired could do better by examining and developing techniques and results from logic, probability theory, statistics, machine learning, and computer modeling, etc. than by trying to construct highly general theories of observation and its role in science. Logic and the rest seem unable to deliver satisfactory, universally applicable accounts of scientific reasoning. But they have illuminating local applications, some of which can be of use to scientists as well as philosophers."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543903&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OJRIX4QGZTUqc-A7Q5kiiYyY19Xl5AxCDUb3ycEefug"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sinisa Lazarek (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543903">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543904" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493467089"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm still marveling at the wrongness of this:</p> <blockquote><p>Ontology is the study of “What it is” <b>in</b> the real world. It assumes a real world.</p></blockquote> <p>How somebody could prattle on for years and years about ontology and <i>not understand the plain meaning of the word</i> (hint: monist <b>idealism</b> is an ontological stance) utterly defies my comprehension.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543904&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j5rVfsDYD30zEJtTTTB3n0cDZTKDcL72Nv2XAw7n_0Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543904">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/04/27/how-to-prove-einsteins-relativity-for-less-than-100-synopsis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 27 Apr 2017 06:01:23 +0000 esiegel 36956 at https://www.scienceblogs.com We've lost sight of the most important rule in debating science (Synopsis) https://www.scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2017/04/26/weve-lost-sight-of-the-most-important-rule-in-debating-science-synopsis <span>We&#039;ve lost sight of the most important rule in debating science (Synopsis)</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"You must remember, my dear lady, the most important rule of any successful illusion: First, the people must want to believe in it." -Libba Bray</p></blockquote> <p>There are many times throughout history that science -- and scientists -- have gotten it wrong. And there are many topics today that are quite polarized, from the Big Bang and evolution to vaccines, fluoridation, chemtrails and climate change. There are many public debates that play out, sometimes in nasty ways, surrounding all of these topics.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/04/polio.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36062" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/04/polio-600x399.jpg" alt="A Nigerian health worker tries to immunise a child during vaccination campaign against polio. The synchronised vaccination campaign, one of the largest of its kind ever implemented in Africa, is part of urgent measures to permanently stop polio on the continent. Image credit: PIUS UTOMI EKPEI/AFP/Getty Images." width="600" height="399" /></a> A Nigerian health worker tries to immunise a child during vaccination campaign against polio. The synchronised vaccination campaign, one of the largest of its kind ever implemented in Africa, is part of urgent measures to permanently stop polio on the continent. Image credit: PIUS UTOMI EKPEI/AFP/Getty Images. </div> <p>Yet today marks the 97th anniversary of the most famous debate in the history of science, and there are important lessons from that momentum 1920 event that we seem to have forgotten today. If your goal is to convince other people that you're right, don't bother reading this. But if your goal is to arrive at a scientifically robust conclusion, and to make sense of the Universe based on that, read on.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/04/opo1115d-1200x960.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-36063" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2017/04/opo1115d-1200x960-600x479.jpg" alt="The star in the great Andromeda Nebula that changed our view of the Universe forever, as imaged first by Edwin Hubble in 1923 and then by the Hubble Space Telescope nearly 90 years later. Note, also, that the galaxy has not rotated at all in that time. Image credit: NASA, ESA and Z. Levay (STScI) (for the illustration); NASA, ESA and the Hubble Heritage Team (STScI/AURA) (for the image)." width="600" height="479" /></a> The star in the great Andromeda Nebula that changed our view of the Universe forever, as imaged first by Edwin Hubble in 1923 and then by the Hubble Space Telescope nearly 90 years later. Note, also, that the galaxy has not rotated at all in that time. Image credit: NASA, ESA and Z. Levay (STScI) (for the illustration); NASA, ESA and the Hubble Heritage Team (STScI/AURA) (for the image). </div> <p><a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/04/26/weve-lost-sight-of-the-most-important-rule-in-debating-science/" target="_blank">The most important rule in debating science is to identify what it would take to convince us that our position is wrong. Come and find out what that's all about!</a></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Wed, 04/26/2017 - 02:22</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/education" hreflang="en">education</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/right-and-wrong" hreflang="en">right and wrong</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543844" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493195016"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ethan wrote:</p> <blockquote><p>The point of a debate is to lay out your case, to successfully interpret facts and contentions that both sides are aware of (even if you don't agree with their validity), and to identify which observations, measurements, and experiments could decide the issue in either direction. Harlow Shapley, who argued for the proto-star explanation in the 1920 debate, may have been declared the victor by the onlookers...</p></blockquote> <p>I took away a very different point that we've lost sight on. I also think there was a much more famous scientific debate and interestingly, it also has the identical lost point.</p> <p>The scientific debate I'd give the #1 spot for 'most famous' is Clarence Darrow versus William Jennings Bryan during the Scopes Monkey Trial. Similar to Harlow Shapley, the wrong side won.</p> <p>My takeaway is the debate doesn't matter. You and I were on different sides when you said that doing science wasn't enough and scientists needed to become activists. I disagreed. The debate, the activism, the consensus; it doesn't matter. Continued scientific progress will sort everything out. Pulling the attention of scientists away from science so they can also engage in useless activism is counterproductive. </p> <p>At the end of the day, more and better science will win. If you want to win a scientific debate then forget the debate and focus on doing more and better science.</p> <blockquote><p>One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds.</p> <p>-Frank Zappa</p></blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543844&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-qEyAoyzbxJVyR0nCQz6GaUnLLnxRHejnc9WfpSgqIk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denier (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543844">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543845" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493195532"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"At the end of the day, more and better science will win. "</p> <p>No, as you demonstrate. The evidence for climate change is immensely strong and increasing, and folks like you, for personal reasons only,<br /> -- make no attempt to understand the science<br /> -- lie about what has been said<br /> -- utter foolish complaints about "sample size of 1" and "there are still error bars"</p> <p>In other words -- there will always be people like you who pretend to be open minded but have no intention of ever considering the data or an honest argument. </p> <p>The debate material is relevant for dealing with people who have integrity and a willingness to learn, not folks like you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543845&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6VaYIRQ7RqTWWaxUkunXkr7-ceT4jgbXRm1Qib9Nl7g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543845">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543846" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493200358"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Before precise propositions, there is guesswork. In science, or out of science. Even poetry is a proposition.</p> <p>Nearly all present established scientific theories, all the way to the most recent gene modifying cephalopods, were preceded by extremely educated guesswork. Actually all of science is somewhat more or less verified guesswork. </p> <p>That some nebulae were “island universes” was proposed and debated in the eighteenth century, including by Laplace. Laplace proposed an angular momentum theory of formation of both galaxies and solar systems. On the latter, he was viewed as wrong (although PM Winston Churchill agreed with Laplace, against consensus, in 1939!)... Until he was proven right in the last 70 years.</p> <p>Philosopher Immanuel Kant realized that the Milky Way is not the only galaxy. He wrote:</p> <p>It is far more natural and conceivable to regard them [“nebulous stars” ] as being not such enormous single stars but systems of many stars, whose distance presents them in such a narrow space that the light which is individually imperceptible from each of them, reaches us, on account of their immense multitude, in a uniform pale glimmer. Their analogy with the stellar system in which we find ourselves, their shape, which is just what it ought to be according to our theory, the feebleness of their light which demands a pre-supposed infinite distance: all this is in perfect harmony with the view that these elliptical figures are just universes and, so to speak, Milky Ways . . . .</p> <p>Kant cited as a source for some of these views Mr. Wright of Durham, an Englishman. Kant thanked David Hume to extract him from “dogmatic slumber”.</p> <p>There are all degrees of scientific knowledge, from the first guess, all the way to complete certainty. From one to another, provisional dogmas help, because they are provocations challenging us to test them. For example the various dogmas in biology of the 1960s: they were absolute, provocative, and now have been proven to be right sometimes and very wrong in other circumstances.</p> <p>The first guesses on the biological evolution, atomic theory and “Brownian” Motion, and on the Heliocentric theory, or Non Euclidean geometry, are more than 23 centuries old. Without the guesswork, first, no science would have appeared, ever. Some of those were more than guesses: Aristotle quotes six theorems in Non-Euclidean geometry (but then proceeded with his stupid physics, which ignored inertia, something introduced, in most modern fashion, by Buridan circa 1350 CE...)</p> <p>It's important to get the fact science is the product of an evolution... sometimes over millions of years, one could even say, and ought to say.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543846&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ELnGiPn8Nkz7hCX1Tj8aKBgp7tw2rCTEEjTzYyYsLAY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Patrice Ayme (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543846">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543847" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493203320"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>lim --&gt; ***</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543847&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IPMtzcf8fbDWlT78QQaWsbrAG4JdxsSApVchrklx2cE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mentifex (Arthur T. Murray)">Mentifex (Arth… (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543847">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543848" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493207299"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Former Obama Official: Climate Data Purposely Manipulated to Influence Public Opinion and Policy<br /><a href="http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/04/former-obama-official-climate-data-purposely-manipulated-influence-public-opinion-policy/">http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/04/former-obama-official-climate-d…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543848&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3VBQfgqhb4Nx3xdgHpI4fdJwmQhHDknDQrbKq3MqI3A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543848">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543849" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493208223"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>rt, stop posting fiction.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543849&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MB4DTpDNOMJcV7BDO50vTmu5swjqrarp_KXUX_dY7Sw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543849">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543850" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493208860"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Umm, Mr dean it right out of the mans mouth, see his interview at the Wall Street Journal:<br /> Opinion Journal: How Government Twists Climate Statistics<br /> 4/21/2017 8:39AM<br /> Former Energy Department Undersecretary Steven Koonin on how bureaucrats spin scientific data<br /><a href="http://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-journal-how-government-twists-climate-statistics/80027CBC-2C36-4930-AB0B-9C3344B6E199.html?mod=trending_now_video_3">http://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-journal-how-government-twists-climate-…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543850&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zlwvTn7T2EYugL7R4GdbGhzhrgkUaoXTr2BrWLQNJ_w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543850">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543851" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493211227"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ragtag Media,<br /> Climategate proved that beyond a shadow of doubt. Even in academia, politics overrules science. Michael Mann made it very clear that his climate activist 'cause' was more important than following the scientific method when he concealed overt data manipulation ("hide the decline"), and far more important than the law when he refused to release his data (under FOIA) which he was using to produce his infamous 'hockey stick' graph. Mann also believed using political pressure on colleagues to influence peer review in order to block the publication of anything that went against his claims and positions was acceptable practice...once again, to support the 'cause'.<br /> .</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543851&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9D0DgxTxR47F39kjenADORrAYQ24biTaBJ4849SkxIw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543851">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543852" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493212827"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@dean #2,<br /> Just NO.<br /> "In other words — there will always be people like you who pretend to be open minded but have no intention of ever considering the data or an honest argument. </p> <p>The debate material is relevant for dealing with people who have integrity and a willingness to learn, not folks like you."<br /> .<br /> ....excuse me?<br /> 'People like you'? 'Folks like you'?? Um, that would be anyone who disagrees with you then? Like me for instance? So unless someone agrees with your position, beliefs, or interpretation of data, or position they are blocked from the debate? seriously?<br /> As Lana from Archer would say "NOooooPE".<br /> .<br /> My dear little dean, the wet dream of being unopposed because you know THE 'truth' is the diatribe of a dictator or a religious zealot, a true believer, or an elitist snob... not a scientist.<br /> .<br /> This isn't communist China, or UC Berkeley, sweetie.<br /> You do not get to decide who gets to be a part of the debate, who is allowed to question, or what they are allowed to say, thank goodness. If you feel otherwise, might I suggest moving somewhere where you can only hear yourself rant so there will be no one to disagree with you.<br /> .<br /> Your understanding of what debate is and what it entails needs some work, child.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543852&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="A-XFz-LpflRyuIVRf8W0Dlivp0qpUyET_cKpaCBSK7U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543852">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543853" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493213412"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Did you ever read Isaiah 20:22.."It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth..."? And, don't forget verse 23.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543853&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hF4jHt6p6-iYj36BGwZXazk16NylHkDzGKkcWOJJt4I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jackie (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543853">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543854" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493216322"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@CFT<br /> And this article by Ethan AGAIN proves a sort of stockholm syndrome from folks in the science community.<br /> Ethan says this:<br /> " If you believe that something is rotten in a scientific field, or that a scientific conclusion is wrong, such as:<br /> *or you think that climate change and global warming are not happening or caused by humans,</p> <p>Then "you should ask yourself two big questions."<br /> "One is to ask, critically, what pieces of evidence are the key ones that led you to your current position. "</p> <p>OK my evidence is that a Steve Koonin was a Professor Of Theoretical Physics at Caltech, Was an Under Secretary of Science at the dept of Energy, and is the Director at NYU center for science and urban progress.<br /> Says press releases put out by the govt was about climate data and climate analysis was "MISLEADING and sometimes just WRONG"<br /> FACT,FACT,FACT<br /> Then you get Professor dean who says "rt, stop posting fiction"<br /> So I think a lot of folks in the science community are stricken with Stockholm Syndrome..</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543854&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mW83zfol_cY1NrlmYjkxk3DZFjizR_AsL0mC37KNrs0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543854">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543855" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493219096"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@dean #6,<br /> Ok, I think I figured your particular reasoning logic.<br /> A fact is whatever you believe to be true.<br /> A Lie is whatever someone else believes to be true that you disagree with (even if you don't know what it is) because it makes you look bad.</p> <p>.<br /> Calling someone a liar, after failing to do your own homework is not the hallmark of intelligence. Please school yourself on examining a link or evidence provided before making a statement.<br /> .<br /> If you had actually looked at the interview before posting (I know you think you know everything already, but you quite evidently don't) you would probably have said something different.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543855&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fFaoluEpOihHJ8snWd_DaGDlyjLBv3dIO0ZqjTUzNhs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543855">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543856" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493220590"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ethan,<br /> The one thing that really separates science from politics is that science is supposed to be politically impartial, above the fray. This is what lends credibility to scientific claims.<br /> .<br /> If you are going to politicize science, Please become familiar with the very recognized reciprocal properties of politics. Expect your position and authority to become politicized as well, which means you better get ready to debate a whole bunch of the great unwashed outside your little protected bubble of left wing academic 'consensus'. Nothing is free, especially in politics.<br /> If you wish to take money and the power of authority from the state, the state is going to want something in return. Maybe you should check out Ragtag Media's s link for just a hint of how it really works.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543856&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4aEnInSXi_MuD8GArlthEZWUEg95ckOk47h5L1223g4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543856">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543857" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493229852"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Also @ Ethan,<br /> beautiful choice to you use 'Bill Nye the science guy' in your talk on debate in science. He was just in a lovely little video called 'My Sex Junk' on his Netflix program 'Bill Nye Saves the World'.<br /> Just imagine coming home from school one day, plopping down in front of the telly, turning on Bill Nye (because he wears a white lab coat don'tcha-know) and seeing this:<br /> .<br /><a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/billy-nye-saves-the-world-netflix-tv-show-my-sex-junk-skit-video-a7703236.html">http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/billy-nye-saves…</a><br /> .<br /> Don't you feel smarter now?<br /> My goodness. That was sooooo scientific. Who knew? Thank heavens we have such luminaries trying to tell us how ignorant we little peons are, we just learn to shut up and believe what we're told by our educated betters, (people who wear while lab coats and say they do 'science').</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543857&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7qerC7VZ3vaUbAF__EeHt8YZmFE-RHqCpjSthZLyNX4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 26 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543857">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543858" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493269427"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>cft, as usual, you have no substance in your post and don't deserve an answer, but: unlike you, I'm capable of reading and understanding the issues and the results, and basing statements on facts. You should try reality some time -- it seems to be alien to you now, but you might enjoy it, even though it takes work. </p> <p>rt, that "story" has been told about the study for several years. The original version was quickly debunked, the results of the study in question were supported by later ones. </p> <p>There is no story there.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543858&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QDvoC5DcVqWkXzsv260WsZ0PC0-VvdX7k9gfqFOAB3Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543858">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543859" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493287895"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Regarding denier, CFT and ragtag media: can we have Wow back now please?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543859&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mSqDywtC2TJsrgUOnWgJPzi9ZLNQ38kK1QlfT0Qq1dQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">lloyd (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543859">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543860" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493292478"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The last thing Bill wants to see is H.L. Mencken in the audience taking notes.</p> <p>Al Gore learned the hammy art of debate dodging in divinity school</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543860&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZTxiUNKJLUuk8uX0G73Z6swoCZ8-91SAzo86uh7ufzE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Russell (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543860">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543861" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493292821"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The last thing Bill wants to see is H.L. Mencken in the audience taking notes.</p> <p>Al Gore learned the dark art of debate dodging in divinity school</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543861&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yELMb2eMK-XTX91b1l1fMKt3F9Ode-WnYE9o3xD4NXQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Russell (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543861">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543862" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493296763"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@lloyd, Maybe you could actually come up with something to say yourself instead of lurking like a vulture behind someone else's abusive comments.<br /> .<br /> @dean, </p> <p>dean, you and your pals are upset because someone has challenged you. You must not be used to actually having to defend your arguments (not insults) against someone not impressed by your arrogance.<br /> .<br /> If by story you were referring to Ragtag Medias story being debunked, how would you know, you didn't even look at the link before you put your foot in your mouth.<br /> .<br /> If by story you were referring to Climategate being debunked, I suppose since you consider anything outside of your political affiliations as a lie, that might be your interpretation. A very similar view was held by 'highly educated' Hillary Clinton supporters who swore up and down there was no story...and look at how that turned out? It turned out that 'no story there' was actually quite a big story.<br /> .<br /> For people who actually read the emails instead of doing as they were told and ignoring them ('don't pay any attention to that man behind the curtain') a more informed view is generally held of the Dr. Mann and his bogus temperature proxies and butchery of the climatic record.<br /> .<br /> While you obviously can read, you would appear to be too lazy to bother, and/or too biased to do so. Even if you disagree with someone, it is still a good idea to know their arguments and their evidence, if only to learn how to debate them and evaluate the strength of your own arguments. You most definitely don't do that, it would take effort, and you usually just double down with a little snarky comment and hide behind Wow.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543862&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="R5AfwEIZnJb7u7VJNs7xp6ldEf-6d3D2xl4kyAh_Yjs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CFT (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543862">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543863" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493310205"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@lloyd wrote:</p> <blockquote><p>Regarding denier, CFT and ragtag media: can we have Wow back now please?</p></blockquote> <p>Wow isn't banned. As far as I know he was suspended for one week and that week is done. Wow is just butthurt over it and has decided to take his incessant personal attacks elsewhere.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543863&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="m8nyM9rHqvdH3apG2Low3YP_odBrsrbiNtnhy6fIpgw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denier (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543863">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543864" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493326226"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ragtag Media</p> <blockquote><p>Former Obama Official: Climate Data Purposely Manipulated…</p></blockquote> <p>While true, it really speaks to a different issue. I’m convinced the Earth is warming. It has been for ~22,000 years. While the amount of warming is up for debate, all temperature records, be it satellite, balloon/radiosonde, or ground based show increasing temperatures. Humans have certainly contributed to that rise. Every time a person strikes a match, the fire releases joules of heat that weren’t otherwise going to happen. The heat from that tiny fire may be trivial but it isn’t nonexistent so technically the event and therefor humans have contributed to warming the planet. </p> <p>The manipulation of data is an issue because it boosts support for Federal spending. Currently there is $12 BILLION dollars being doled out yearly by the Federal Government for climate research according to the US Government Accountability Office. That figure doesn’t even include the overhead at the 40 separate Federal agencies who have budgets allocated to climate change, and that is just at the Federal level. </p> <p>For instance, on just the Preparedness and Resilience aspect of Climate Change there is money being allocated internally for study by the Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP), Council on Environmental Quality (CEQ), National Security Council (NSC), Office of Management and Budget (OMB), State Dept, Dept of the Treasury, Dept of Interior (DOI), Dept of Agriculture (USDA), Dept of Commerce (DOC), Dept of Justice (DOJ), Dept of Labor (DOL), Dept of Veterans Affairs (DVA), Health and Human Services (HHS), Dept of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), Dept of Transportation (DOT), Dept of Energy (DOE), Dept of Education (DoEd), Dept of Homeland Security (DHS), US Agency for International Development (USAID), US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE), Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), General Services Administration (GSA), Millennium Challenge Corporation (MCC), Small Business Administration (SBA), Corporation for National and Community Service (CNCS), US Trade Representative (USTR), NASA, Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI), US Postal Service (USPS), Advisory Council on Historic Preservation (ACHP), Council of Economic Advisors (CEA), National Economic Council (NEC), Domestic Policy Council (DPC), and the White House Office of Public Engagement and Intergovernmental Affairs (OPE). Redundancy much?!?!? </p> <p>I have no problem with Trump’s attempt to cut the relevant department of NASA. The instruments they collect data from are all assets of other departments, their dataset is redundant many times over with other datasets compiled from the same instruments, and they occasionally advise on satellite design in a way that NOAA has shown they can handle in-house. In this issue NASA is redundant and a total waste of money. Cutting them cuts nothing, but oh the howls of outrage about hating science and ignoring climate in the effort to keep the money rolling in.</p> <p>Everybody wants to get paid, wants to defend their budget. Creating a boogey man makes that a lot easier and that is what the embellishment is about. It doesn’t matter if it is Saddam’s WMD or Climate Change or detergent for cleaner clothes. It is just salesmanship. The vast majority of the electorate doesn’t take the time to ever think problems through. Think of it this way; if you believe the science is so strong then join in the effort to shut the spending down. We don’t need to be spending money on what we already know. If you don’t think we should cut the funding of research on climate change then admit that more study is needed. Stop talking out both sides of your face.</p> <p>Unlike debates about whose science is the better science, debates on spending are worth having and if you aren’t willing to do the work of understanding the economics then at least be honest with yourself about the value of your or lack thereof of your opinion. If demonizing the other side and talking up a tangentially related scientific topic is all you bring to a discussion about money, don’t be shocked when all you get is polite lip service while the actions taken betray that you’re being largely ignored. When money is the topic it is time for the grown-ups. The climate screechers can run along to their safe spaces.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543864&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DyJrm5lk147qn5WYUYn84tdyh8D4BHBa0ybo9qGXcUE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denier (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543864">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543865" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493441797"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>CFT wrote: "Maybe you could actually come up with something to say yourself instead of lurking like a vulture behind someone else’s abusive comments."</p> <p>Ha! Who has the stomach for that, apart from a curmudgeon like Wow. You people are impossible, there is literally nothing that can punch through your self-satisfied version of things. The only point in posting anything in response to you from time to time is to signal to the remaining sane, quiet readers that they are not alone in recognising your dishonesty. Wow accomplished that (though he also lashed out at more innocent posters).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543865&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iM-kORm7XZjcchdcsLtzW_lSZC1tZbEtwabOE5wOk6Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lloyd (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543865">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543866" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493449261"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"While true,"</p> <p>No, it is not, despite all of the mouth breathers at the denial sites and folks like rt who spread the news because they are incapable of basic understanding.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543866&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="82FAidXI3XOC5h69Krim41dL-tU9SZ45_rub8Ed8I1c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543866">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543867" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493529892"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ dean the hater, Haters gona hate. try being nice. It goes a long ways.</p> <p>@ Denier<br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx-t9k7epIk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx-t9k7epIk</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543867&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QXGuJkNi6a7X7r-iD0ZeZI6j_ro3IKizvA7jwFAYNxc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543867">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543868" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493531003"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ dean the hater #29 "folks like rt who spread the news because they are incapable of basic understanding."</p> <p>Understanding What? That there was once higher CO2 levels on the planet than there are now and life goes on?</p> <p>OR That there was once MILLIONS of Bison roaming the North American plains farting methane into the atmosphere BUT life has gone on.</p> <p>OR massive Forest Fire's<br /> OR The fact that The Devonian geologic period helped suck the co2 out of the atmosphere BUT put's more Oxygen in it and that starts the Fire cycle.<br /><a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2015/11/19/the-age-of-fire-when-ancient-forests-burned/#4a36c8925f02">https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2015/11/19/the-age-of-fire-when…</a></p> <p>So many Variables and you Al Gore worshipers think we should put the planets faith into the hands of Hollywood Liberals like Dicaprio and Charlatans like Gore.. Nope, Not Buying it..</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543868&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TF9oHYTeWJk4vgDcIttluDJkmJ6ROxw0eQX56UJnzHc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543868">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543869" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493539389"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think the purpose of Science is to describe – ideally to explain – the physical world. The purpose of Science is not to win debates. Science “wins” debates by providing a correct description or explanation of an event or process. Leave oratorical sleights of hand to others.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543869&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WCPdkRmmOBLGAfp7jCEQlHPRmW4h2ZSJSMwAMv4LO44"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543869">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543870" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493566747"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Human nature get's in the way of Science like everything else.<br /> Let's review (again) President Eisenhower's farewell address.<br /> "Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.</p> <p>The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present</p> <p>and is gravely to be regarded.<br /> Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientifictechnological elite."</p> <p>READ that And RE-READ IT...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543870&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hh_SteyVxqtNblLHKLtc09UUKXutzEN0pDAo2GpJtsY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543870">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543871" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493572600"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Was there a point in your blowy rants, RT Media? What is your payoff? Why can't you lay out a cogent point? This is a science blog. Where is your science? Why is your stuff so congruent with the tinfoil hat crowd? You seem to have similar information sources to them. .</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543871&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lvo7UAqlT0M4mZs26VIsXEfmol1ldmRYfJTDQc_WUj0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SteveP (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543871">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543872" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493576023"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@SteveP<br /> "Was there a point in your blowy rants, RT Media? What is your payoff? Why can’t you lay out a cogent point? "</p> <p>My Payoff is the TRUTH for all mankind to see. That's all.</p> <p>"Why can’t you lay out a cogent point?"</p> <p>Why cant you YOU COMPRENDE Wisdom?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543872&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9KwyKe1Zkp2fY8Xx6y071hyvJQe7hXYP62_doaTm3qc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543872">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543873" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493577981"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ SteveP<br /> Oh And your references to my" blowy rants " Do they include the historical remarks of a previous President of the United states that served in a WORLD WAR???<br /> And his Exit Speech as a Sitting PRESIDENT?</p> <p>Think Before You SPEAK Steve P but perhaps you can't BECAUSE you lack WISDOM.</p> <p>You May Be Smart, BUT, that don't make you WISE...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543873&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KWicCVN9bXwNc2VklhkBLF2IQxlqBYI-LES9MZpUGaI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543873">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543874" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493610012"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>RT Media's science free blow dries are a really refreshing respite from the reality of a world which has based its energy economy on a family of suicidally stupid fossil fuels. But don't worry. Be happy! It is future generations that will have to deal with the consequences of the choices being made today. It is their problem, Not ours! Coral free seas, shell free shell fish, swamped coasts, and re-arranged weather patterns are all insignificant side effects when compared to the all important free dumb to drive the biggest Hummer you can afford down the block to get your slushees at the handy mart. Or more importantly, sustaining the Russian economy which, were it not for fossil fuels and fossil fuel supported hackers and trolls, would have no choice but to overthrow the authoritarian mobsters and pinheads who make Russian life so, how shall we say, stunted? Bon Appétit  y'all. Enjoy your kopeks, RT.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543874&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JSCtNnDidMi4G14Pjz_0nA8tAeCA4Dwja_Y7LsaC6wY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SteveP (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543874">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543875" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493613647"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@27: it is a good speech. That's the one where he warns about the military-industrial complex. But maybe you should have paid more attention to this part of it: </p> <blockquote><p>Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we -- you and I, and our government -- must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering for our own ease and convenience the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. </p></blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543875&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="65lmxLfO4u3uF2L8vkm8FOGrGdLJ1wAIaTe015xi_4Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">eric (not verified)</span> on 01 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543875">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543876" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493617660"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>My Payoff is the TRUTH for all mankind to see.</p></blockquote> <p>Hardly, whether we look at your racist comments about Neal DeGrasse Tyson, the performance of blacks in general in education or in any other endeavor, your bigotry against people of other religions -- you wouldn't know how to spell truth if you weren't copying it from someone else's posts.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543876&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ehhvAqec5WKpNR05kS8g39Le7pdkSeBnMFUtffk0m-8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 01 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543876">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543877" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493662120"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dean, If I can contribute to a fund for your daughter/daughters that would support them in traveling to Iraq or Afghanistan to build a bridge with other cultures. Count me in for a donation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543877&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4NZnZqiJW7v4Wk5PFq6bp09ABoGSMBi9omHiTC-ECNk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ragtag Media (not verified)</span> on 01 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543877">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1543878" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493694313"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>rt, am I surprised you can't (or won't) understand the point? </p> <p>Not at all. You've never made an intelligent comment in the past and there is no sign you're going to start now.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1543878&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LnUflNv_fuB_N5-t7JfyzVb6OyIT1D6pzcVbJs5_d68"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 01 May 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1783/feed#comment-1543878">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2017/04/26/weve-lost-sight-of-the-most-important-rule-in-debating-science-synopsis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 26 Apr 2017 06:22:34 +0000 esiegel 36955 at https://www.scienceblogs.com