Dogs https://www.scienceblogs.com/ en How Dogs Won The World https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2015/11/13/how-dogs-won-the-world <span>How Dogs Won The World</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Years ago I proposed a theory (not anywhere in print, just in seminars and talks) that went roughly like this. Humans hunt. Dogs hunt. Prey animals get hunted. Each species (or set of species) has a number of characteristics such as the ability to stalk, track, kill, run away, form herds, etc. Now imagine a landscape with humans, wolves, and game animals all carrying out these behaviors, facilitated with various physical traits. Then, go back to the drawing board and redesign the system.</p> <p>The hunting abilities of humans and dogs, the tendency of game animals to herd up or take other actions to avoid predation, etc., if disassembled and reassembled with the same actors playing somewhat different roles, give you a sheep herder, a protecting breed of dogs (like the Great Pyrenees or other mastiff type breeds), a herding dog (like a border collie) and a bunch of sheep, cattle, or goats. </p> <p>Even human hunting with dogs (not herding domesticated animals) involves a reorganization of tasks and abilities, all present in non-dog-owning human ancestors and wolves (dog ancestors), but where the game are, as far as we know, unchanged. Human hunters documented in the ethnographic record, all around the world, had or have dogs, and those dogs are essential for many hunting types. The Efe Pygmies, with whom I lived in the Congo for a time, use dogs in their group hunting, where they spook animals into view for killing by archers, or drive them into nets that slow the game down long enough to be killed. The Efe actually get a lot of their game by ambush hunting, where a solitary man waits in a tree for a game animal to visit a nearby food source. He shoots the animal from the tree with an arrow. But, even then, the dog plays a role, because the wounded animal runs away. The trick to successful ambush hunting is to do it fairly near camp so you can call for help when an animal is wounded. Someone sends out a dog, and the dog runs the animal to ground. And so forth. </p> <p>Scientist and science writer Pat Shipman has proposed another important element that addresses a key question in human evolution. Neanderthals, who were pretty much human like we are in most respect, and our own subspecies (or species, of you like) coexisted, but the Neanderthals were probably better adapted to the cooler European and West Asian environment they lived in. But, humans outcompeted them, or at least, replaced them, in this region very quickly once they arrived. Shipman suggests that it was the emerging dog-human association, with humans domesticating wolves, that allowed this to work. Most remarkably, and either very insightfully or totally fancifully (depending on where the data eventually lead), Shipman suggests that is was the unique human ability to communicate with their gaze that allowed this to happen, or at least, facilitated the human-dog relationship to make it really work. We don't know if Neanderthals had this ability or not, but humans do and are unique among primates. We have whites around our Irises, which allow others to see what we are looking at, looking for, and looking like. We can and do communicate quite effectively, and by the way generally viscerally and honestly, with our glance. This, Shipman proposes, could have been the key bit of glue (or lubricant?) that made the human-dog cooperation happen, or at least, rise to a remarkable level.</p> <p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674736761/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0674736761&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=grlasbl0a-20&amp;linkId=T6THSVWJL62HVRSI">The Invaders: How humans and their dogs drove Neanderthals to extinction</a>, by Pat Shipman, outlines this theory. But that is only part of this new book. Shipman also provides a totally up to date and extremely readable, and enjoyable, overview of Neanderthal and contemporary modern human evolution. Shipman incorporates the vast evidence from archaeology, physical anthropology, and genetics to do so, and her book may be the best current source for all of this.</p> <p>This is a fantastic book, and I highly recommend it. Shipman also wrote "<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393070549/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0393070549&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=grlasbl0a-20&amp;linkId=CDSH5NYICRN4PMZ3">The Animal Connection</a>," "The <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674008626/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0674008626&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=grlasbl0a-20&amp;linkId=OAJAMZZBCLNZLOB6">Evolution of Racism</a>," "<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679747834/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0679747834&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=grlasbl0a-20&amp;linkId=GKCJ4NZAXVSLXYOG">The Wisdom of the Bones: In Search of Human Origins</a>," and several other excellent books on human evolution and other topics. Shipman, prior to becoming mainly a science writer, pioneered work in the science of Taphonomy, developing methods for analyzing marks on bones recovered from archaeological and paleontologic sites, such as those marks that may have been left by early hominins using stone tools to butcher animals. </p> <p>Seriously, go read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674736761/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0674736761&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=grlasbl0a-20&amp;linkId=T6THSVWJL62HVRSI">The Invaders: How humans and their dogs drove Neanderthals to extinction</a>. </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Fri, 11/13/2015 - 07:44</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/books" hreflang="en">Books</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/evolution-diet" hreflang="en">Evolution of Diet</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/human-evolution" hreflang="en">Human Evolution</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/neanderthal" hreflang="en">Neanderthal</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/origin-modern-humans" hreflang="en">Origin of Modern Humans</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/book-review" hreflang="en">book review</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pat-shipman" hreflang="en">Pat Shipman</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/invaders" hreflang="en">The Invaders</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/books" hreflang="en">Books</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467857" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447422006"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Must be a great book! Rushing to buy it!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467857&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Oynl0HKTK9Tkb_ljGCYmdJF2ypD6BxtIU6_aho__FeI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ugo Bardi (not verified)</span> on 13 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467857">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467858" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447434449"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I once had a dog who communicated with her gaze very efficiently. She had medication for gastric problems, and when she felt unwell, would stare at me until I noticed, then turn her gaze to the top of the fridge where the medication was kept. She then looked alternately at me and the medication until I worked out what she wanted and gave her the tablets. She only asked for her medication when she was unwell, and the tablets didn't taste nice so she wasn't trying to get a treat.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467858&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SYgSfhymp8GfTtWAdgKYAb5GGFRAd_TVUH5IVQbxyt0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MWS (not verified)</span> on 13 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467858">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467859" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447439736"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Neanderthals died out because they tried to domesticate the wrong species. So while H. sapiens was forging his productive relationship with wolves, H. neanderthalensis was engaged in a static staring contest with lynxes that alternated between "what?" and "so bored now".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467859&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RnL6od2b8JFicClJHFMSsAbBYyb6qAk8kj2dtC2Ifq8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Magma (not verified)</span> on 13 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467859">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467860" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447442491"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Magma: Good one!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467860&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0x3_QW9_YjHbOif1Wr6RQy4RUWAOujIeopLrdZ0gRHs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 13 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467860">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467861" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447442846"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Two big questions here<br /> A) why the assumption that Neanderthals could not communicate with their gaze? These were tool users, teachers, hunters. People who sat arround fires and had complex social interactions. More importantly, they were capable of socializing with humans. If gaze is key to humans, this suggests Neanderthals shared the ability to communicate and facilitate mating.<br /> 2) you need to accept an extremely early date for dog domestication to reach this conclusion. Archaeological evidence points to a date c. 15k bp. While genetic evidence may point to domestication just at the time of human neanderthal interaction, it would have been relatively uncommon and very tentative interaction between humans and wolves.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467861&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0oa6WlSka4qRpdSJtlmE4qepusRH_RFNpxZIBJO2cU8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thadd (not verified)</span> on 13 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467861">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467862" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447445712"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Added to my "to be read" list. Thanks, Greg. </p> <p>What about cats?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467862&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gpuan-shHHIzOjsPnqi_HZtwL8hmoL2eqvtOzF-nomc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">David Kirtley (not verified)</span> on 13 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467862">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1467863" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447450098"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Magma, you might be on to something.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467863&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cDBZ5cNPFQ7t3l-CCKGBdJCu1bLOsMZV4hyUEc_DUF8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 13 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467863">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1467864" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447450574"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thadd, good questions. Shipman's idea does not rely on the quirk that the unique human trait (the whites of our eyes) emerged in humans and not neanderthals, but it is what she suggests as a possibility. </p> <p>Neanderthals may not have simply been just like humans. Whether we think they were or not is more a matter of fad at this point, though I think no one sees them as senseless brutes any more. </p> <p>Humans have a collection of traits. There is no clear way to know which needed to co-evolve. Hard to say which unique human traits they may have not had, and visa versa. </p> <p>i don't have a problem with the dating of dog domestication. It has to be early and widespread if all foragers colonized all lands with them. (If that happened). The archaeological dates do not really inform us. Read Shipman's arguments on that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467864&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="M1weQIe8s_eQEuDoojWCxIdx-fnFG5RYbXKeiv2Blv8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 13 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467864">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467865" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447491364"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Looks interesting! Thanks for sharing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467865&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BC75ciRb3J1TtQ7bzZ60ck-p9HesfDhoVO2MrZjOAc4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Digital Rabbit (not verified)</span> on 14 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467865">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467866" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1447495934"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Every year, I make an introductory lesson on evolutionary biology to my students in physical chemistry. The focus is "what makes humans peculiar animals". And there are lots of features that are peculiar to humans; a very curious species. The whites of our eyes are a nice addition to the list, Others are the prorturing chin, the large number of sweating glands, the lack of a baculum in males, and more. Most are easily explainable in terms of evolutionary biology, some are rather hard: why did we (males) lose our penile bone? There are explanations, but none really convincing</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467866&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NKjvPth-PMM-GY4lojENfjbj-ShbmwBo2pUXsjQLU9c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ugo Bardi (not verified)</span> on 14 Nov 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467866">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467867" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1470305275"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Fascinating post, but I would think it is just an assumption that neanderthals didn't have dogs. The first possible dog is 32k old from Altai, and Hss is not known to live there at the time, though Neanderthal and Denisovan were. Dogs apparently lived in caves with Homo Erectus in China over a hundred thousand years ago, and monkeys have been folmed "domesticating" puppies and indoctrinating them into their clans.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467867&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="O9hFA4BwPtEOxBhEopBUcgUKRMdX83Vue-fKRQz98CA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joe (not verified)</span> on 04 Aug 2016 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467867">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1467868" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502432419"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It is my no means clear that modern humans had domesticated the dog before Neanderthals were extinct or virtually extinct.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1467868&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1wgckS_TWmD9xEbfcfYITposI4PPXaR93FJDGvtyOX0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">D F COLLINSON (not verified)</span> on 11 Aug 2017 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1467868">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2015/11/13/how-dogs-won-the-world%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:44:14 +0000 gregladen 33743 at https://www.scienceblogs.com Can Dogs Transmit Ebola? And, should Excalibur be put down? they put down Excalibur. https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2014/10/08/can-dogs-transmit-ebola <span>Can Dogs Transmit Ebola? And, should Excalibur be put down? they put down Excalibur.</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p><em>UPDATE:<a href="http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/spain-euthanizes-pet-dog-of-ebola-infected-woman/ar-BB8buoo"> They killed the dog.</a></em></p> <p><em><strong>UPDATE:</strong> I'm adding this here because it is my current post on Ebola. Thomas Eric Duncan, the person who became symptomatic with Ebola in Dallas, had died at the Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital (according to news alerts). </em></p> <p>A nurse's assistant in Spain caring for Spanish nationals returned with Ebola from West Africa contracted the disease, gaining the dubious distinction of being the first person to be infected with Ebola outside of that disease's normal range in West Africa, Central Africa and western East Africa. There is speculation that she contracted the disease by contacting the outside surfaces of her own protective gear, which is exactly what I've speculated to be a likely cause of infection in health care workers. This is not certain, however. </p> <p>Members of her family and others, including additional health care workers, are in quarantine. There is evidence that the hospital procedures were inadequate to keep a lid on Ebola in this context, and nurse's unions and others are protesting and demanding change. </p> <p>Meanwhile, the Spanish government has claimed that there is "scientific evidence" that dogs can transmit Ebola, so Excalibur, the nurse's family dog, will be euthanized and incinerated. People have gone to the streets to safe the dog.</p> <p>So, can dogs get, or transmit if they get it, Ebola? Short answer: Yes, and probably not. Here's my thinking on this, and some information.</p> <p>1) Pick a random species, or to make it easier, pick a random mammal, and test to see if it can transmit a disease known in humans. It is unlikely to be the case because diseases are to some degree adapted to exist in certain hosts, and host vary, well, by species. So it seems unlikely.</p> <p>2) On the other hand, Ebola seems to be able to infect a very wide range of mammals. Ebola resides in multiple species of fruit bats (though maybe not uniformly or equally well). A range of mammals seen to be suitable intermediates between fruit bats and humans. The mammals known to be able to harbor Ebola are diverse. It isn't like only primates can be infected. So, it seems quite possible.</p> <p>3) On the third hand, I've never heard of dogs being addressed as an issue in the current crisis in West Africa or during prior outbreaks. One would think that if dogs were a concern this would have been mentioned by someone some time.</p> <p>4) On the fourth hand, dogs in Central Africa are less likely to be house dogs, hanging around with the family on the couch, and more likely to be working dogs that spend all their time outdoors. A Spanish family pet may have hung around on the sick bed with an ill individual. I don't know about dogs in West African cities. By the way, you have to go look to see what the story with dogs there is, and it may within that context. I've noticed that westerners tend to have a rather monolithic view of how humans "elsewhere" (especially the "third world") relate to their dogs, based on a concept we hold of them, not based on actual knowledge. How dogs fit in with humans from place to place and time to time varies. </p> <p>5) I've read a good amount of the peer reviewed literature on Ebola and I can not recall anything about dogs. </p> <p>5) But ... A quick check of Google Scholar did come up <a href="http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/11/3/04-0981_article">with one study</a>. From the abstract:</p> <blockquote><p>During the 2001–2002 outbreak in Gabon, we observed that several dogs were highly exposed to Ebola virus by eating infected dead animals. To examine whether these animals became infected with Ebola virus, we sampled 439 dogs and screened them by Ebola virus–specific immunoglobulin (Ig) G assay, antigen detection, and viral polymerase chain reaction amplification. Seven (8.9%) of 79 samples from the 2 main towns, 15 (15.2%) of 14 the 99 samples from Mekambo, and 40 (25.2%) of 159 samples from villages in the Ebola virus–epidemic area had detectable Ebola virus–IgG, compared to only 2 (2%) of 102 samples from France. Among dogs from villages with both infected animal carcasses and human cases, seroprevalence was 31.8%. A significant positive direct association existed between seroprevalence and the distances to the Ebola virus–epidemic area. This study suggests that dogs can be infected by Ebola virus and that the putative infection is asymptomatic.</p></blockquote> <p>I've not looked further at the literature. This study suggests, unsurprisingly (see point 2 above) that dogs can harbor the virus. However, they don't seem to be symptomatic. Therefore, spread from a dog seems unlikely. I would think the dog could be kenneled for a few weeks, rather than being put down.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Wed, 10/08/2014 - 02:53</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ebola" hreflang="en">Ebola</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ebola-1" hreflang="en">Ebola</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/uncategorized" hreflang="en">Uncategorized</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/spain" hreflang="en">Spain</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460539" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412756184"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If they develop antibodies, then it might be that they don't harbor the virus long term. They might be asymptomatic because they have cleared the virus.</p> <p>However, not enough is known to know if they are asymptomatic carriers or asymptomatic from having cleared the virus. </p> <p>Quarantining the dog doesn't eliminate the possibility that it is an asymptomatic carrier. You could quarantine it with other dogs and see if they seroconvert. If they do, then it is still communicable. If they don't, it might still be communicable to more susceptible species (like humans). </p> <p>There is good evidence that hyenas can be asymptomatic carriers of rabies.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460539&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d1DbyRisUp0hOCLI3qVqrYF2HVgelZ-M64horiGbYcY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">daedalus2u (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460539">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460540" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412757313"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Governmental panic responses that have terrible consequences for the loved ones of people who are found to be sick have only one major effect: They increase the number of people who will hide their illnesses and try to take care of themselves, with family help, at home. If my spouse or I were infected, we would be willing to take the most drastic steps, to risk or even sacrifice one of our lives, rather than causing the World's Best Cat to be hauled away by men in moon suits and killed without comfort. CDC is laudably not encouraging the slaughter of pets, but caging the Dallas case's healthy relatives for several days in an apartment full of what they considered to be potentially infectious fomites was way too close to the medieval "board up the house" approach.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460540&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IRCRzCBJj31lI5hK_4LGkqWMAhmX-ejLt1tOsluBg40"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460540">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460541" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412757517"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, I think they should have acted immediately to move the Dallas family to a reasonable location. How hard could that have been?</p> <p>Thomas Duncan just died, by the way.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460541&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9zw8gGmtiLEmOHOBBeFqMIotMJx4V7iPYXhfXqWU-ww"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460541">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460542" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412760076"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I just saw that on Salon. A sobering reminder that while good supportive care helps, it won't save everyone - even relatively young and previously healthy people. Here's hoping all of his family are safe.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460542&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="elpD-ReNrSRJV4DvV0WMf6E3Sge-2DI41TchsMPXi7M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460542">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460543" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412761937"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Also, it brings up another question. Can American/Spanish/Whatever hospticals really give the best Ebola care?</p> <p>The assumption is they can because they are wonderful and advanced, and al you need is the Ebola Manual to adjust the wonderful advanced techniques.</p> <p>But I know for a fact this does not apply to Malaria. I have spent a lot of time interacting with US base tropical disease practitioners with little field experience, a lot of time with in field doctors in Malaria zones (in Zaire) or South African doctors who did stints in places with lots of Malaria (eg. Moz), and a vast amount of time as the only person or one of two running a clinic (on the side while doing research) where malaria was a daily issue (and a fair amount of time with the malaria being treated by various combinations of the above)</p> <p>I lost two colleagues (one a friend) to malaria because, I believe (and I am not alone in this at all, me and a lot of people including physicians think this) they were treated in the American system. </p> <p>Diseases don't come with a handbook. Treating serious diseases is very tricky and expertise from experience is vitally important, even with a magic drug.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460543&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_kTlp7RUwR2ukBp8Zf9AN9JsnIJdMM3HHoO98ZufuMs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460543">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460544" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412762055"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"If my spouse or I were infected, we would be willing to take the most drastic steps, to risk or even sacrifice one of our lives ..."</p> <p>I'm OK with that, as long as you take care not to risk the lives of the rest of us in the process. </p> <p>(Disclaimer: I have 3 of the "World's Best Cat" myself, but I can't live with the thought that I killed 3000 people trying to protect my pets from the men in moon suits.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460544&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FdqeeXsqrA6DlPDENR5mvyhF8Kj2WjTByOBF0PyFK88"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460544">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460545" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412762144"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brainstorms, how about five people? (Just trying to calibrate here!)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460545&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I7fTJLv2iXOrOKMyOru2WAbq-2zlYrjtxWZpjPEfwy4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460545">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460546" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412764571"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Given that those five would most likely be my family members...</p> <p>Sorry, kitties. We'll be sure it's quick &amp; painless. :^(</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460546&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qw0ChJWO5eng2s7FG082RH8_E-cq_kpfqLJWjNz5jMY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460546">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460547" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412765719"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brainstorms, this is something I considered at the time of Hurricane Katrina. You may remember that non-car-owning refugees were literally forced at gunpoint, under threat of summary execution, to throw their pets in the gutter like garbage and get on the evacuation buses. After seeing that, I decided that if I were in that spot, I would turn and walk away with our cat, because I would rather have her see me killed trying to save her than have her see me throw her away for no explicable reason. (We all have to die, but we don't have to let ourselves be forced to betray a friend first.)</p> <p>Human lives are not of infinite value - that's our foreign policy - and non-human lives are not of zero value, but we are expected to weigh the former more highly. And while the National Guardsmen involved deserved to die, the average citizens who are laughably claimed to be their masters did not. Therefore, as you say, in a comparable Ebola-related scenario protecting the public would have to be the highest priority.</p> <p>If my husband were sick in a pet-killing regime, he would stay at home even at the cost of foregoing possibly lifesaving care. I would stay with him, and avoid going out where I might spread virus. (We usually have several weeks of food at home, if you count all the beans.) If he died and I remained able to care for her, I would not report his death until her safety had been assured. If I knew the guys in moon suits would be going through the house no matter what, I'd self-quarantine for three weeks or try to survive the disease alone, then hide her with a friend before reporting. </p> <p>My disappearance would be harder to conceal for that long, so if I had a severe case in a pet-killing regime, I'd consider committing suicide in a way that would ensure my body wasn't found for a long time (thus it would not be a threat to the public), leaving a suicide note that made no mention of disease. The hubby could drive me to a spot close to a suitable area, then go home and self-quarantine. It's a measure of how deep his relationship with the cat is that I am pretty sure he would do that. The average powers-that-be may not care that much for their own pets, should they have any - but if they don't take into account that some do, they will provoke very counterproductive responses in those who do and are less able than I am to self-quarantine. This Spanish nurse seems fortunately to have a relatively mild case, at least so far, but it sure can't help her recovery to be alone in a locked room knowing that your faithful friend is alone in a cage waiting to get the needle.</p> <p>Finally, I note that some internet illiterati are already saying "oh, Us just have no choice but to save ourselves by deporting all brown people, isolating or outright massacring West Africans, etc. etc." - IOW all the things they wanted to do last year on some other excuse. Likewise, some ranted in rage against the missionary doctors' being brought back here and helped to survive - alleged Christians actively wanted Dr. Brantly to die, because he might give us all Ebola, because semen semen semen!!1! (I wanted to say, sweetie, just what is your line of work that you fear being exposed to strangers' semen?) When you start killing nonhumans based on a purely hypothetical, at most minute possibility that they might be a source of risk, you very easily can proceed to savage measures against humans who are a known source of real risk - first outgroup members, who tend to be seen as not having fully human status ("two-legged animals" to quote some of our favorite allies) - but as panic increases, pretty much anyone who isn't you. Holding a line that says we will not do anything that is not decent if it is not justified by known fact is the only way to stay out of that cultural death spiral.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460547&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7QVqECoeLN5Ggr5kAGe0c5wHawBJVnoprEj_jO6uXqY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460547">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460548" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412766986"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jane, it seems you do understand the big difference between Katrina &amp; an Ebola outbreak (i.e., pets/people in Katrina were in no way a trigger to a chain-reaction spread of a deadly virus).</p> <p>I understand the ties between pets &amp; their owners, and have no issues with the lengths they'll go to care for them, as long as --as you put it-- "protecting the public would have to be the highest priority".</p> <p>I think the "tipping point" where the spread of this overcomes the ability of any country's "health care system" to contain it is precariously closer than we want to imagine. Social &amp; cultural forces that come into play (and this might be one of them) that give Ebola an "assist" in spreading only brings that tipping point closer...</p> <p>I do hope that what are now culturally viewed as "savage measures" aren't ever required to contain this -- in any country. "When lack of political will meets up with cultural imperatives ..."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460548&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GrOfsJ1rnI31FCszKEH6bELByMUnhaZykyuAaCH0lXM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460548">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460549" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412767539"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I suppose I could understand a procedure where national guard or other authorities carrying out an evacuation could just skip the people who want to stay home with their pets and die, but this can not apply to minors. In that case. let the dog out, shoot the parents, and save the kids. (as long as we are talking extreme untenable cases!)</p> <p>I don't buy it, though, for the case of an infectious disease. I absolutely think the CDC or the Spanish authorities should put pets down for Ebola, or generally, though there are exceptions to that (well known historical ones that may not apply very often, like anthrax in a large scale ag setting, but those are not really pets). But I don't think society at large should be asked to trust a person who really loves her cat to do the right thing on behalf of public health on the grounds that she really really loves her cat. </p> <p>I don't really see this being an issue if the policy is simply to not automatically throw the pets in the incinerator. But if it came down to it, no, I don't agree to deputize you, Jane, to make these public health decisions.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460549&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kl5e3tfrOt8D2uK7oXmy5IyB_ilFBcgMzarSOnrRDA0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460549">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460550" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412767849"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>When a pandemic gets to the point where people start thinking massacres are "required" to control it, it's a dead certainty that massacres won't control it. It's never possible to wipe people out on that scale without having some fleeing refugees, who will scatter in every direction and have other reasons for poor health. The best shot you have is to get people to stay in place, which means making sure they are well fed and feel safe where they are.</p> <p>As for tipping points, yes. Given how little progress in improving care has been made in West Africa, even though the increase in infection rates seems to be slowing for the moment, I've heard there is real fear among certain agencies that the CDC scenarios are already more like best-case scenarios. Spain and the U.S. have to this point very minor problems indeed, but have each provided their citizens with reason to be afraid to report illness; the future consequences of that are hard to predict.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460550&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3E9s0rfsxLUZiEGcsfA3n7UrXezjbBM1onnvUl1O92Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460550">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460551" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412769271"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Greg, what??? "Let the dog out, shoot the parents, and save the kids"? WTF? Why not "Drag the kids onto the bus, let the parent stay with the dog and let them be reunited after the water recedes and the parents find new housing"? Is the point, indeed, simply to keep the worker herd obedient by culling any that aren't? </p> <p>In reading your second paragraph, I think you mean to say that you do NOT think the Spaniards should kill patients' pets, and I agree. I also agree that individuals will not always rationally assess what is the best course of action when all parties' interests are considered. But I also don't believe that individuals have a moral obligation to comply with misguided and unnecessary policies just because they have a claimed "public health" rationale. If turning in my cat - or myself - to be killed could prevent a major epidemic, despite some qualms relating to overpopulation, I'd do it without hesitation. But I'd want to see some evidence first.</p> <p>Practically, you cannot expect that people will refrain from doing what is best for themselves and their loved ones because they haven't been "deputized to make public health decisions." Imagine, for example, that the government was so overwhelmed by an outbreak that their only treatment was to throw patients into a locked ward where 80% or more would die, while with careful full-time home-care, you might hope to achieve a 25% death rate, like that Liberian nursing student famously managed. One of your close family members gets sick, and you know that the authorities say you must turn him in. Do you? I sure wouldn't.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460551&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qBcQa0xnyM7qWbeHRnUzsmi8QfisVeR6yeoSh7NRzXI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460551">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460552" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412769953"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well, of course, but I assume the parents are armed. That woudl work too.</p> <p>The point is not about worker herd obedience. The point is about dealing with parents who love their cat more than they value the safety of their children, or who have the belief that humans should die to save their pets and impose that belief on the kids. </p> <p>No, clearly they should not kill Excalibur, and I agree that this is sending out a message that could cause people to act in appropriately. </p> <p>This is not about "just a proclaimed public health rational". This is actual public health. </p> <p>I doin't think the government would ever use the locked ward approach. More likely it would be the refugee camp outside of town and then you drop the oxygen sucking bomb on top of it. </p> <p>What is this 35% death rate by the Liberian nursing student thing?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460552&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UTWb-UH8QCDydarYxBr2lOd2D4wtaTFxilkKOLaTapE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460552">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460553" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412770086"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>They did it: <a href="http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/spain-euthanizes-pet-dog-of-ebola-infected-woman/ar-BB8buoo">http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/spain-euthanizes-pet-dog-of-ebola-i…</a></p> <p>I predict elections will be lost over this.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460553&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="O1evptDXfD1Trs9ypWF4-G8NHazx7dQuuGwE8Gc6SCQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460553">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460554" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412772462"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Almost half the American public is armed, though the rate is lower among poor urban people; that does not justify killing them on contact in a crisis situation. I would assume that people who love the pet enough to refuse to abandon it to a slow miserable death would also love the kid enough to put it on a bus out of town if local conditions were truly, imminently dangerous or no food was available. Most people with kids do care about them, and the quantity of love is not fixed such that if you love your pets more, you must have less love for your kids.</p> <p>Oxygen sucking bomb: yikes, horror movie stuff. Also justifying all future efforts by sick people to stay out of camps at any cost, if not actually to go down to the nearest government office building and lick the doorknobs.</p> <p>A young Liberian nursing student whose name I forget was featured on CNN. Four of her family members - parents, sister and teenage cousin - got sick, and since there was no room at local medical facilities she nursed them round-the-clock singlehandedly for almost two weeks. She got latex gloves and IV fluids through her medical contacts, and improvised personal protective equipment from trash bags, rubber boots and a raincoat. Several times a day, she went through an elaborate dressing routine, caring for the sick, then an elaborate undressing routine. By the time hospital beds became available, three of them were over the worst of it - the fourth died shortly thereafter - and she never got sick. Her father is now looking for money so she can finish nursing school. I should think so - this young lady will be a fantastic nurse. You can probably find the article by Googling. It was a great bring-tears-to-the-eyes story.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460554&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HhsIkoEld_NjONW4aMfFb_14WeIo5yBufeEIvLmaO3A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460554">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460555" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412775647"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>People who get over-emotional about the need to put down an animal have lost contact with reality.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460555&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hwcmx5cPZesdfeDGVmkRDQ7mLrLQDaxZA6V6zEPteig"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Craig Thomas (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460555">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460556" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412778610"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On the Liberian woman, good for her, but that is not data, and that experience cant' be used to suggest that a particular approach gets a better survival rate.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460556&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_yNDNT7lIdIdvzMboZvmyskig6TdMGUJzlZPbbuDhVc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460556">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460557" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412779884"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The MSN article indicates that "Excaliburgate" must be taken quite seriously: It's garnered more tweets than JUSTIN BIEBER...</p> <p>I'm thinking we should lead the charge against mighty Ebola with "The Beeb" himself: Exposure to the life-sucking effects of American Pop Culture should cause the virus to wither, shrivel in disgust, and lose its taste for humanity.</p> <p>Heck, let it watch prime-time TV, too... It'll be more afraid of contact with us that we are of having contact with it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460557&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i4h1NzY3kLxP9o8zcQVUeUgB2LcWRbd8cY-sGJY_qhM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460557">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460558" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412784158"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Do the same experiment they did for AIDs.<br /> Use ebola, infect some mammal. Fill the cage area with voracious mosquitoes and then put someone who claims mammals can't transmit ebola into the cage let him get bitten by the bugs and his face and mouth licked by the mammal, and then see what happens. I'm sure you will get lots of volunteers who are sure its OK.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460558&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xaV5V2m0O_QUAVtw6b-PF-K5rtXX_4vC5tVBuJXgP4A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">L.Long (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460558">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460559" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412784307"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>pets are family, would you kill your brother</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460559&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ke2Rlxwe4IJZHWPk567tfC0CNkmcgLIwnPW_ZNuVLac"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">de de (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460559">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460560" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412784382"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>pets are family, would you put your family to sleep?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460560&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BdvZPg4VlPVjgpP7BR0vYfHbvX7Pzkb9SakDhG-_92g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">de de (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460560">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460561" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412833453"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Craig it is clear you have never gotten close to a dog, it could be you also don't form relationships with humans, I do not know. In any case many pet owners treat their pets as parts of the family and form strong attachments to them. The reason we don't want to kill them unless it it is really necessary is not that that the dog will suffer, if done properly it wont, it is so the owner, who is probably already highly stressed, will not suffer extra unnecessary pain.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460561&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w2Dhp8IYMuhMujEddNaajgsjxJaDDylvm3Ke20eoAX4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sailor (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460561">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460562" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412833773"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The problem with trying to save a dog (likely) infected with ebola is that ebola is a select agent that can only be handled in BSL-4 level facilities. </p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_level#Biosafety_level_4">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_level#Biosafety_level_4</a></p> <p>There are no BSL-4 facilities in Spain. </p> <p>You can't just take the dog to a kennel, unless the kennel is in a BSL-4 facility. Any other dogs the exposed one it exposed to need to be treated the same way, until it is either determined that the dog is not capable of spreading ebola, or until it is determined that it is capable of spreading ebola. This is likely a time frame of months. </p> <p>An infected dog might be more dangerous than an infected human because dogs don't seem to be debilitated by the disease. A debilitated human isn't running around spreading virus the way an infected non-debilitated dog might. </p> <p>The time to make decisions like this is before they happen, and allocate resources in a timely manner to deal with them appropriately if they do happen. In Texas, many people do not have access to health care because they lack insurance. </p> <p>During Katrina, there was the issue of pets not being allowed in shelters. What about people who are allergic to cats (as I am), or to dogs or parrots? Shelters could be made with sufficient air filtration equipment such that people allergic to pets might not have that hard a time, but they are not. </p> <p>The decision to not allow pets in evacuation vehicles and emergency shelters was made when the size and configuration of those places was decided and funding for them allocated.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460562&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sNFdFoNY25p0njUriL8sZrv9nV6r2ekVWtOszs-nrNo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">daedalus2u (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460562">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460563" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412840585"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Craig, aside from the fact that there is no evidence of "need" in this case, you sound like someone who is unaware that he is himself an animal. I would not consider it acceptable to kill an African gray parrot or an orca (except an enslaved one who might welcome it) to protect humans from putative risk. They have similar lifespans and similar capacities for consciousness and complex social relationships, so in my book, they count as people. (Those who reject this out of hand should consider the similarity of their rhetoric to that of those who deny the personhood of other past human species, or of other current human races.) I see other intelligent animals as falling somewhere in a gray zone of "semi-personhood". A dog has a shorter lifespan and (apparently) less mental and social life than we do, so when a dog dies prematurely, much less is lost than when a human dies prematurely. But that does not mean that nothing of meaning or value is lost. Killing a nonhuman animal is not like breaking a piece of furniture.</p> <p>L.Long, then I'm sure you agree that Ebola is airborne because it can be spread by air when you artificially infect pigs and cage them with monkeys. Whether something "can" be forced to happen under artificial conditions is no evidence of whether it happens in real life. As for the mosquito question: some blood-borne viruses can "live" in mosquitoes; many can't. Since West Africa is famous for its mosquito and malaria concentrations, I presume that mosquitoes do not spread Ebola in real-world conditions. If they did, there would be a hundred thousand randomly distributed cases by now and "contact tracing" would be meaningless.</p> <p>daedalus2u, I am unsure why you think that this dog was "likely" exposed, much less infected; that asymptomatic dogs would be capable of spreading the virus indefinitely; or that it would take "months" to find this out. The nurse's incarcerated husband asked plaintively, "Are they going to put me to sleep too?" Good question, but there is a way of ensuring that they don't. The American patients were not freed from isolation until they had no live virus in their blood. It would be equally possible to test a dog's blood for live virus.</p> <p>Though there's no need to wait "months" for that test to be informative, the dog could have been left alone in the house for weeks before being tested. The husband left out a large amount of food and water so that the dog would survive if not cared for. If the dog got sick within three weeks, he could have been presumed infected and put down. If he didn't, he would likely have been fine, but could have been tested as a precaution. (By that point the nurse might well have recovered enough to be freed and could have done the blood draw on her own dog, if nobody else wanted to do so even with PPE.)</p> <p>Yes, doing lab work for pets has costs. Refusing to do it and insisting on killing pets who are almost certainly no threat to anyone has costs as well. One of those is encouraging sick people to hide their illnesses from the government.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460563&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qRMggCSRIUeub3j-Tyas80e-0iYEV1dPl_6-rkcNBjo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460563">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460564" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412848035"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"... 40 (25.2%) of 159 samples from villages in the Ebola virus–epidemic area had detectable Ebola virus–IgG, compared to only 2 (2%) of 102 samples from France." </p> <p>2% of French dogs have signs of Ebola. That needs explaining, but I haven't seen any discussion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460564&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SvoYI_3p5zpgXPEtlubxp6UNOpQVEDCjbDi4XoyNV6Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve S (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460564">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460565" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412851821"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It is not an exact test. There are a few ways to get a positive, including common immune responses to multiple effects and no-specificity of the assay. The French dogs are a control. So, in the absence of Ebola we would expect to see a small incidence of positive tests (turns out around 2%).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460565&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N5AYY7cgH8THyRNb6lGmtqyTqmyRvZElpBjN-i0gXpg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460565">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460566" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412853139"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As far as I can tell from various sources no one knows yet about pet spreading ebola.<br /> As far as pets are concerned IF it is shown that they can catch and spread ebola, putting it down is no problem.<br /> And IF I should catch ebola?? My family would not need to worry too much as I would never go near them again or until it is cured. In fact I've already decided that if I got an incurable terrible disease I would be dead before the problem became to great.<br /> So YES pets are no problem, &amp; if they are for you than it sucks to be near you because as your kid I'd like to think I'm more important then some dog or cat.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460566&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a1cmvCwrZ2dWSs55vKMV9mAZnLkNkI5gAI-7P4o9be4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">L.Long (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460566">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460567" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412853447"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"IF it is shown that they can catch and spread ebola, putting it down is no problem."</p> <p>Um, I think many pet owners are disagreeing with that... That seems to be the issue at hand. They see it equivalent to "IF it is shown that their kids can catch and spread ebola, euthanizing them is no problem."</p> <p>If pets can transmit Ebola, this is a serious problem. From my #10, " Social &amp; cultural forces that come into play (and this might be one of them) that give Ebola an “assist” in spreading only brings that tipping point closer…"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460567&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cl4mGLD1LpT9x6VUrIPsBc36TrErJA30tWE9-cSr9Lw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460567">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460568" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412855942"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Re: "Ebola is airborne because it can be spread by air when you artificially infect pigs and cage them with monkeys."</p> <p>This is problematic, unless video of the two was recorded the entire time and scanned carefully. Primates love to throw things, including bodily products. (Wonder why the chimp cages at the zoo have plexiglass between you &amp; them? They have no qualms about flinging excrement...)</p> <p>I have to wonder if "the monkey" had the ability to, and did, fling infectious material at "the pig", which caused that infection. Does anyone have more information there?</p> <p>Quibble: Viruses are never "live"; they're either virulent or inactivated. They're just collections of organic molecules that happen to have a characteristic of being able to make cellular reproductive mechanisms go awry (when undamaged and virulent) that results in those (live) cells making copies of the virus particles. They can't be "killed", only damaged to the point where this characteristic no longer applies (inactivated), or, in some cases, hobbled significantly (attenuated).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460568&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GkW00bmPj8-eHo4jdJT2D1iCAbNnoxLFF2LwNuz4ikA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460568">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460569" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412858026"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>L.Long - You're not my kid, but since Ebola, when it is not fatal, naturally gets better - like any number of other sometimes fatal diarrheal diseases - I still hope that you won't kill yourself if you get it. You wouldn't shoot yourself if you got Lassa fever or cholera, I presume. This is not the Zombie Plague.</p> <p>Brainstorm - There is some right-wing loon elected official getting his 15 minutes right now by saying that any human who tests positive for Ebola should be immediately slaughtered. This seems a little extreme given that humans who recover are not perpetual spreaders of virus, like Typhoid Mary, but are cured. There are plenty of other life-threatening communicable diseases with a two- or three-week course for which he did not propose extermination. But those diseases are not associated 99.9% with black people. If a dog were a healthy permanent reservoir of potential contagion - not known ever to have happened - by all means, kill him. If he were sick with it, rather than let him barf virus all over the place, fine, kill him. Kill him just in case in some alternate universe he "might" somehow be a risk? Well, Mr. Wingnut has already shown where that sentiment leads.</p> <p>You can Google the pig-monkey infection study. I said that the PIGS were artificially infected with Ebola. The healthy monkeys caged in the same room then got sick. The pigs didn't fling poop at the monkeys. However, pigs tend to express viruses in the lungs more than primates and to spray a lot of droplets when they breathe, so they are really good sources of aerosol transmission. Hence the various "swine flus".</p> <p>As for "live" in quotes, it was being used as a verb, and that's why I put it in quotes. For a lay audience, saying that a virus "lives" after ingestion by a mosquito is easy to understand, if technically incorrect. Hence the quotes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460569&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YLWSbkDNq4cANqfTgE3-vloYH3p7HMhsP0C81So0Qss"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460569">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460570" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412858580"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I caught my mistake right after pressing "Submit"... Oy.</p> <p>We (as a society/societies) will need to figure out how to effectively quarantine those who are infected so as to block transmission of this virus. The long incubation periods, ease of transmission via touch, high death rates, etc. all combine to make this a very nasty situation. Incinerating everyone who is suspected (or confirmed) to have it isn't going to work, as you point out. But what we're allowing now isn't a good strategy either...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460570&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="D8NkaeeeY8z1ntPX5JDeVUHPl_MKMMtFKX91B5H47OM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460570">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460571" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412859130"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>When we say "disease X is airborne" we are implying "disease X is airborne within a given species". The pig-monkey thing does not tell us that ebola is ariborne, but initially many weeks and now many months of field experience does tell us it is not. </p> <p>Regarding the dog, one does not have to wait to see if a dog has ebola. It can be tested.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460571&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SbT-GM9u-2-SUZ8G_t5VP3Wn69UB1yQpyFVCD6HxOvA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460571">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460572" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412860872"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jane and Greg no one knows what tests to do so as to determine if a dog is infectious or not. </p> <p>If the dog gets sick, it might be infectious, if the dog doesn't get sick it might still be infectious. There isn't a blood test to determine if someone or some animal is not infectious. </p> <p>I don't doubt that things can be tested, and those tests will produce “numbers”, but what do those “numbers” mean? No one knows without data on exposures and disease course in dogs. </p> <p>The only reason that such things are approximately known for humans, is because lots of humans have been exposed, have gotten the disease, and then have recovered and have not been infectious to other humans. </p> <p>You have no way of knowing if this dog is "almost certainly no threat to anyone". How many lives of which group of people are you willing to bet on your degree of certainty? How much are you willing to pay for the health care of people who might be exposed by this dog? </p> <p>They didn't shoot the husband of the exposed woman. The woman got exposed taking care of another human. She is being taken care of by other humans who are risking their lives taking care of her. </p> <p>I don't doubt that dog lovers could be found who would put up enough money to do so. The problem is why are people unwilling to put up that kind of money to take care of human beings? </p> <p>If the US had spent 0.1% of what Bush spent on Iraq on ebola treatment and research, there would be a vaccine for ebola and the outbreak in Africa would have been stopped.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460572&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l1f8_2nE-k5ODDvmC2Ymf3MatrHt1hpQ2OcmS2BRo0s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">daedalus2u (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460572">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460573" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412860933"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ebola clearly isn't airborne, but it's not clear to what extent it might be aerosol-transmissible over short distances between humans. The head of the CDC says this is "theoretically possible", and WHO is labeling prolonged close proximity (within 3') in an enclosed space as a risk for infection.</p> <p>CDC is today starting to sound panicky even in public pronouncements. I have heard third-hand scuttlebutt, which I cannot verify, that some at CDC now believe that WHO has dropped the ball, and the U.S. Army is dropping it, so badly that a pandemic that will kill hundreds of millions or more is now all but inevitable.</p> <p>While we are on the subject of counterproductive right-wing responses, the infamous Sen. James Inhofe raises his ugly head. The military's planned activities must be paid for by the transfer of funds formerly allocated to some other activity. I read a day or so ago that Inhofe was refusing to sign off on the bill that would do this until he received an explanation of how the administration could 100% guarantee that not one of Our Troops could possibly be exposed to Ebola during the effort. Though that seems an impossible bar to set, the administration said they would deliver that information within the week. (No bets on whether he can comprehend it, or will pretend not to believe any of it.) That's another week in which the number of sick people can climb even higher above the already inadequate planned numbers of beds to be set up and workers trained. If there is a pandemic and Inhofe survives it, there just might be a people's tribunal and a brick wall in his future.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460573&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kK5edKx2xi7h-RK7fszZ5q1wL26b0jmB_aK2oF0sXDU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460573">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460574" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412862352"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>daedalus2u - I've got no quibble with the point that bombing poor people halfway around the world does less for our security than setting up public health infrastructure! </p> <p>However, though there may be no way of proving whether a human or animal IS infectious, it is possible to show whether he might be. Antibodies are present long-term in people who have fought off a disease, but no live virus continues to be produced in their bodies. We are told that patients treated in the U.S. were tested and confirmed to no longer have live virus in their blood before they were released. The virus would be the same in an infected dog's blood as it would be in a human's, so the same test could be used. An animal might in theory be a healthy long-term host for a virus but not able to spread it - and I don't mind euthanizing him out of an abundance of caution - but if you're not a host, you simply can't spread it.</p> <p>The dog was confined to a house where nobody is now living. Nobody was coming in contact with him. How many humans would he have been endangering even if he had had an asymptomatic infection? None, as far as I can see. Supposing that his owners survived and returned home, and he tested negative at that time, there is no reason to expect that he would suddenly develop viremia months later. That is just not consistent with what is known about the natural history of this virus. Some people during the early days of the AIDS epidemic wanted to quarantine or kill gay people lest they get HIV from toilet seats, etc. "We just don't know. We can't bet our lives on it." But there was no science whatsoever behind this argument, only fear and the obsession with purity and contamination that plays a strong role in certain strains of political thought.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460574&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0OE0TeV0U4mToUCQCtqFfQDjMOgOnj1qXgZK4WAXiVQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460574">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460575" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412866427"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The house the dog was confined to was not a BSL-4 facility. </p> <p>Bats are the usual host species for ebola. There are lots of bats in Spain. </p> <p>What is needed in Africa to deal with ebola is mostly what is also needed to fight wars; that is logistics. </p> <p>Getting the right stuff where it is needed at the right time and in a large enough quantity. That is what the US military could do, and even if they do nothing else that would be a gigantic contribution.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460575&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="181oAPeGGUQzexfLdFOlV7239LgBH67RCV7ne3Tt5go"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">daedalus2u (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460575">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460576" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412867706"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm with daedalus. While you could kennel the dog until he's believed to be free of the disease, a) we don't know for sure if dogs have the same incubation period and b) where would you kennel the dog? You can't keep it at home, for the same reason the humans aren't being kept at home, and there's no kennel or vet office that would be willing to take a dog who might have Ebola. It seems cruel, but honestly I can't imagine a good alternative to what Spain decided to do in this case.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460576&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BXwDW6aKeWzQILO42851Z5NQjHzEOQSjuM9KWovu6S4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Calli Arcale (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460576">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1460577" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412873781"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There are probably 200,000 dogs that have been in proximity of Ebola patients. This is the first time anyone, including WHO and CDC though it necessary to put one down.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460577&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CADoPHnW01Qs7KM8V7jjFKrdtTbBz7dkHtLTrLZQ96Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460577">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460578" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412875938"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yes Greg, but this was the first instance of a dog not in the normal range of ebola being possibly exposed to ebola. There are other potential vectors of ebola in Spain. Bats are known vectors, and pigs are potential vectors. Maybe it is unlikely that ebola would transfer to bats and become endemic in Europe. How unlikely does that have to be before you would consider it unnecessary to euthanize a dog that was a potential vector? </p> <p>Europe has embraced the Precautionary principle in regards to GMOs (naively and stupidly IMO). Not euthanizing this dog is (IMO) a greater risk than GMO maize.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460578&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_8ebf038tXOpWxu95MjDHBSXEA3LYospt4dwvFiVLZQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">daedalus2u (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460578">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460579" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412877695"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jane says,<br /> October 9, 2014<br /> Craig, aside from the fact that there is no evidence of “need” in this case, "</p> <p>You demonstrate you have failed to understand the facts explained above.<br /> It is known that many different mammals including dogs can carry Ebola.<br /> Ebola is very very deadly.<br /> This dog has been exposed to Ebola and may be carrying it.<br /> The "need" is firmly established, but you are in denial due to an emotional response.</p> <p>"you sound like someone who is unaware that he is himself an animal. "</p> <p>You seem to be having trouble differentiating between humans and non-humans. Emotion masking reason.</p> <p>"I would not consider it acceptable to kill an African gray parrot or an orca ...to protect humans from putative risk.</p> <p>You're demonstrating very poor risk management decision-making abilit and a failure of ethics, apparently caused by being over-emotional.<br /> Of course it is perfectly reasonable to kill the last of the Dodos, if that would save somebody's life.</p> <p>This is exactly how evil enters the world - people with extremely warped views end up in a position to make bad decisions that affect others.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460579&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oL1DGoXMPPb-fvE9OqANRoDl0sU9nzJURCgmuhlvcMg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Craig Thomas (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460579">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460580" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412878381"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Is it just me, or is all this speculation about Ebola starting to eerily resemble the plot of "John Carpenter's The Thing"??</p> <p>(That film --one of the few that has ever given me "the willies"-- even started out with a DOG being a suspected carrier...)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460580&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KXfF45Dx7GeWkTx7inbVEdM7Wkuev0OfDlMFjiJDFuU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 09 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460580">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460581" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1412930074"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>daedalus2u and Calli - The nurse is in the hospital because she needs medical care. Her husband could just as well have been quarantined at home - alone, where he could have infected nobody except in some people's imaginations his dog - until and unless he developed possible symptoms. He is confined in a hospital only because the Spanish authorities are so frightened of the coming plague that they view potential victims as threats first and human beings second. The house where the American case's relatives are confined is not a BL-4 facility, and even if one of those relatives should indeed be infected, CDC does not seem to think that the virus will magically float out of the house and infect people walking down the street.</p> <p>Craig, you demonstrate that you fail to understand what a "fact" is; your opinions are not facts, nor are your fears. Indeed, there are differences between humans and non-humans, but it is reason that tells me that an animal whose cognitive abilities may be equal to my own - orcas, say, are inferior to humans when it comes to tool use and genocide, but superior in other cognitive domains - has similar inherent value. There are some who would happily kill a dozen orcas, or even exterminate the species, if it would save "one precious human life." Such an extreme posture is clearly motivated by "emotion", and it is frequently the emotion of believing that they are created in their deity's image and orcas are not. If that is not the case in your particular instance, of course, I apologize for any suggestion to that effect.</p> <p>The attitude that it is okay for humans to do anything whatsoever to animals if it is alleged to perhaps possibly profit any human, and "evil, warped and a failure of ethics" to object, has already caused more than a little harm to humans - among the least of these, at least so far, is the fact that forest clearance causes viruses like Ebola to spread to humans more often - and it promises to do more. The living ecosystems that it would be "warped" to try to protect are in fact our source of sustenance, and once we have destroyed them, we will find that we can't eat oil shale.</p> <p>Also, I point out that there are those who would kill a dozen, or a thousand, Africans if it might save one white Uh-merican life. You can go to any of hundreds of websites and find some turkey bellowing demands that victims should be killed, if indeed their whole communities not exterminated. Once you make My Ingroup First your sole guiding value, especially if you have an ignorant and short-term view of what your ingroup's interests might be, there is little you won't do.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460581&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZrPRAUJDJMALfPU6xDfE8AASw3oVysRzkcx7Xe1UQ1g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 10 Oct 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460581">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460582" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1428050376"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I do believe that putting the dog down was drastic, considering we have no proof that they can transmit the virus. do you think that if evidence suggesting that they can transmit the virus wa found that it would lead to the mass killing of dogs in parts of Africa strongly effected by Ebola?<br /> u15008526</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460582&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2GNzdx5kdGVCp0OcM_43MhUUuFufQEU-7oe7EvFV-Uc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kimelle Krishnalall (not verified)</span> on 03 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460582">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460583" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429097356"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>is it right to assume that an animal has a disease without conducting the correct experiments? i agree that it was wrong of putting an innocent dog down because of an assumption. for something of that degree to be done enough evidence should be provided!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460583&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3iX84lWzPLF-iwO_ys4o8tgNNyvqg_AJaSUPZTkY01Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tiara padayachee (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460583">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460584" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429097677"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Without substantial proof assumptions on the dog being infected should not have been made .I think there should have been a proceedure to follow to confirm the assumption (15090478)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460584&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kEnv_VZRNO1GdIrNq7IRC32yQzAUaxPT_XolZSFAca0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">natalia moodley (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460584">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460585" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429097706"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Interesting theories on what caused the conflict between the dinosaurs .The theory on dinosaurs fighting over their mates is quite fascinating but there is the possibility of the bite marks being caused because of competition for food and their territories. According to Charles Darwin and his theory of Natural Selection , competition between the species is normal. I noticed that you did mention inter-specific and intra-specific competition and I agree.</p> <p>(15112315)- shayuri</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460585&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wxFqmM_uffQMqnKlPI8I-HMFw3wexjAHplU0YGbtSKA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shayuri R Deepak (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460585">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460586" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429099159"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I agree with that the decision made was very harsh and it was drastic. There is no proof or evidence stating that the dog was infected so there is a possibility that an innocent dog was killed. There is also no proof of dogs transmitting the Ebola Virus . I agree with you Kim and it is very concerning if you consider the mass murder of dogs in Africa </p> <p>(15112315)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460586&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gjZ1kt9USCgrjoq7WL3UDsCdDOerN0qdY3YFy2S13O0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shayuri R Deepak (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460586">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460587" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429099873"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I find this to be very harsh and demeaning. I did not hear or see any other case of this sort. I do not think that dogs could transmit Ebola and if they can, where is the evidence?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460587&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HOTl9MY0cWRR0XawDXflRtn0MKcaI3Q0drWKzf7ppSw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Trishika Parhalad (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460587">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460588" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429099913"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I find this to be very harsh and demeaning. I did not hear or see any other case of this sort. I do not think that dogs could transmit Ebola and if they can, where is the evidence?<br /> (15101313)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460588&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_jHvIyeUl7W83EA1v43MAXtCMoIdYkUKWMkOgwoQZJQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Trishika Parhalad (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460588">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1460589" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429100849"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>i agree completely , there was no evidence and such a drastic move was not necessary</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1460589&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YgBp4ygsd3rvB4C8w5aQ1ULkFwmyUuYSHL-x6OkZQiY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shayuri R Deepak (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1460589">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2014/10/08/can-dogs-transmit-ebola%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 08 Oct 2014 06:53:50 +0000 gregladen 33364 at https://www.scienceblogs.com A Field Guide to ALL of the Carnivores! (Almost) https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/27/a-field-guide-to-all-of-the-ca <span>A Field Guide to ALL of the Carnivores! (Almost)</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Why would you want a field guide to all of the carninvores? They live everywhere, so there is no reason to carry around a field identification guide with ALL of them unless you were going everywhere in the whole world on one trip! </p> <p>Yet, there is such a field guide, <a href="http://www.powells.com/partner/41349/biblio/9780691152288?p_ti" title="More info about this book at powells.com" rel="powells-9780691152288">Carnivores of the World (Princeton Field Guides)</a>, and the truth is, this is ONE OF THE COOLEST BOOKS I'VE EVER SEEN! All the carnivores (almost) in one book. Interestingly, it turns out to be possible. There are fewer than three hundred species of terrestrial carnivore in the whole world, and that is fittable in a single book. </p> <p>That itself is an interesting fact, in proper context. Indeed, when I went through this book, spending a bit of time on each and every page, a number of interesting thoughts about carnivores came to mind.... </p> <p>Regarding taxonomy, diversity, and disparity (the former = number of species, the latter = how different they are), carnivores are fairly unique, but in a way that applies as well to primates. Looking only at the regular terrestrial carnivores first, they are all very similar in certain respects yet there is a fair amount of variation among them, including a huge range of body size from the smallest carnivore that could easily hang out in an open soda can to the largest being the northern Bears (either polar or brown, depending on how you measure a species "size"). There are almost 30 orders of Mammalia, and Carnivora is about the fifth most speciose. Yet, Carnivora has fewer than 300 species. Compared to some other animal Classes (Mammalia is a Class). the mammals, for all the interest we have in them, are fairly low density in respect to species (there are something like <a href="http://10000birds.com/">10,000 Birds!</a>), high in disparity (the "hooved animals" includes whales and bats fly like birds!) and are rather cryptic with respect to how visible they are on the landscape (compared, again, to birds, <a href="http://10000birds.com/how-much-bird-is-there.htm">which are always rather in your face</a>). </p> <p>Carnivores, relative to some of the more common mammal Classes, are both ubiquitous and thinly distributed. As you track mammals across the landscape, you might find that certain mammals are highly concentrated here and there, almost absent in other places. The total biomass of bovids in northern climes varies dramatically as you go from herds of bison to forests with thinly distributed deer to tundra or mountain slopes where the highly specialized forms occur in small groups with big gaps between. But everywhere you go, you will be within the territory of a carnivore. In fact, as a rule, you'll be within the territory of between two and four carnivores, as they tend to divide themselves up by size class, with the classes sometimes competing with each other. In one place there may be otters or minks (small) and coyotes (medium) and either a cougar or a wolf pack (large), or there may be lots of coyotes (large) and otherwise mainly stoats and the like (small). In much of Africa, there will be one large cat (lion) one small cat (golden, wild-house, or sand?) one hyena and two or more mongoose-getet-civet-like creatures that are different from each other in size covering the exact spot you are standing. You're standing there looking at some bird, and off in the bush there are five carnivores looking at you. In the ancient middle east, there would be lion, leopard, a smaller cat, and an even smaller cat. And so on.</p> <p>Don't think about that too much ... it is just a rule of thumb. The point is, most space is occupied by carnivores, yet at the same time they are way spread out because of their territorial habits which arose for a number of reasons including the fact that they eat other animals and thus are limited. And, this means that as they disperse during their own carnivoresque personal development cycle, they tend to disperse over very long distances, maybe not during all generations but certainly some. Therefore, some carnivore species have huge ranges, or if they have diversified a bit, some carnivore groups of species have huge ranges. And, for many types of carnivores, there are both tropical and template's and in between forms. This is not typical of the other orders of mammals. </p> <p>This is why we get interesting patterns such as the fact that the New World cougar and the Cheetah are close relatives, having differentiated in North America. The Cougar did not spread from North America probably (this is just an educated guess) because medium+ size cats were already everywhere, but the Cheetah was rather a novelty ... a doggish cat that could run as fast as the fastest antelope or pronghorn ... so it did spread. Subsequent events left the Cheetah only in Africa but it was once more widely dispersed (as a type of cat, not necessarily the same species).</p> <p>The lion was probably the one mammal among all mammals, other than humans, that has the largest range of all mammals ever, having been spread across North America, Europe, Asia and Africa not too long ago. And so on and so forth.</p> <p>The result of these patterns of adaptation, dispersal, and ecology is what you see in <a href="http://www.powells.com/partner/41349/biblio/9780691152288?p_ti" title="More info about this book at powells.com" rel="powells-9780691152288">Carnivores of the World (Princeton Field Guides)</a>. When you look at the carnivores organized more or less by taxonomy and then pay attention to the geography, your mind will be blown and you will demand an explanation! How the hell did we get the same basic animal living in the woods of North America (wolverine) and the nearby prairies (badgers) as we have across Europe and Asia and Africa (the honey badger) with about dozen or so other versions all over the place? And you will see other patterns as well; As you thumb through the pages, you will repeatedly see size grading among the carnivores, but most of the size grading is localized. It isn't like Asia has large otter-mink-stoat critters and Africa small ones .. everywhere gets a range from small to large. Also, as you thumb through the pages, every here and there you'll see "Crab Eating X" where "X" is some kind of animal (dog, badger, cat, whatever). Either carnivores like them their crabs or carnivore namers are regularly surprised enough to see crab eating that they tend to name anything they see eating a crab after that behavior, even if some of them actually rarely do. (Had I named coyotes after my first extended wild encounters with them, they would be the "crab eating dog"!) </p> <p>Hunter's book does not cover the fish. Yes, folks, just as the "hooved animals" gave rise to several fish (whales) and other groups have given rise to fish (hippos, etc.) the carnivores has a fish branch as well (walrus, seals, sea lions). I think it would be cool if <a href="http://www.powells.com/partner/41349/biblio/9780691152288?p_ti" title="More info about this book at powells.com" rel="powells-9780691152288">Carnivores of the World (Princeton Field Guides)</a> included these critters as well. Including them would make important points about evolution. I respect the fact that this book is written by an expert on land carnivores, so having seals and such in there with the terrestrial forms may be inappropriate. But in a future edition of the book, I would love to see five pages dedicated to the Fish nee Carnivores, not all species but just a nod to the families of seals, walrus, and sea lions. </p> <p>The other thing that is missing from this book that I would very much like to see and that I must insist (as if I could) be included in the next edition is range maps. I have ideas as to how to make them fit. It is important. (But see below)</p> <p>Luke Hunter is an Australian who has done research in South Africa and elsewhere. He heads the Panthera Corporation and formerly headed Great Cats and the Wildlife CosnervationSociety. </p> <p>The Panthera Foundation web site has lots of information about carnivores, and in particular, you can download the range maps that are missing from the book, <a href="http://www.panthera.org/carnivoreguide-maps">here</a>!</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Sun, 11/27/2011 - 06:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/books" hreflang="en">Books</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/carnivora" hreflang="en">Carnivora</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/cat" hreflang="en">Cat</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ursus" hreflang="en">Ursus</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/book-review" hreflang="en">book review</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/carnivores" hreflang="en">Carnivores</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/cat-conservation" hreflang="en">cat conservation</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/cats" hreflang="en">Cats</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/field-guide" hreflang="en">field guide</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/books" hreflang="en">Books</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/life-sciences" hreflang="en">Life Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442124" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322396738"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I guess the Amazon is one of the places where the most carnivore eyes are watching us. In a good forest there are 5 cats, 2 dogs, and about 6 mustelids (two aquatic).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442124&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TV3HYcZHn23PGq8SGSyT_GJjsUQkTux76oDO8dM98eo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.loujost.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lou Jost (not verified)</a> on 27 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442124">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442125" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322397610"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I thought it was very interesting that there are fewer that three hundred species of terrestrial carnivores and that (almost) all are able to fit in one book. I also thought that the information about geography and location of all the carnivores is interesting to think about it. I was interested as to why some of these species of carnivores have such diverse locations. I found some information about the different biomes: <a href="http://www.eoearth.org/article/Terrestrial_biome">http://www.eoearth.org/article/Terrestrial_biome</a> I would still like to learn more about why we have the some of the same animals living in so many different biomes and places.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442125&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jTI-knP08DCyCGjQJ22TE4uYJW5H9R9_27lGU6lbl_4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">E Gluck (not verified)</span> on 27 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442125">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442126" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322419307"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I thought this was really interesting - I didn't realize there were so few mammalian carnivores, nor did I know Cheetahs originated in North America. However, I did get stuck for a moment on the part about "Crab Eating X", which I took to mean that there were numerous pictures of crabs eating dogs, badgers and cats in this book. Then I remembered the joke about seeing a man eating shrimp in the aquarium café and realized what you meant.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442126&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5mSBvSb_169n_yTJx_urrUDBgnz4FDTw4L-OcGfuMho"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Ruble (not verified)</span> on 27 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442126">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442127" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322435669"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>One place this would come in handy as a sort of field guide would be at a zoo. There's never enough information on the little signs they put up on the enclosures, and this would probably fill that need for the carnivores. Next we need a good guide to antelopes, I guess.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442127&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TfIfnAaL2g9_Qx1kCx93sjsA507tYg0uzM4toZwCQNg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Achrachno (not verified)</span> on 27 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442127">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442128" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322436036"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ah, good idea!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442128&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4Kx0zlnuJDCymGGtMXyJf8mGZiLT33X7lXNdrVjKdnU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Greg Laden (not verified)</a> on 27 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442128">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442129" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322513962"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lions are the most widespread of mammals after humans? I assume you mean they were dispersed over the continents naturally unlike the ubiquitous brown rat that travelled by ship to nearly every corner of the earth.</p> <p>Also a book I heartily recommend to anyone interested in carnivores is the Velvet Claw by conservationist and carnivore specialist David MacDonald. It shows the earliest ancestors of this group as well as th extant species and goes in incredible detail about their anatomy, ecology, evolution and behaviour.</p> <p>Darren Naish dedicated two articles to the TV series this book was based off and it makes me really to see it! </p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2007/11/velvet_claw_part_i.php">http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2007/11/velvet_claw_part_i.php</a><br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2007/11/velvet_claw_part_ii.php">http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2007/11/velvet_claw_part_ii.php</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442129&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fruE_F_Hiv2uolTxb_kYB8M6fNmN49q2b12-xjS31aQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joe (not verified)</span> on 28 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442129">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442130" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322514748"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What I mean is that the natural range of Panthera leo ran across much of non-forest Africa, through much of Europoe and parts of Asia, and across North America.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442130&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gYj8Em5MxOgcvYksqjFT3Kh40aRva2twuimVkc3Hrpk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Greg Laden (not verified)</a> on 28 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442130">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442131" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322521794"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Looking through the range maps I found one fairly major error -- the map for the Palawan stink badger is the same as that for the pygmy spotted skunk. I wondered about this creature I'd never heard of, with a distinctly odd and memorable name, that supposedly occurs in an area where I've spend considerable time. Turns out the stink badger is supposed to be mapped in the Philippines, not the western coast of Mexico. They accidentally used the same map twice.</p> <p>And speaking of crab-eating things, the crab-eating raccoon lives quite a bit farther north than the range map shows. I saw a number of them in coastal thickets in the cape region of the Nicoya Peninsula in Costa Rica. The map for this sp. does not suggest they get even to C.R., but there are lots of references to them being there, even just from a brief internet search.</p> <p>Another interesting thing pointed out by the maps, an apparent weakness in our documented knowledge, involves the jaguarundi. It's not mapped as even making it to Sonora on the W coast of Mexico. After further digging, I was surprised to learn that there are no specimen records north of Sinaloa, though there are a number of sight records north as far as southern Arizona. The AZ records are generally discounted, since no specimen has been obtained. But, they're probably there IMO. I was on a trip to southern AZ c. 20 years ago (Santa Cruz Co., near the Sonora border) and while most of us were out doing various things, the two guys (good biologists with lots of experience) who stayed in camp saw a bobcat-sized brown cat with a long tail that they were sure could only be a jaguarundi. No photos or other proof, but I believe them, and kinda wish I'd stayed in camp that day.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442131&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3LzdBtYMO1woxJomiTi_FJyCcPzLnWIw49HnemX5_C8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Achrachno (not verified)</span> on 28 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442131">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442132" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322539491"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Greg, I greatly appreciate the time and effort you devote to this blog. It rarely fails to inform and/or entertain me! Thank you. One idea I hope you might expand on:<br /> "carnivores are fairly unique, but in a way that applies as well to primates" How so?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442132&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fhkLYq0-ZgtjhVn_u2nQtU80ehDmRdYX6AvIzWZdA4U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 28 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442132">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1442133" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322550540"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Michael: I hope to expand on that discussion at some point. Briefly, both have similar ranges of body size (huge) and both have relatively low densities on the landcape where they occur compared to rodents, bats, lagomorphs, etc. They are different in that primates don't really exist or diversify in non-tropical areas much. </p> <p>Achrachno: I saw problems in the maps as well, some seemingly because of rather conservative estimates but certainly having the wrong continent is an issue.</p> <p>I shall inform the author/publisher. The nice thing about it being on the web is that it is fixable!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442133&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zh4XnPh1YvnXGgWO1bt09Kd5IzgjTyBGbWD7V3samKs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 29 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442133">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442134" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322566451"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Greg,</p> <p>Oh that is fair enough. Was pretty tired when I read this post so my comprehension was not the best! Thanks for the clarification.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442134&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Lt7vS5DMhoXFuJW7va7nbSIZszdEhFA4iJQr-87GbjE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joe (not verified)</span> on 29 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442134">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442135" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322596481"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This book sounds really interesting, I'll be sure to give it a look. With the thousands of species of animals on earth it just seems ridiculous that less than 300 are carnivores. However, given that there is so much competition for a meat-eater compared to an herbivore, it makes sense that there can only be a few species of carnivore thriving in a given area. After all, grazing animals like zebra are not about to run out of grass to feed on, but if the lions had much more competition there would be no zebra left to eat. This website has more information on what occurs when two animals compete to fulfill the same niche (one is inevitably displaced or becomes extinct), and on the dominant carnivores in each of the earth's biomes.<br /><a href="http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/animals.htm">http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/animals.htm</a><br /> Since i'm seeing some discussion about what we would like to see in another book, I think it would be very interesting to touch on what types of competition some of today's carnivores once faced (i.e. what other carnivores they competed with) and how they overcame the resulting competition for resources.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442135&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NQzzm-MTvyo69wbdJ8rekcwjvVCDPFUIQ5w1arbUkC8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Danny (not verified)</span> on 29 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442135">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442136" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322596680"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hi mrs. Newitt.</p> <p>I just posted another comment on scienceblogs.com hoping that that one would show up immediately and it is saying that it also needs to be approved. I am hoping that at least one of them will go up in a few hours. Here is the link to the page-</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/a_field_guide_to_all_of_the_ca.php">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/a_field_guide_to_all_of_the_c…</a></p> <p>Thanks,<br /> -Danny</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442136&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OjP0Xelzz2kBY-9bEJO3SURuY5alojk9e5iKug9X_7c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Danny (not verified)</span> on 29 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442136">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442137" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322597932"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That book sounds really interesting i'll be sure to give it a look. It just seems ridiculous that out of the thousands of species of animals on earth, less than 300 are carnivores. It does make sense, though, that there could only be a few carnivores in a given area, as there is a limited supply of other animals to feed on. After all, a zebra is not in much danger of running out of grass just because there are other herbivores that feed on it as well, but if a lion had to compete with many other carnivores, it would very quickly run out of zebra to eat. This website has more information about what happens when multiple organisms compete to fill the same niche (one is eventually displaced or becomes extinct), and has more interesting details about the dominant carnivores in each of the world's biomes. <a href="http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/animals.htm">http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/animals.htm</a><br /> Since we are talking about what we would like to see in another book, I think it would be interesting to see what competition today's carnivores once faced (i.e. other carnivores) and how they overcame their competitors in the struggle for resources.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442137&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GyFfKiKMz2AO1SrFEe38ICsrANn3pF5hwVDp4IEYsL0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Danny (not verified)</span> on 29 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442137">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1442138" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322599469"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry about the comment getting stuck,Danny. That sometimes happens if there is a link in a comment (but strangely, not always)</p> <p>Who's Miss Newitt?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442138&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RHPcbVRBWazgJzSEJvN3cXVBecTYgnT43R-5aqaHze0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 29 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442138">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442139" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322653874"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you Greg for the quick and coherent response to my inquiry. I understand your point now, yet as is often the case one answer often leads to other questions.</p> <p>"primates don't really exist or diversify in non-tropical areas much" Well, for lorises, lemurs, monkeys, apes and various other cousins that is certainly true. But of course I'm sure we can all think of one primate that is a very major exception to that rule of thumb!</p> <p>When I thought about humans as an exception, I dismissed it as not so interesting. After all the evolution of fully modern intelligence was such a game changer that of course modern humans spread everywhere that the terrestrial Carnivores had spread to. And yet... </p> <p>Starting about 2 million years ago Homo Erectus spread throughout Asia and Europe, and not only in tropical habitats. Although they likely had intellectual capabilities beyond earlier hominids, to say nothing of apes, their level of technology at that time would seem to indicate that they were a very, very far cry from fully modern humans. For example, it seems likely that mastery of fire took place only subsequent to this spread. Still, spread they did!</p> <p>So, how come? Could it be that their geographic spread had less to do with their intelligence per se, than with the fact that although they were Primates and not Carnivores they had adopted a primarily carnivorous lifestyle. I.e., is there something about meat eating that favors geographic diversity, if not density.</p> <p>I have been trying to think of other terrestrial mammalian species that are primarily carnivorous, outside of the Orders of Carnivores and Primates. I'm stumped. (Hey, I'm just an amateur not a biologist!) But if there are such species, and if they also exhibit lots of diversity across different habitats, that would be interesting. (At least to me. Who knows if there is anyone else reading this ridiculously long reply.)</p> <p>Anyhow Greg, I must thank you again. Your post and reply obviously provoked another person (me in this case but surely there are MANY others) to think about things that otherwise would have been ignored. That's a really cool use of technology! Now I need to see if I can afford Luke Hunter's book. :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442139&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BC3l6sacsNm3136cvRuxgae8nfm9grha6v7Bm2rj4wo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 30 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442139">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1442140" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322654321"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Good questions.</p> <p>Homo erectus had fire, cooked its food, and even though they lived in a much wider range of habitats than other earlier hominds, they still didn't go into the really cold places, apparently.</p> <p>Here's some relevant info: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2007/12/cooking_and_human_evolution.php">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2007/12/cooking_and_human_evolution.p…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442140&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8dqJ_hdoig9hL0y8IsWEMtTJjquBXrVjPTxfQngG3xI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 30 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442140">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442141" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322657875"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Michael,</p> <p>If you consider fish as prey for carnivores then cetaceans would be seen as a carnivorous clade as well. However if you are one who thinks carnivores and piscivores are distinct then orcas would be easily be the most carnivorous cetaceans. They can kill sea birds, seals and sea lions and other cetaceans including baleen whales!</p> <p>Some bat species as well are full time carnivores.<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_Bat">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_Bat</a><br /> The Greater Noctule bat is also known to feed on migrating songbirds by night.<br /><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1784064/?tool=pmcentrez">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1784064/?tool=pmcentrez</a> </p> <p>So outside of primates and carnivores, carnivory is surprisingly rare in mammals.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442141&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jGEd0B0DK4S8opOX6qs9hS3j_to3136z0FpCvm54gwQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">joe (not verified)</span> on 30 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442141">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442142" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322658731"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Good answers! </p> <p>Let's see if I can translate Greg's very polite response to something more blunt:<br /> Mike was wrong, Mike was wrong, and, Mike was wrong, apparently. lol! </p> <p>After reading your link and some other sources I think I see a little wiggle room (Homo Erectus perhaps, maybe, it's possible, didn't get fire until after the 2 million year ago mark) but I gotta face it: I was wrong.</p> <p>Still, my most important point was that you gave me something to think about, and that certainly remains true. :)</p> <p>btw - This is driving me crazy with curiosity so I'll ask again for any input from any Greg readers (even Mrs Newitt whoever you are) Does anyone know of a terrestrial mammal species, outside of the Orders of Carnivores and Primates, that is primarily a meat eater? With all the many mammals out there could it be that there aren't any examples of a meat eating species that evolved from previously herbivorous ancestors? If that's the case it says something about evolution. What it says exactly I don't know, but it kinda seems like it might be significant.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442142&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TLjV_cIxPPNJr664qWWSMV_4GOhJch9nePN9DxnDsNg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 30 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442142">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442143" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322659439"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Joe, I didn't see your comment 18 until after my comment 19. Thanks for the info.</p> <p>So it really does seem that outside of the seas, where just about everything eats anything it can catch, that meat eating among mammals is kinda rare. Hmmm. More food for thought! (Sorry for the bad pun, I couldn't help myself.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442143&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gSY4kg3nGXHjh4tlNpG7mu61BQZAY-nkvmrY90QGQqU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 30 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442143">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442144" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322659889"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Michael,</p> <p>Then if it is other terrestrial mammal species you are curious about then as I mentioned above the bats seem to be the other group where carnivory has sprung up. Only 1% of bat species are full time carnivores. Here are the links:<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_Bat">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_Bat</a><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_False_Vampire_Bat">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_False_Vampire_Bat</a><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_noctule">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_noctule</a></p> <p>Oh I just remembered that marsupials have some carnivores in their ranks particularly the tasmanian devil and the quoll. In ancient times there was also a marsupial lion.<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thylacoleo">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thylacoleo</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442144&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6Ld3itego4AJ3MuzFb83WDfL2mzPi5H0uRLoIoZakCc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joe (not verified)</span> on 30 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442144">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442145" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322667503"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Michael, members of insectivora eat 100% meat, and as pointed out, microchioptra. And whatever order tasmanian devils are in, possibly?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442145&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a26N3ff04xxMeg88cnaUKtwcpEy5nDwzr5MV7ShPKZQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Greg Laden (not verified)</a> on 30 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442145">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442146" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322689618"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks guys for all the info. You just gotta love the internet!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442146&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8s62L37ipfemRnrlKL9zz08g_UzTiUPlwtZVJxn-n7Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 30 Nov 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442146">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442147" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322823153"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Is there a major difference between the hardcover and paperback versions of this book? I added the paperback to my Amazon wishlist, next time I'm feeling spendy I'll probably pick it up. But if the hardcover includes substantially more colour illustrations or the range maps or something, it might be worth the tripled price.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442147&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Za0eeFSAMFUYzGwnX9srAHh05aQq1s-YJP16p58bOL0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">TheBrummell (not verified)</span> on 02 Dec 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442147">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442148" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322825091"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I shall look into that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442148&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3oDwGWgWuV_gNGyak9YRlkKqksEkyyIJoKRGxVO4RxQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Greg Laden (not verified)</a> on 02 Dec 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442148">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1442149" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1322825369"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OK, it seems that the hardcover is just a different cover, otherwise its the same.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1442149&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TihX5zmmEGpeHKvrJFtS9TI8pnRZ8VGa3xLqUMrVSd8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Greg Laden (not verified)</a> on 02 Dec 2011 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1442149">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2011/11/27/a-field-guide-to-all-of-the-ca%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Sun, 27 Nov 2011 11:00:01 +0000 gregladen 31248 at https://www.scienceblogs.com Cats vs Dogs https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/10/29/cats-vs-dogs <span>Cats vs Dogs</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DhaRkWfaq10?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DhaRkWfaq10?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object><p> Hat tip: Todd.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Fri, 10/29/2010 - 05:26</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/cat" hreflang="en">Cat</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1426008" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1407513881"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lol I like that(°•°)hahahaha hahahahahahahaha lol</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1426008&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="otdbaA8b6yWINDeKu_fcX98yAiPFJEEkIgAmod_fj9I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Taylor Ball (not verified)</span> on 08 Aug 2014 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1426008">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2010/10/29/cats-vs-dogs%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 29 Oct 2010 09:26:27 +0000 gregladen 29907 at https://www.scienceblogs.com We Walk Among Ducks in Wolves Clothing. And Wolves. https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/08/20/we-walk-among-ducks-in-wolves <span>We Walk Among Ducks in Wolves Clothing. And Wolves.</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This is the most challenging time of year for duck watching. But it may be easier than one thinks to bump into a wolf in the forest. </p> <!--more--><p>We've been exploring the western side of the north-central part of the state, in and around Itasca as far west at Tamarack Wildlife Refuge, where we saw several fine herds of tamarack clustered in the usual low flat areas they prefer. </p> <p>Duck watching this time of year is very hard. In the beginning of the season the males are in full bloom. Females found near males are almost always of the same species. (Unless the male is a mallard. They do not discriminate.) So you can use the male and female view of the species to narrow it down and it is never hard to identify the ducks. A little bit later in the year there are ducklings with females, and you don't see the males very often. For some species, the males have gone into the woods. For others, they may have actually started to migrate early. In any event, the females are easy to spot because they are more or less tethered to miniature flocks of miniature ducks, and as they are fully mature females, they look just like they are supposed to in the bird book.</p> <p>Over time, the number of ducklings goes down, thankfully, or we would be living on a planet with ducks piled all the way to the moon. One might wonder where all those ducklings go. Well, they go <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/04/where_have_all_the_ducklings_g.php">here</a>. </p> <p>By the end of the season, the very small number of ducklings that remain have become "mature" in that they are not any longer dependent on their mothers (or crèche keepers) and are off on their own looking rather adult. But the problem is, they are looking rather adult <em>what</em>? Yesterday we saw a duck alone on a pond in a remote woodland west of Itasca and had a hard time identifying it. The duck was floating around with it's bill in it's chest sleeping. After several minutes, he finally woke up enough to stretch his head and we could instantly see that he was a wood duck. Not recognizing a male wood duck may sound rather absurd, and you might wonder why I'm even admitting that. It's a little like looking up at the night sky when the fully lit-up <a href="http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/the-thump-thump-thump-dream/">Goodyear Blimp</a> is going by and not being sure which were the stars and which was the blimp.</p> <p>But a male wood duck born this year and not yet fully mature almost looks like a female teal or something. Especially when it is curled up on the pond sleeping at some distance.</p> <p>It happened today again, at a small pond off the main road at the Tamarack Nature Preserve. We think it was a female gadwall (though it looked a lot like a whistling duck), but it did not quite hit all the points. Then we realized .... oh, right. <em>Immature</em> female gadwall duck. That works.</p> <p>A very large number of nighthawks seem to live among the Tamaracks. We saw no fewer than three flocks, all active mid afternoon. </p> <p>And back in the dense old growth forest that our cabin is in, but just on the other side of the narrow Lake we are on (<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/08/what_i_had_for_brunch_a_trip_t_1.php">Itasca</a>) we came across wolf scat. As I poked at it, revealing a nice piece of enclosed bone, I suddenly realized that it was quite fresh. Fresh enough that I checked over my shoulder. </p> <p>There were no visible wolves. Just ducks. But then, the wolves are always invisible. </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Fri, 08/20/2010 - 16:59</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/aves-birds" hreflang="en">Aves (birds)</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/carnivora" hreflang="en">Carnivora</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/landscape" hreflang="en">Landscape</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mammals" hreflang="en">mammals</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/minnesota" hreflang="en">Minnesota</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/birds" hreflang="en">birds</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mammals" hreflang="en">mammals</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1422520" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1282341633"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Nighthawks, somewhat, and their relatives Whippoorwills are down in Wisconsin a quite noticeable amount. Good to see you are getting some there.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1422520&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="25Fvk082wcMmnxzOoxP5czZLmYhRkxYvD5Pm4U-XNEc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Markk (not verified)</span> on 20 Aug 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1422520">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1422521" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1282356111"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hi folks,<br /> Great to hear people are duck watching. They do the same thing where I am on the border of Germany and Switzerland at the Bodensee (Lake Constance)as it is a main migration route to cross the Alps from north EU to south. As soon as the ducks cross the border from Switzerland to Italy, the locals stop watching and start shooting or netting for the freezer. Funny to hear the old Goodyear blimp mentioned.<br /> Regards JB (LTA comedy site <a href="http://www.airship.me">www.airship.me</a>)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1422521&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_8j3BBW5WXVPbKoSePQKYof2nRFbP67YI8agMaiLd4o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.airshipblimp.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joe Bloggs (not verified)</a> on 20 Aug 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1422521">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1422522" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1282388121"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Nighthawks and Whip-Poor-Wills are common in the Ozarks of Missouri, but I have never seen either a flock of them, or any daytime activity. This is in thirty plus years of close proximity to them. Both rest during the day and are extremely difficult to see as they roost on branches of oaks and hickories.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1422522&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zXEsthCr43UBKACfxeUS7fZpXXMivc5N368XQqExPSI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jim (not verified)</span> on 21 Aug 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1422522">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1422523" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1282397805"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm with jim - flocks of Nighthawks in mid-afternoon??? What's going on up Nort der???</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1422523&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UGRxkYjCMF9XczFMDg74whgpLDw1U6Vv-0O9iwghWEw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ana (not verified)</span> on 21 Aug 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1422523">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1422524" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1282399396"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Flocking is less common than flying around mid day. The word "flocking" here should be defined: From a given point we could see three or four dozen nighthawks feeding. They may very well have been acting as individuals, but all in the same place, eating somme flying flock of bugs that we could not see (I would guess something like a dragon fly).</p> <p>I've seen that sort of behavior many times in the early evening, especially up in Maine. </p> <p>The mid day flight is notable and rare. If you read the secondary literature on nighthakws, it says things like "usually" nocternal and crepuscular. I assume that "usually" means that in the harder literature there is evidence of the occassional day time engorgement. </p> <p>This is not a case of mistaken identity. The behavior was unusual enough that, even though I could tell in a second that they were nighthawks, we checked carefully.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1422524&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OnrteAbHHEHM5AjFlscj4zT_VSuppeiflWS6H0TVLzk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Greg Laden (not verified)</a> on 21 Aug 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1422524">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1422525" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1282400482"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I wasn't doubting you, I was amazed. There has been a lot of dragon fly activity, and that well may draw them out. One thing about whip-poor-wills, they do have an uncanny knack for perching by bedroom windows at night, then letting loose their insane cry.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1422525&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wUS8GVFhEi0nFH6haIelu8EnSuNhcT2WsWG2bfPGDLg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jim (not verified)</span> on 21 Aug 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1422525">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1422526" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1282453507"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Whistling ducks in Minnesota?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1422526&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Eq_74MyGoaDsPx479cfe9lslJ4udnEEHwhHjWnShZ-U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob (not verified)</span> on 22 Aug 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1422526">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1422527" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1282502347"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A friend of mine linked me to this entry. Said it reminded her of me. </p> <p>I live in the Midwest and raise ducks. Domestics, of course - so their lives are somewhat different than those you watch. </p> <p>Our family continues to marvel at the social aspect of our peaceful little duck community. Pekins, Rouens, Golden Cascades, and Khaki Campbells.</p> <p>One of our old gals is on her third 'pairing'. She mourns deeply the loss of a mate, and will park her white self in the center of the pond, hoping - we think - to catch the eye of a hawk. For a week, she becomes unapproachable. After that, she keeps herself apart from the rest for months! This spring, she found her new mate (a Rouen) and they are inseperable. We have three mated pairs, at this point. </p> <p>Right now, all of our boys have their curled tail-feathers back - but they're still cross-dressing otherwise. Twice a year, they do this. </p> <p>Anyhow - nice to read and know that people out there get into duck watching.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1422527&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XwlHqpceBzJAy5I7qD5ajEkwHaS8Qpu7F6PA4Dxu5YI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MJ (not verified)</span> on 22 Aug 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1422527">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2010/08/20/we-walk-among-ducks-in-wolves%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:59:05 +0000 gregladen 29499 at https://www.scienceblogs.com How geology affects your dog's demeanor and the view from your back yard https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/07/05/how-geology-affects-your-dogs <span>How geology affects your dog&#039;s demeanor and the view from your back yard</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Does your back yard slope up, away from your house, or does it slope down? </p> <p>The likelihood that your yard slopes one way or the other ... statistically ... depends in large part on what region you live in. (Here I'll be speaking mainly of the US, but the principle applies broadly.) If you live in New England, your yard is more likely to slope up. If you live in the Midwest/Plains, your yard is more likely to slope down</p> <!--more--><p> This is because in New England, we humans build our settlements around rocks. Because there are rocks. (If you don't believe me, note that all the famous rock farms are in New England.) You get a big aircraft carrier size rock, you build your streets around its base, the houses face the streets, and the yards travel up the rock in the back.</p> <p>In the glaciated Upper Midwest, we build our settlements around swamps and ponds, again, because there are a lot of them. They don't call Minnesota the "Land of Lakes" for its rocks! In fact, rocks are so hard to find around here that when people do find them, they put them out in their front yards like sculptures. </p> <p>So, you build your road on the high ground, put the houses along the road, and by definition (high vs. low) the yards slope down to the swamp. Which, of course, you fill in with dirt, but it's still low ground.</p> <p>This is why dogs in New England are less hyper than dogs in the midwest. When all the yards slope down, even tall fences do not cover the view from the back windows to all the neighbor's yards, and thus, all the neighbor's squirrels and all the neighbor's dogs. But in New England, what with the rocks and all, the view from a person's yard may consist mainly of the person's yard and not so much the neighbor's yards. So, in the Midwest, a dog may have an acre or more of wooded parkland squirrel habitat to look at, while in New England, maybe one squirrel, maybe none. (And, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/04/how_to_live_trap_a_squirrel.php">removing the squirrels</a> in New England has a better chance of working long term as well.)</p> <p>Obviously, this will vary a lot. What I've just said applies more to suburbs than to urbs (though not entirely). In South Minneapolis, for instance, the swamps are all parks. Really. Go look at any park in South Minneapolis and you'll see that it's a major low spot. If it is big enough, there will be a lake down there, if not, just a filled in swamp. The local geology dictates that the yards are mostly flat (and that, therefore, the airport is nearby!) and that the main thing you see in your yard is your garage and the alley. So, South Minneapolis yards are more like New England yards than one might expect. And, in New England, if your yard backs on a stream, obviously, you have a low area, but you don't get the above described view, because the stream will be accompanied by an edaphic woodland riverine forest. People who live in those houses have very nervous dogs, because ... of the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/ode_to_rocky.php">raccoons</a>.</p> <p>This relationship between landscape and lifestyle is fairly trivial, but there are a thousand (well, OK, dozens) of ways in which regional geology and physical geography shape your life, and they can add up. These aspects of the land add to cultural feature of a region to form a palpable gestalt. </p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/01/look_around_you_2_water.php">Look around you.</a> How is your cultural landscape shaped by bedrock, sediments, drainage patterns, and patterns of natural vegetation? </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Mon, 07/05/2010 - 04:30</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/biogeography" hreflang="en">biogeography</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/landscape" hreflang="en">Landscape</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1420154" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1278324514"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OK..i live in South Minneapolis and the streets are lower than our homes which sit like they are on a canal,if the street was was filled with water.great for privacy as passers can't really seen in your windows.so whats the story there?<br /> by the way when they replaced the alley house next door and put a bigger home in the pit made for the basement showed we were on a few feet of black prairie dirt over sand,lots of sand.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1420154&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pXVmsybOoCFiu4SzbLAL7u6ZBFyXcppLP1zaaPcWA7E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dave (not verified)</span> on 05 Jul 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1420154">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1420155" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1278328017"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dave, it depends on where in SoMo you live. I'm guessing either east of Hiawatha or near Minnihaha/50th.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1420155&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2HWl2MGbwF7lnH_IB6j9N1kXvdmtoFQ6frUY2BM5ziU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Greg Laden (not verified)</a> on 05 Jul 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1420155">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1420156" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1278363680"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>haha and 50 area..your knowledge is vast!we are just off the Ft Snelling Reserve and i assume our blocks may have some history.Coldwater Spring is at the end of the street.i'll look the web over for some old maps.thanks for the start into this.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1420156&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-ASeyGplsBXGyj-zd-FyUPgcy9tzwlVz8LFBnXojF3E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dave (not verified)</span> on 05 Jul 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1420156">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1420157" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1278369243"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Live in Roseville, N of St.Paul/Minneapolis. Yard slopes down, ie House is higher than surrounding immediate area. That was intelligently designed (chosen). Grew up in New England in a low lying area....a sump pump can only do so much. As an adult, Ild rather have gravity on my side.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1420157&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fhZFRHixH6oDeOfOoFrUzP8st2qWeYIyrqEnU0Wck8E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://angrybychoice.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lorax (not verified)</a> on 05 Jul 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1420157">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1420158" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1278396438"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>With lakefront property, your front yard faces the lake.</p> <p>Perhaps this post should be retitled "How geology affects your perception of front and back yards"? ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1420158&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bunYFZu7-ji3Qf8m5ihssZdgFaiRh8VVsjDnSBnHP0M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">suomynonA (not verified)</span> on 06 Jul 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1420158">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1420159" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1278396791"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>suomynonA: There is controversy in those seemingly still waters. My wife's family was nearly torn asunder over this. Some thought the side of the house where you pulled up the car was the front, and that the cabin had a lake in it's back yard. Others thought the lake was the front. The patriarch of the family settled the issue by carving wooden signs saying "Front" and "Back" and affixing them to the cabin, one on each side.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1420159&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="b-cc0nDWeWPuGOQJcXAnpECXR6mSerGo8TOsb0rplaE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Greg Laden (not verified)</a> on 06 Jul 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1420159">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1420160" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1278423988"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have lived most of my life in the rock strewn north east and I will say we also have many rock sculptures in the yard because to remove them takes a lot of work!</p> <p>I had a house in Elkton MD which was built on old farm ground. I was building a rock wall to flatten a sloping yard and looking for raw material. I found a rock burial ground along the edge of the trees in the back yard where the farmer had dumped the rocks his plowing had uncovered over many, many years. I was able to build nearly 40 feet of 5 foot high mostly wall from that deposit.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1420160&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JokJ64wrbXHbgKyfNJl1SQKEi_tZECRuIUSfzvBMeWc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeMa (not verified)</span> on 06 Jul 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1420160">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1420161" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1278621045"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This is about the dumbest argument for differences in dog behavior that I've ever read anywhere! Dogs are hyper or not due entirely to how much exercise they get, what they're fed, their genetic background and how much attention and training they get from their owners. It has nothing to do with the geology of their owners' backyard.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1420161&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JJcBNDHHZrJ5ZPC-2JN2d82RJlXrscBjtxiOOJRfBA4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kathy (not verified)</span> on 08 Jul 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1420161">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1420162" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1278622273"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Kathy, you obviously have never seen a dog. </p> <p>Or at least, you've never seen a dog looking out a window in a house with squirrels in the back yard. </p> <p>There are no differences between dogs once they see the squirrel. Well, there is some difference. The dogs that don't go after the squirrel? Those are the dead ones.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1420162&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0R6wIeiH4Mp8Et9ZFzPZUL8hon9kUZsC3DZOQeRX8sk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 08 Jul 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1420162">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2010/07/05/how-geology-affects-your-dogs%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 05 Jul 2010 08:30:06 +0000 gregladen 29208 at https://www.scienceblogs.com Physics, To A Dog (A poem) https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/22/physics-to-a-dog-a-poem <span>Physics, To A Dog (A poem)</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p><em>To a dog, a balloon is a rock that floats.<br /> To a dog, a lever is a perch for stoats.</em></p> <p>To a dog, particle decay<sup>1</sup> is not about nooks<br /> To a dog, gravity is just another way to puke.</p> <p>To a dog, a quantum is a kibble<br /> To a dog, a quark is to nibble.</p> <p>To a dog, where the yard ends begins the cosmos<br /> To a dog, periodic tables<sup>2</sup> iz a no-nos.</p> <p>To a dog, dark matter is what cats must do<br /> To a dog, string theory is for cats too.</p> <p>To a dog, it is better to sleep<br /> To a dog, don't tickle the heap.<sup>3</sup></p> <p>____________________________<br /><strong>Notes</strong><br /><sup>1</sup>Bone munching<br /><sup>2</sup>Do not take food off the table. Periodically.<br /><sup>3</sup>A veiled reference to "tickling the dragon's tail" during early A-bomb research. Dogs prefer if you tickle their stomach instead.<br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2009/06/how_to_teach_physics_to_your_d_3.php"><br /> Why this poem? </a></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Mon, 06/22/2009 - 09:10</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1394093" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1245770648"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Chad Orzel might disagree with this. Emmie seems to know enough physics to understand that a balloon isn't a rock that floats.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1394093&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YgDdv4arGrIRA5Mz7QNOLlbCO8O6zFe2qjLDaXkS4TM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://religionsetspolitics.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joshua Zelinsky (not verified)</a> on 23 Jun 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1394093">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2009/06/22/physics-to-a-dog-a-poem%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:10:09 +0000 gregladen 26852 at https://www.scienceblogs.com Which is Better: Cats or Dogs? https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/30/which-is-better-cats-or-dogs-4 <span>Which is Better: Cats or Dogs?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p><strong>Katz:</strong></p> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wvo-g_JvURI&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wvo-g_JvURI&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object><p> <strong>Dawg:</strong></p> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qk1pOUb8a_g&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qk1pOUb8a_g&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object><p> <strong>OK, so the Dawg obvoiusly wins. Let's give the katz one more chance:</strong></p> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/g6BmU49XG7w&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/g6BmU49XG7w&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object></div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Sat, 05/30/2009 - 06:01</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/cat" hreflang="en">Cat</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391779" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1243690946"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Cats know better than to try playing dead. They know anything dead is fair game for being eaten. That's why humans don't dare play dead around their cats.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391779&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6cbH0mhlPDWXfFzCtLZTmRzwBI6zgd8g6cnoNrW0aPA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://drvitelli.typepad.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Romeo Vitelli (not verified)</a> on 30 May 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391779">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391780" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1243711330"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Katz can fly!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391780&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="x-pv3F0ry2IcWb3YhYtkwfnneAnmQBvcQilD7FA3Jq8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">xavier (not verified)</span> on 30 May 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391780">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391781" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1243714298"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Two comments here:</p> <p>First,I <b><i>loved</i></b> that video of the cat chasing the bear away. That was precious! Second, somewhere in my absolutely <b><i>massive</i></b> oollection of pictures of critters(and horses, and Neandertal reconstructions, eI have a picture, taken several years ago, some place in Siberia(yeah, literally), of a Siamese cat mother nursing some baby wolf pups whose parents had been killed or injured. She was nursing them quite happily, along with her kittens. . . .<br /> Anne G</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391781&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AZrjtIb3Yp9OnCND2Ip8MeNxREG4UlSlrp0lMa4i9ZU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.writersdailygrind.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Anne Gilbert (not verified)</a> on 30 May 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391781">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1391782" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1243714516"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>... and then they ate her. Right? Am I right? </p> <p>It's a Freudian thing. Mothers always get the bad deal.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391782&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5oM41crP7i9sDu_sttjv220fZwt1ZzmDY_FIcqY5QhQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 30 May 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391782">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391783" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1243882863"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here's an equation I found on morenewmath.com:</p> <p>Dogs = Cats + Loyalty</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391783&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RO2Fcc54Aij40YEUXv0LOe--lu574SVWqPBoAtBG15Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.agoutloud.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Anne Good (not verified)</a> on 01 Jun 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391783">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391784" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1281565675"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think dogs and cats are both ok. Some people are dog people.But some people are cat people.So in conclusion it all depends on what kind of person you are.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391784&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c6_JSxiPcYtaO1gLIoBa-uLK1CpBmt1LbAa7NpY8Pzw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jon Reyrao (not verified)</span> on 11 Aug 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391784">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391785" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429098112"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>my opinion is that dogs are better. why? because if you throw a ball for a cat do you think its going to fetch it? i doubt it. yet a dog could have had a bath could have stayed up all night barking and could have just come from a walk and you throw a ball and it will fetch it! that is what i call loyalty and a pet. dogs are amazing! (15079059)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391785&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1dDRQ6NtqXegffzQaFbB1fFcVySScy9scPds2_4NJAc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tiara padayachee (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391785">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391786" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429098252"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I for one can not choose between cats and dogs seeing that both creatures make wonderful companions (15090478)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391786&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="r9n3VhncDspjqc-0qRFe2oy54aS81ZRhNHOsMaVD60w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">natalia moodley (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391786">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391787" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429099392"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I do not like the fact that cats and dogs are being compared, because I am a fan of both. I find them both as very interesting and intriguing creatures in their own very special way.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391787&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="scJBJLqkctesJALA0zumMxsTwc2kDVaGvInEODbN3XM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Trishika Parhalad (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391787">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391788" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429099777"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I believe that both these beautiful animals are wonderful pets to have . They have different characteristics and it all depends on what your personality is , that determines which animal is the one for you . Dogs are more loyal and playful , whilst cats are self sufficient and they don't exactly eat just anything , they like to be taken care of in special ways . Both these animals need love and attention and I would never be able to choose between them </p> <p>(15112315)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391788&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Pn3pBI3J1Cxldzm_m2h58ODEShRDap_T1CLdncg0hUM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shayuri R Deepak (not verified)</span> on 15 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391788">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391789" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1429337737"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I agree with you Shayuri. I enjoy the company of both these amazing creatures .</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391789&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DazoFFeNbY0uhbptshhpQvHjB-ylrAVpkWMoDGzxGCA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Natalia (not verified)</span> on 18 Apr 2015 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391789">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2009/05/30/which-is-better-cats-or-dogs-4%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Sat, 30 May 2009 10:01:53 +0000 gregladen 26688 at https://www.scienceblogs.com The Corgi Dog Story https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/09/under-the-present-circumstance <span>The Corgi Dog Story</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Under<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/which_is_better_cats_or_dogs_1.php#c1622152"> the present circumstances</a>, it is clear that I now have to tell my one Welsh Corgi story. This is about a corgi named Dillon. </p> <!--more--><p>Dillon was Irv and Nancy DeVore's Corgi. (Irv was my advisor in graduate school.) They had two corgi's, Dillon and another one with a similarly Welsh name that I can't recall at the moment. One or both of them came from amateur breeders whom I happen for entirely unrelated reasons to know, who in turn get their corgis directly from the Queen of England. Or the Queen of England gets her corgi's from them. I can never remember. </p> <p>Anyway, you all know what a corgi looks like (see the video linked above if you don't) and the major feature of these dogs is their short legs.</p> <p>Now, around the corner from Irv's house was a restaurant called Nicks. Or Charlies. Depends on when you may have gone there (the name changed, but nothing else about the place did). If you've ever seen the movie The Paper Chase, then you've seen this restaurant. It's the place the law students go and hang out. <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/03/evolution_of_the_lexicon.php">If you've read this post</a> you've experienced this hamburger joint vicariously. But all you really need to know about Nicks for this story are two things:</p> <p>1) In the evening, it is increasingly full of increasingly drunk Harvard Law students, Anthropology and Science graduate students, and older undergrads; and</p> <p>2) The front door of Nicks is hard to open and when it does open there is an explosive exchange of air between the inside and outside so a lot of strange things can happen. This occurs because of the big fire inside the restaurant where they cook all the hamburgers (... and lamb chop platters).</p> <p>So every evening Irv would walk Dillon around the neighborhood where he would defecate in designated spots behind bushes and in various nooks. (Dillon, not Irv. Defecating.) Very commonly, Irv would take a swing around to Mass Avenue, and part of his walk would bring him south from Linnaean Street, and thus, past Nicks. </p> <p>So one evening, a bit late, Irv and Dillon were heading south on Linnaean Street, and just about to cross in front of Nicks. Suddenly, the door of the restaurant burst open. A vast amount of air was instantly sucked into the restaurant to replace the O2 that had been burned out of the atmosphere. The responding recoil shock wave caught the young man who was about to stagger out of the restaurant off guard, and as he stepped out onto the side walk, he lost his balance and fell to his knees, his baseball cap flying in one direction and his eyeglasses in the other direction. </p> <p>Irv instantly stopped in is tracks and reigned in the corgi, who stood waiting and at the ready, as well trained dogs do.</p> <p>The young man started to get his wits about him, and still on all fours looked around and found himself face to face with Dillon. </p> <p>Dillon stared at the student. The student stared at Dillon. </p> <p>And after a moment of contemplation, the stunned young man vociferated a startled lament:</p> <p>"Lassie!" he yelled. "What have they done to your legs!?!?!?"</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Sat, 05/09/2009 - 16:21</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/anthropology" hreflang="en">Anthropology</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/cambridge" hreflang="en">cambridge</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/irv-devore" hreflang="en">irv devore</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/welsh-corgi" hreflang="en">welsh corgi</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/anthropology" hreflang="en">Anthropology</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391293" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1241906369"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That's funny.</p> <p>I've been told that corgis are cattle-herding dogs. They herd by nipping at the cows' heels. So they have been selectively bred for short legs so that when the cows kick at them, their hooves go harmlessly over the dogs' heads. </p> <p>They do have a tendency to nip. I've read that the Queen's dogs have a tendency to bite people's legs at dinner, but if you kick at them they set up a fuss and she doesn't like that. </p> <p>All hearsay, of course.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391293&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Cwjy75GMYf3nLXOoP_VcMTqm8_SGGkmRhSEFpHQZEtQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://sciencenotes.wordpress.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Monado (not verified)</a> on 09 May 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391293">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391294" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1241933388"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm a connoisseur of personal anecdotes, and this is a good one, Greg!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391294&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oYkHlS4SIggMTj_ZcEasER8J7RSm0e2NtNHdhnOhAg4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.silphium.net/blog" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Larry Ayers (not verified)</a> on 10 May 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391294">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391295" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1241946281"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>from Philip Norman's <i>Awful Moments</i>:</p> <blockquote><p>Queen Mary was terrified of dogs, and lived in fear of the ferocious little Welsh corgis favoured by her granddaughter, the future Elizabeth II. At a Buckingham Palace garden party, Princess Elizabeth handed her a dog biscuit to give to the most ill-tempered of the corgis. Queen Mary in panic handed it on to her nearest neighbour, the Archbishop of Canterbury who, mistaking it for a teatime titbit, gratefully popped it into his mouth.</p></blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391295&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vQuLrfOJlHhLDalsA_XWpgjkPqLzzRoMQJw_hfpXKMQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pierce R. Butler (not verified)</span> on 10 May 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391295">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1391296" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1241949306"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Royal Family must have ROFLOL'ed!!!!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391296&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="O-j4l9Hqs-08IP-MkKlUP1X6VUGwGCgGcpwmMNZEXV8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 10 May 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391296">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391297" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1241989297"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Pembrokes are more nippy than Cardigans, at least with people's hands. Both breeds can produce good varmint hunters.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391297&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UhETGzUeB5YBjfBFyx97qwfkcYoAXxgXxvPXXYPqfxM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Argon (not verified)</span> on 10 May 2009 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391297">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391298" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1289343949"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Corgis are great dogs! Fun, sturdy and great w kids. Most of them anyway. Great dogs if uhave a small yard like mine.<br /> And fun to watch running like the wind on those stubby legs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391298&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GvTOqvk5FiAlRwupZ2OV6LpS1NgdpFsj6p-Ya4fe0IY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Corgi owner (not verified)</span> on 09 Nov 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391298">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1391299" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1292659685"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>well, each dog owner for sure has his own story of his pet.And it's nice to read them on blogs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1391299&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZclqzZEpyiq_-smYJqIPjikm9BcXQGKCaZSjhCMHD_Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.squidoo.com/dogcratetraining101" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">The Dogteacher (not verified)</a> on 18 Dec 2010 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1391299">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2009/05/09/under-the-present-circumstance%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Sat, 09 May 2009 20:21:53 +0000 gregladen 26581 at https://www.scienceblogs.com Super Dog Saves Other Dog https://www.scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/12/06/super-dog-saves-other-dog <span>Super Dog Saves Other Dog</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3XJQTaC-R6w&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3XJQTaC-R6w&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object><p> Hat tip: Ana the Blogless</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Sat, 12/06/2008 - 13:09</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dogs-0" hreflang="en">Dogs</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1383500" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1228590179"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'll bet this really irks religious people.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1383500&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wXlXlXMQ-eUzIB8hyEtclU8cWxwSmgmudxXaDNmuIx8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gilipollas Caraculo (not verified)</span> on 06 Dec 2008 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1383500">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1383501" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1228598529"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Your video link doesn't seem to work anymore.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1383501&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="T0Op5Z-GxMDtZA_9JOzGzHrgQ9gVXjqo4tD_T6keAg8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://drvitelli.typepad.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Romeo Vitelli (not verified)</a> on 06 Dec 2008 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1383501">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1383502" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1228600622"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>fixed</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1383502&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mQ5lyh6HEhUjSrS4HpnFGhzHLau6AIgy2UaDbdVAQJU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 06 Dec 2008 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1383502">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1383503" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1228601400"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>will someone explain to me again how the bible is the source of morality?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1383503&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-HWRYlU9I2xQpfk0E0C3yZQU06CmMsi0dz28Xzz4iYg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://toomanytribbles.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">toomanytribbles (not verified)</a> on 06 Dec 2008 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1383503">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1383504" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1228680601"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well, you see, it is really Dog, not God. The writers were dyslexic.</p> <p>hmm...obviously, the dog was not trying to help the other one, it was looking to eat it, and we just interpreted it the wrong way. It is a "dog eat dog" world, so think of that the next time you sleep with a dog loose in the house.... (my nearly 1-yr old puppy sleeps on my bed with me, btw).</p> <p>Of course, you have the Buddhist Koan about a dog having Buddha-nature, so maybe they are right...</p> <p>Nah, it's just that altruistic behavior is part of our shared evolutionary heritage. Along with empathy that makes you cringe when you see the dog hit. Poor thing. Any idea what happened?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1383504&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4s35W_SXOdNrWdlgb_5gq2qatKfm5WJNtsi16waBem0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Badger3k (not verified)</span> on 07 Dec 2008 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1383504">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1383505" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1228682668"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Are you sure this is a "heroic dog" video? It looks more like a "hungry dog helps himself to roadkill" video.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1383505&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sW9htLMkFJpK4MEGTBLclfeTl82WIa4QIZsA9YP_enw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://drvitelli.typepad.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Romeo Vitelli (not verified)</a> on 07 Dec 2008 <a href="https://www.scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/4600/feed#comment-1383505">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2008/12/06/super-dog-saves-other-dog%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Sat, 06 Dec 2008 18:09:48 +0000 gregladen 25596 at https://www.scienceblogs.com