A reader passed along a link to this post on Short memories: AIDS denialism and vaccine resistance. The author learned that a friend had dated an AIDS denialist:
This was absolutely the wrong thing to say to our friend, who had been an AIDS activist since the early days of the epidemic, had nursed several beloved friends through the illness, had seen way too many of those friends die... and had seen others come back from the brink of death when the protease inhibitors and combination therapies finally came out.So Ingrid and I were talking, not only about how ignorant AIDS denialism is and what a perfect example of the Galileo Fallacy it's proving to be... but also about how profoundly insensitive and clueless it was for this woman to talk this way to someone who'd been through the worst days of the epidemic. Doesn't she remember? we said. Doesn't she know what AIDS was like before the drug cocktails came along?
And it occurred to both of us:
No. She doesn't remember.
She argues that the same thing has happened with vaccination--that people simply don't remember the havoc vaccine-preventable diseases used to wreak--an attitude that leads to apathy. As she notes, the best public health is invisible--preventing disease rather than responding to outbreaks, so it's difficult for the average individual to realize how important it is until it's broken.
I won't summarize everything; she makes a number of excellent points that readers here will appreciate, so go check it out.
It's no wonder brave Sir John hauled ass out of here almost before he arrived. I'd love to see him attempt that crap in a fair, public debate where Maggiore can actually reply.
1. It as not the test results thmselves that were misleading, it was the fact that they were reported by Christine Maggiore. It no Bergman's fault she didn't get her facts straight from the scientific source: it's Maggiore's fault for having the audacity to speak about her own case.
2. Now that it turns out Bergman was "wrong" (meaning another view suits the agenda better), she was merely
"opining" - not basing her statements on rock solid HIV science. So when one is shown to be wrong, one just changes to the opposite opinion, which is once again rock solid science because based on tests that previously only sufficed for (wrong) opinion, and continues attacking the wronged party as if nothing had happened. "Opining" sure is cheap, especially for AIDStruth lawyers.
3. Otherwise the circular logic is impeccable: Eliza-Jane died of AIDS because her mother had HIV, and her mother had HIV because Eliza-Jane died of AIDS.
Perhaps we could entice Brave Sir John back just one more time to confirm publicly that he is not merely "opining" this time, but staking his reputation on this analysis based on the incontrovertibly "solid medical evidence" of the p24 "findings"?
"interestting new material that will be posted there in the coming weeks." john moore
LOL look at this turkey, goes on and on about spelling errors and how they imply people are stupid, well, using your own standards, you're stupid! LOL
If that EJ was truly hiv positive, we would have an hiv positive test, the fact that there isnt such a positive test is very suspicious to say the least. SO when EJ was dying they did a p24 test, but not an antibody test, im supposed to beleive that?
"Pat,
If you think children know what's best for them, then there's really nothing more for me to talk about."
Do you know how old he is? No, you don't.
Amazing that you chimme in here knowing even less than me
"Also, I'm certain you don't know what "theory" means in science."
How could I if it is a different language than english altogether. This is what it means in english :
1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6. contemplation or speculation.
7. guess or conjecture.
They are cunningly hidden under Scientific Studies where no denialist would ever think to look.
By all means go back to arguing about whether Duesberg is a homophobe or just an idiot if it helps you to avoid dealing with the science.
Here's a fact I can by:
"Hiv Antibodies are observed in almost all or all patients with AIDS".
the "fact" then that "HIV causes AIDS" is what I call an educated guess. "HOW" HIV causes disease is what is being tested and has been for the last 20 some years. Last time I checked, Fauci said the world was loosing the battle against HIV/AIDS.
They are cunningly hidden under Scientific Studies where no denialist would ever think to look.
Haha good one... You do have your moments Dr. Noble. When I said science, I did mean more than a mere list studies. Am I supposed to take it that each of those studies represent the immutable "Truth"?
But I guess the real science is where different unfortunate authors have submitted an AIDStruth exclusive about what their studies REALLY mean.
Pat left out the definition of conspiracy theory.
I'll give the definition as provided by Celia Farber.
The truth appears to be somewhat more mundane.
HIV Skeptic registered a domain name in 2005. Despite announcing "The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis has enterted the blogosphere. We shall not be leaving any time soon." they let the domain name lapse. The last entry in the blog is over a year old. Some porn company bought the expired domain name and redirected it to their porn site.
But if Celia really wants to believe that John Moore is hacking "rethinker" websites she can keep on doing so. At least we'll get a few laughs.
Pat,
See, a scientific theory is a logical, testable, predictive model of natural phenomena that's supported by experimental evidence. So yes, "HIV causes AIDS" remains a solid theory.
"Do you know how old he is? No, you don't."
Also, answering your own question is just pretentious. Answering your own question and being wrong is pretentious and stupid.
Round and round we go.
The "rethinkers" keep on demanding a list of studies.
If you are going to pretend to be interested in the science then address the science.
If not then continue with the clever rebuttals through macaques and photoshop.
Dr. Noble, your "moments" are rather transient. If you think a conspiracy and/or John Moore is needed to get the idea to hack into a website, I guess it's also conspiracy theorists who start off the Comments to each of Tara's inspiring HIV threads by speculating on when the vile denialists are going to hijack it.
The "rethinkers" keep on demanding a list of studies.
Ah, so that's the list of studies that retr0actively convinced the world that HIV causes AIDS back in '84-'85
The idea that the evidence in studies published after 1986 can be ignored has to be one of the dafter denialist ideas.
How can you ignore the natural history studies that show a much higher mortality in people that are infected with HIV?
"See, a scientific theory is a logical (yes, there is some logic in HIV supported by wild explaining away in the case of Africa), testable (here you can teach me something), predictive model (evidently not as with Africa, again) of natural phenomena that's supported by experimental evidence. So yes, "HIV causes AIDS" remains a solid theory(Thank you, thank you)
Is the theory solid enough that they could justify Moore's and Bergan's unambiguous departures from basic social etiquette? Are they really the ones I should defer to on these matters? They who would mobilse political influence and legal authority to silence any critic? They, who would galvanise a populist chivy and shamelessly attack affected individuals who have lost so much more than they ever will all the while, perversely, being paid to "save" their lives.?
These two at the very least deserve a spanking here from everyone at scienceblogs for being the complete tits they are.Someone should also explain to these assholes that there is no "Bohemian Grove" of Denialism. It is not an actual "camp" with flag poles and morning roll calls.
"Pat left out the definition of conspiracy theory.
I'll give the definition as provided by Celia Farber.
On many occasions, I have been told that AIDS dissident haters have hacked dissent site links, so that they go instead to porn sites. The site "HIV Skeptics" on your blogroll does just that.
The truth appears to be somewhat more mundane.
HIV Skeptic registered a domain name in 2005. Despite announcing "The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis has enterted the blogosphere. We shall not be leaving any time soon." they let the domain name lapse. The last entry in the blog is over a year old. Some porn company bought the expired domain name and redirected it to their porn site.
But if Celia really wants to believe that John Moore is hacking "rethinker" websites she can keep on doing so. At least we'll get a few laughs.
Posted by: Chris Noble | November 1, 2007 8:03 PM "
With what nerve do you try to associate me with any of that?
Moore's idiotic tampering of Bialy's Wikipeadia entry is a form "hacking" and real childish behavior.
Dear MEC,
I apologize for returning to old news, but I don't share your seeming surfeit of free time. I couldn't get back to you until now. You wrote, among many other things,
How exactly you or your intel officers have arrived at the conclusion that Duesberg or anybody else has "exposed" anything, since this is not exactly a clandestine operation[,] is beyond me (necessary comma inserted free-of-charge).
MEC,
It was not I, but Peter Duesberg himself who (reportedly) decided that a minor denialist activist in San Diego had written the form letter, and it was Peter Duesberg who (reportedly) felt the need to inform a certain someone (whom I will not name) about his knowledge or hunch.
I was simply providing the information (that Duesey had fingered an activist as the form-letter author) to Roy. As I stated earlier, Duesberg does not have a particularly encouraging track record when it comes to reasoning and telling the truth. He could be wrong. Perhaps another person wrote the form-letter that "greenapple" copied; perhaps "greenapple" is the author him- or herself.
I didn't make claims about "greenapple" might be.
I didn't make claims about who wrote the silly form letter for the amusement of Cornell administrators.
And my "intel officers" didn't make claims about it, either, although they have been arguing vigorously amongst themselves about whether you, MEC, are Claus Jensen or Anthony Liversidge. I have told them repeatedly that your identity does not matter in the least, particularly since Mr. Jensen and Mr. Liversidge are virtual clones of each other, in terms of both their faith-based positions on HIV and their writing (dis)abilities.
This kind of inane infighting about inconsequential details is what I'm forced to deal with every day in Orthodox Intell HQ. AND the water cooler is broken. It's enough to send me begging for another sabbatical.
"Are you sure you meant to say "vapid"? It doesn't really fit."
Sure it does. Vapid: having lost life, sharpness, or flavor.
A Vapid answer:
"I'm not sure why you're asking me about Jeanne Bergman or Maggiore, since I don't know those people. If you want to know the answer, you should probably do some research. Or, if you have some info on them and just want my opinion on it, then I would be happy to do that."
btw have any of the denialist trolls on this site failed to work out that pat is Christine Maggiore, the HIV+ women who killed her own baby by neglecting to take ARVs then failing to provide the right healthcare for the baby as she died of AIDS, the woman who in any just society would have been locked up for manslaughter, the woman who now just wont let the poor kid rest in peace.
While ElkMountainMan is on the topic of denialist impersonations, it should also be noted that the AIDStruth cybercrime team has learned that the posting from Phillip Johnson above on Oct 31 10PM was actually
written by Michael Geiger of San Diego, HEAL and not by Professor
Philip Johnson. Misappropriating another person's identity is a
cybercrime, so they now have another addition to the files for the FBI
on the criminal behavior of the AIDS denialists.
It is ironic,
however, for one AIDS denialist (Geiger) to pretend to be another one
(Johnson). There appears to be madness in the method, if no method in
the madness, on this Blog.
This thread... ugh, the lack of critical thinking from the denialist camp makes reading fstdt a pleasure sometimes.
Don't have the time unfortunately to get in depth, but the constant referral to the anti-retrovirals as "most toxic compounds known to man" strikes me as stupid. There are far, far, far more deadly compounds both synthetic and natural which have far smaller LD50 limits.
This is from vague memories though, but if jspreen would kindly provide the LD50 numbers for HART treatments, in the context of other compounds LD50's, all from scientific sources, I'm sure we could sort this out easily and objectively.
Pat,
"Is the theory solid enough that they could justify Moore's and Bergan's unambiguous departures from basic social etiquette?"
Pot. Kettle. Black. What is your obsession with those people, anyways? I've already told you that I don't know them.
"With what nerve do you try to associate me with any of that?"
A bit oversensitive, are we? Any association is only in your mind. Noble didn't imply anything. He simply stated that "HIV Skeptic" did not continue paying for their domain, hence the link to another site.
Also, I fail to see how stating my ignorance in a matter and offering what help I can give is "vapid" in any way. Judging by the usual tone of your posts, you might have mistook my lack of vitriol for a lack of vigor. Maybe you are unaccustomed to a more genteel response? Personally, I find it pointless to insult people, as it hardly makes them more receptive to further discussion.
How BuffaloHumpWoman.
I come in peace
You very right buffalohumpwoman. This site madness. Much madness here.
By the way BuffaloHump:
Your name remind me much of leading effect of Mark Wainberg's protease inhibitors. Many thousands who take this whitemans drugs come down with that disfigurement commonly called Buffalo Humps.
Must be revenge of the redskin for breaking all treaties. You whiteys should all take this medication and turn into buffalo for us to hunt again on wide open prairies.
But what exactly your point? Worried are you? Not me.
What, Me worry?
"If you are going to pretend to be interested in the science then address the science."
Seeking out the top two bull shit illusorily studies on AIDStruth's scientific studies link that was illustrated back in this tread, I think by Noble.
'A retrovirus belonging to the family of recently discovered human T-cell leukemia viruses (HTLV), but clearly distinct from each previous isolate, has been isolated from a Caucasian patient with signs and symptoms that often precede the acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS). This virus is a typical type-C RNA tumor virus, buds from the cell membrane, prefers magnesium for reverse transcriptase activity, and has an internal antigen (p25) similar to HTLV p24. Antibodies from serum of this patient react with proteins from viruses of the HTLV-I subgroup, but type-specific antisera to HTLV-I do not precipitate proteins of the new isolate. The virus from this patient has been transmitted into cord blood lymphocytes, and the virus produced by these cells is similar to the original isolate. From these studies it is concluded that this virus as well as the previous HTLV isolates belong to a general family of T-lymphotropic retroviruses that are horizontally transmitted in humans and may be involved in several pathological syndromes, including AIDS.
PMID: 6189183"
Why is it bull shit? Read the fine print people! "Signs and symptoms that often precede the syndrome.." WTF? Which of the 29 defining illnesses did the pick from or was it that bogus under 200 CD4 Count? Then, keyword: "similar," (not the same as) P24. Then again "similar" is used as to original isolate, which only a retrovirus (keyword): "belonging" in a family leukemia viruses. Here when looking at it logically, it's guess work and setting your sites on something and making sure it happens to support the end goal, which really doesn't do that even.
Peripheral blood lymphocytes from patients with the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) or with signs or symptoms that frequently precede AIDS (pre-AIDS) were grown in vitro with added T-cell growth factor and assayed for the expression and release of human T-lymphotropic retroviruses (HTLV). Retroviruses belonging to the HTLV family and collectively designated HTLV-III were isolated from a total of 48 subjects including 18 of 21 patients wih pre-AIDS, three of four clinically normal mothers of juveniles with AIDS, 26 of 72 adult and juvenile patients with AIDS, and from one of 22 normal male homosexual subjects. No HTLV-III was detected in or isolated from 115 normal heterosexual subjects. The number of HTLV-III isolates reported here underestimates the true prevalence of the virus since many specimens were received in unsatisfactory condition. Other data show that serum samples from a high proportion of AIDS patients contain antibodies to HTLV-III. That these new isolates are members of the HTLV family but differ from the previous isolates known as HTLV-I and HTLV-II is indicated by their morphological, biological, and immunological characteristics. These results and those reported elsewhere in this issue suggest that HTLV-III may be the primary cause of AIDS.
PMID: 6200936
Why is this bull shit? Like the first one above, which AIDS signs? Then it says, "grown in vitro with added T-cell growth factor," which means forced with stimulant proteins. Then after all the mumbo-jumbo with numbers, normal, hetero, homo, juvenile, the end statement says, "may be the primary cause..." This doesn't say anything as definitive.
Both pieces make assumptions based upon assumptions and don't prove a thing.
Gee Carter,
It can be hard to fit all of the details into the abstract.
Maybe you should try reading the papers--even studying the data--before drawing a conclusion.
Rather than reading imaginary fine print you would do better to read the actual article.
The signs referred to are the characteristic depletion of particular subsets of T-cells. By an amazing coincidence these are exactly the same cells that are infected by HIV. You can call CD4+ counts bogus as much as you want but the literature is very clear. When CD4+ cell counts get down to double or single figures the risk for opportunistic infections and AIDS related malignancies skyrockets.
I have a personal theory, for those of you high and mighty mainstream supporters who are so indulged.
I think that and especially in those early years, why nobody noticed the holes and bogus assumptions built into those hundreds, now thousands, of documents all supporting one another and yet still proves nothing and still has yet to find a vaccine/cure, it's because it at least seemed (seems) plausible, quite possibly in part because most work states stuff like, "more studies are needed, we assume, might be, and seems like", are what ends these long winded pieces looking at retrovirus and it's surrounding crap. I bet these works get a raised eyebrow from most anybody who has a logical free thinking brain, even in the fields of science and medicine, but uncommon and unlikely is the person to read more deeply to find the grave inconsistencies, circular reasoning and utter non-sense riddled throughout the mainstream research. This is because no one wants to actually believe all this work could quite be a complete waste of time and money, besides "I've seen - Uncle Charlie" died of AIDS, so it must be true, and "I'm sure they got this figured out and the vaccine is just around the corner"........... YUPO, Just around the corner from Uranus!
GEEZ you dips are quick at the stake:
So seriously, you actually think that my take on the Study's statement summarizing the essential facts contained in a document is not enough and i should read through the entire self serving redundancy contained therein to extrapolate a better understanding? Is that all you can say? Come on now, I thought you'd have much more in depth discussion on how your so God damn right and I'm so God damn wrong....
Your entire argument consists of pronouncing the paper to be "bullshit" without even reading it.
You are so sure you are right you don't even bother to read the studies.
I thought you would have learnt something after you cut and pasted from Duesberg's rape of the Palella article.
I thought you would have learnt something after you cut and pasted a lot of references from the aras website that you hadn't read and naively believed that they supported your foregone conclusion that HAART is not beneficial and is in fact extremely harmful.
To paraphrase an expert Denialist:
"You can call CD4+ counts bogus as much as you want but the literature is very clear."
There's no need to throw pure bull shit around Chris.
The data generally accepted as proving the HIV theory of AIDS, HIV cytopathy, destruction of T4 lymphocytes, and the relationsip between T4 cells, HIV and the acquired immune deficiency clinical syndrome are critically evaluated. It is concluded these data do not prove that HIV preferentially destroys T4 cells or has any cytopathic effects, neither do they demonstrate that T4 cells are preferentially destroyed in AIDS patients, or that T4 cell destruction and HIV are either necessary or sufficient prerequisites for the development of the clinical syndrome.Genetica 95: 5-24, 1995
Carter. You haven't read the papers. You show no signs that you understand any of the science. The only thing that you have demonstrated is that you can cut and paste from Denialist websites and parrot some of their soundbites.
As such you believe the Denialists purely on the basis of their conclusions.
The Perth Group were given their chance to convince the world when the editor-in-chief of Genetica gave the Denialists a whole edition of the journal to put their best arguments forward. Duesberg was the editor so peer review was no impediment. The end result was that they convinced no-one who knew anything about the subject.
There is a neat inverse relationship between knowledge of the subject and believing the Perth Group.
We have animal models such as the SHIV/macaque model. Macaques infected with SHIV show progressive CD4+ cell loss, immune suppression, opportunistic infection and death. Uninfected controls don't. Reproducible results.
and SHIV = HIV?
SHIVs are essentially HIV with some small portions of the genome changed so that they infect simian CD4+ cells.
HIV-1 is essentially SIVcpz after it jumped to humans. They are basically the same virus. There is more difference between HIV-1 and HIV-2 than there is between HIV-1 and SIVcpz.
The idea that you can ignore the results from animal models using SIV or SHIV is simply daft.
Besides I've also given you references for the SCIDhu mouse/HIV model. HIV reproducibly causes CD4+ cell depletion and immune suppression in these animals.
There are also studies from Ascher et al, Schecter et al and Darby et al etc that show that people infected with HIV show progressive CD4+ cell depletion.
Ha, ha, ha!!! Is that all you guys from the shit rush can come up with?
there are far far more deadly compounds
So you do admit they're deadly, huh? Good!! First time I read that straight from a HIV=Aids nerd's keyboard. And of course there are more deadly chemicals, you blockhead. What I meant to say is that you guys are absolutely out of your mind to so absolutely inconditionnaly push the HIV=Aids=Take_Poison_Or_You_Die when so many so-called infected get away from it with a good portion of gramma's vegetable soup.
Jan Spreen has again raised the issue of nutrition and AIDS.
Good nutrition is very important. It is not a substitute for proper medical treatment, whether in AIDS or after a car crash. Nutrition should be an important part of a comprehensive treatment package, but as the only treatment strategy, it does not work.
A properly nourished person with a well-balanced diet feels better, heals faster, and lives longer than a malnourished person. Inadequate nutrition weakens the immune system (but, no, virusmyth readers, it is not AIDS). In the presence of dietary deficiencies, infection, disease, and death may be more likely to occur. If the condition is treatable, the undernourished patient may recover more slowly than others and tolerate the treatment less well.
Braganza recently submitted several examples of authors who claim that nutrition supplements are effective treatments for AIDS. Indeed, the role of nutrition (in general, and for various nutrients in particular) in HIV infection and AIDS has always been an important area of research.
Unfortunately, the results Braganza provided were published on an internet website or not published in reputable journals. As adele and trrll noted earlier, these results are difficult or impossible to evaluate well because they are written poorly and important details and analyses are left out.
In any case, what these authors were trying to establish is already well-known: nutrition is good, for HIV-positive patients, for AIDS patients and for everyone else.
I strongly agree with those who argue that proper nutrition is more important for a population of people (with low HIV prevalence, anyway) than access to ARVs. But the literature cannot support the argument that proper nutrition eliminates the need for ARVs.
Good nutrition and antiretrovirals: this is a false dichotomy. Everyone should have access to good nutrition, and every HIV-positive person should have the option of standard medical treatment.
"I find it pointless to insult people, as it hardly makes them more receptive to further discussion."
Yet it is exactly what you did. You butt in making a comment without knowing what exactly is going on and that is what makes your contributions vapid...lifeless. You are right though about insulting people and loosing the audience. JP Moore lost me because he is such a massive asshole.
I apologize for returning to old news, but I don't share your seeming surfeit of free time
Sir Elkie, that's a remarkable statement considering the evidence in your mails concerning what you ARE spending your time on. Surely that must qualify as "free time" bu any standards. Please don't pretend you're on a salary while doing this shit or I may have to contact your
employer.
How old are you anyway? The fact that you've now dreamed up this pitiful cloak and dagger yarn on top of your Loch Ness Monster story makes me suspect you're too young to be blogging without your parents' permission.
It was not I, but Peter Duesberg himself who (reportedly) decided that a minor denialist activist in San Diego had written the form letter, and it was Peter Duesberg who (reportedly) felt the need to inform a certain someone (whom I will not name) about his knowledge or hunch. . . (and on, and on, and on from the guy who claims he doesn't have any free time!)
Sir Elkie, I don't recall seeing mythomania listed among the side-effects of Thorazine, so I guess you must be doing combination therapy now. But for cripes sakes you pathetic coward, can't you at least be man enough to stand by your lies? Now it's "Duesberg (reportedly) this,
(reportedly) that". Gimme a break! While you're at it,perhaps you'd like to clarify that, like Bergman, you were merely "opining" about Al-Bayati and the baby killers?
Look it's easy Elkie, just admit you are not that old, in over you head, and so you made the story up. It's ok, I won't threaten you with the FBI. Grown-ups don't do that in the real world. Gee, you guys are actually starting to believe in your own stupid crap about criminal prosecution aren't you? You're starting to scare yourself with that shit. Is that how AIDStruth celebrates Halloween? LOL!
Elkie, remember if ever you want the real story, instead of just lying your anonymous ass in and out of ever more ridiculous situations, my prices are very reasonable and my services always reliable. I could save you a lot of precious free time (-;
"Do you know how old he is? No, you don't."
Also, answering your own question is just pretentious. Answering your own question and being wrong is pretentious and stupid.
Posted by: Shiritai | November 1, 2007 8:14 PM "
So you seem to know that this "kid" is old enough to rip you a new asshole. Are you still willing to remove him from his home? Can I venture a heartfelt: NO?
Braganza is correct, proper nutrition would go a long way in preventing any AIDS defining disease. If one would research history, one would learn the effects of improper nutrition and it toll on the human body. Look at undernourished POW's, scurvy to pellagra, check out the Cruiser Kroprinz Wilhelm or the building of the Maderia-Mamore where 4,000 men died from their diets. Eight of the top ten causes of deaths in the U.S (the other two are suicides and accidents)are directly related to one's diet so how can anyone say that proper nutrition would not prevent most diseases and illnesses?
Certainly, after the horse has gotten out of the barn, and people are sick, then it is no longer just a matter of prevention. One must play catch up by changing one's diet, taking supplements and by taking medicines when necessary. This is the problem with modern medicine, most do not concentrate on diet or prevention. By the time most sick persons reach the doctor, the doctor then has to concentrate on the problem at hand and prevention or good old-fashioned dietary habits are not even discussed. The patient is "patched-up" until the next health crisis comes along.
We are mainly a sick society with three quarters of the population being overweight, which is equating to more and more health issues and occurring at a younger age. This is a great burden on society and in time will break the medicare system as more and more baby boomers are reaching the retirement age. We need to start preventive programs in schools and at an early age. We now are beginning to see the effects of years and years of fast food and what it has done to society. As an industrial nation, our cancer and heart disease rates are off the charts. Yet, most wait for a "magic" pill to solve one's ills, when in fact, most of their problems could have been prevented by eating a proper diet and by incorporating other good, health habits.
Sir Elkie, re. your "yeah nutrition is important but please don't cut out the pharma corps. from their shareof the deal".
Your own desprate attempts at saving your pet theory, show that a lot - not all but a lot - of what you call "AIDS" could be prevented
via proper nutrition:
1. The immunesystem is tapped and drained in a near stalemate struggle with the virus over a period of 10+ years
2 Invocation of several co-factors each of which is capable of influencing the rate of progression by several years.
This means proper control of the co-factors that can be controlled, mainly nutrition, and judicious use of "alternative" and conventional medicines, would guaranteed decimate the need for your anti-viral nukes - even on your own terms..
Noreen has just done exactly that for 1 1/2 years.
At the LDN Conference, the physicians who had the success stories of curing terminal, cancer patients did so by eliminating all sugar from the patients' diets (sugar feeds the cancer), changed thier diets to eating more vegetables, gave them supplements and low doses of LDN. Occasionally, one doctor used chemo but he added insulin and much lower doses of chemo thus eliminating many of the side effects. These terminal patients are alive today due to these progressive doctors. The tape of this confernce should be available in December for those who might be interested. However, the doctor who spoke on her work on Chron's disease will not be on because she has not published her work formerly. Nevertheless, the other physicians and their case studies is quite impressive.
Well, if that isn't a scoop then I don't know what a scoop is. And, the second in a row. Some hours ago one of the HIV=Aids nerds admitted the toxicity of the life-saving killer-drugs (although they shouldn't be considered the most toxic compounds in the universe.... yeeeeaaahhh!!), and now a second nerd admits that nutrition is important. In one single thread, my friends, one single thread!
But, lost_in_the_elk_mountains_man, ... has again raised the issue of nutrition and AIDS. is NOT what my message was all about. Read it again, without eating your liver and without hastily trying to compose an answer while reading. Then you'll notice. Do did? Okay! Then what was my message all about? Yes!!! Right you are. My message was about the stupidity of pushing people into the You_have_Aids misery and dig 'em in deeper and deeper with the Take_This_Poison_Or_You'll_Die shit, although so many proved that the best thing to do is to ignore the diagnosis as well as the pills. Got it? Really? Then now has come the moment you can write some clever message. Looking forward to reading you.
"There is a neat inverse relationship between knowledge of the subject and believing the Perth Group."
It's not about believing. Herein lies orthodox failed thinking, because there's enough evidence they're mistaken. Then all one needs to find proven is that of the Perth Group's point substantiated with Rodriguez et al, finding only 6% correlation.
T4 and the clinical syndrome
The HIV/AIDS researchers consider T4 decrease as being the "hallmark" and "gold standard" of HIV infection and AIDS (Shaw et al., 1988; Levacher et al., 1992). In fact, in the most recent (1992) CDC AIDS definition, an AIDS case can be defined solely on serological, (positive HIV antibody test), and immunological (T4 cell count less than 200 X 106/L), evidence (CDC, 1992). The new definition also requires that "the lowest accurate, but not necessarily the most recent, CD4+ T- lymphocyte count should be used" to define an AIDS case (CDC, 1992). However, ample evidence exists that T4 cell decrease can be induced by many factors, some trivial, such as sun bathing and solarium exposure, a decrease which can persist for at least two weeks after exposure has ceased (Hersey et al., 1983; Walker & Lilleyman, 1983). T4 cell counts "can vary widely between labs or because of a person's age, the time of day a measurement is taken, and even whether the person smokes" (Cohen, 1992). That many factors can affect the T4 cell number is reflected by their large variation in HIV positive patients. In one such study, patient measurements repeated by one laboratory within 3-days showed a "minimum CD4+ cell count of 118 cells/mm3 and a maximum CD4+ cell count of 713 cells/mm3" (Malone et al., 1990). In the MACS, consisting of 4954 "homosexual/bisexual men", it was stressed that physicians and patients should be "aware that a measured CD4 cell count of 300X106/L really may mean it is likely that the "true" CD4 cell state is between 178 and 505X106/L. Thus there is no certainty this person's "true CD4" is less than 500X106/L or that it is greater than 200X106/L" (Hoover et al., 1992). It is important to note that these variations were obtained despite the fact that the CD4 measurements were undertaken in laboratories which "are carefully standardized in an ongoing quality control program".
Denialists or not, you cannot ignore their basic scientific research in lieu only one explanation that to this date still explains just weak correlation and circular reasoning focused around a single virus theory. Why else would there be dozes of failed attempts for vaccine after 25 years such as recent Merck's V520-023?
noreen,
I will certainly agree with much of what you said on the importance of nutrition. But I have to disagree with some of your points.
I did a search fro the top causes of death in the US and I found:
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html
My following criticism of your statement will be based off that so if you have a more up to date data or different data please let me know.
Even being forgiving I could not find 8 out of 10 top causes for death being directly correlated with diet. While I agree that nutrition is very important to living a healthy life style, I have to disagree that it is the primary cause of death in the USA. But, let's assume that 8 out of the top 10 killers in America are the result of poor diet or nutrition. There are far more than 10 things that kill people out there and many of them are the result of infectious diseases (don't heckle me jspreen!). There is only so much one can do with nutrition so we cannot focus on that completely.
Infectious diseases can bring a perfectly healthy individual to their funeral. Yes, for the most part the average healthy person handles them fine, but there are many many that kill regardless of age, race, or health. What were people dieing of before McDonalds exists? Polio, whooping cough, TB. These can fatally harm even the healthiest person.
This is not a black-and-white issue where it's either nutrition or disease, they are intertwined. Poor diet is not the cause of every heart attack, but it is certainly a co-conspirator in many. But that does not mean every person who is within the target BMI who exercises will be free from heart attacks or live until they are 140.
As you have mentioned OI's in several posts (such as falsely stating that ARVs attack them and not HIV) I believe I can assume you do not deny Germ Theory as the current best theory to explain infectious diseases. But do you believe that only those that have poor nutrition succumb to them? I hope not, as there is plenty of evidence to refute that.
This is really a misleading statement noreen. Every child that I'm aware of in the US grows up going through some sort of health course. My schooling had many lessons involving the importance of the food pyramid. The doctor of every overweight person I know tells them that they need to eat healthy and exercise. There are health reports all over the place. Every doctor interviewed when talking about weight loss says it plainly: eat right, exercise more. Talk to any overweight person and they will say they need to eat better and exercise. But do they? No. The message is out there, everyone knows it, but few follow it. The reasons for this? Again, it's not black and white. It is difficult to make sexy ads for eating healthy. The US government subsidizes more ingredients to make a Twinkie than healthy vegetables (I'm exaggerating for effect here). While people know eating McDonalds is not healthy they keep on going back regardless. Junk food is a staple of life, unfortunately, even with the efforts of the medical community to try to get healthy food out there.
So yes, the US is a fat country (see Shifting Baselines blog for just how much it has changed), but please don't blame the medical community alone, they try to inform the world, nobody cares.
Oh carter you forgot the reference again. Bad plagiarist carter.
Copypasta from Eleni PE et al Genetica 95 1995.
So yes, the US is a fat country (see Shifting Baselines blog for just how much it has changed), but please don't blame the medical community alone, they try to inform the world, nobody cares.
Of course, Apy, the medical community has done all it can and ever does do about anything: it has invented the Fat Virus.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_….
They have even come up with a proven way of fighting it, just as we thought AZT couldn't get pulled off the shelves and dusted off once more.
http://groups.msn.com/aidsmythexposed/general.msnw?action=get_message&m…
"btw have any of the denialist trolls on this site failed to work out that pat is Christine Maggiore, the HIV+ women who killed her own baby by neglecting to take ARVs then failing to provide the right healthcare for the baby as she died of AIDS, the woman who in any just society would have been locked up for manslaughter, the woman who now just wont let the poor kid rest in peace."
I like the sarcasm but demagogues who pander to idiots populate this blog so for the sake of transparency I will re-write: Actaully I am the Maggiore that has been accused of misinterpreting her negative diagnosis for financial gain. I am also the Maggiore who refused to give AZT to my child seeing we were both "obviously" hiv negative and I am also the Maggiore who has then been accused of murdering my child for believing what the TOP dogs of HIV have been saying all along; that I am "obviously" HIV negative. I am the Maggiore who has lost so much more than these characters ever will yet I am somehow "profiting" from all this. I am exhibit A of HIV/AIDS politics; damned if you do and double damned if you don't. HIV is a death sentence and he will make damn sure of it and if he can't convince you that HIV will kill you then he will set out to destroy your personal life. HIV is a self fulfilling profecy; believe in it and die or doubt it and get destroyed.
These are such a couple of cute phrases, I can't but copy and paste in a Word document, admire and write a comment.
Especially this: These can fatally harm even the healthiest person.
Now, one question immediately bubbles up in my brain: How healthy was a person before he/she was fatally harmed by TB (to just pick out one of the three harms mentioned)? Today's virus chasing modern science doctors have no idea and they may well think that a person can be in perfect health just before he/she was fatally harmed by say lung tuberculosis. But that's perfect nonsense. Lung TB doesn't just come out of nowhere to strike perfectly healthy people. Lung TB only strikes people with lung cancer. Lung TB is the healing phase of lung cancer, the attempt of coming back to normal, leaving some black spots when it's all over. Or, eventually, if the previous cancer phase were too intense or lasted too long, killing the patient during the epileptical crises, a fatal issue mainly due to irrecoverable brain damage in the brain stem.
This is what one can learn from Dr Ryke Geerd Hamer's New Medicine. An approach which, once fairly understood, enables the student to wipe the floor with any professor, doctor, scientist, or whatever in the medical field and who superbly ignores off the beaten path knowledge.
Pat, I didn't write that. (as far as I know the only fake posting in my name) It's not the least bit funny, which is a good sign that somebody from Elkie's and Moore's witless goon squad put it up. It also shows how scared the anonymous chickenshits are that they now have to "borrow" our monikers to deliver their cowardly garbage.
The reference for AZT and the new Adeno obesity virus was a little imprecise, so here:
http://groups.msn.com/aidsmythexposed/general.msnw?action=get_message&m…
Apy, I believe that the germ is given entirely too much credit. You see, it has been discussed before, it is when the terrain of the person is not up to par that the germs can get a foothold and do damage in the body. Every human has many germs and in one's mouth, yet many do not succumb to sicknesses because they eat right and therefore have a healthy PH. Germ only thrive in an unhealty environment. Check the PH of any cancer person and it will be found to be on the acidic side. As with AIDS, remove the cause and it will go away.
I also agree with the comment that if one does not accept AIDS as a death sentence and lives healthy, then one will be fine. What has HIV done but to be dormant in the lab and in humans. Why can't you folks who believe in HIV explain to all of us how it is doing anything?
Thanks for the clarification MEC. The political goons of HIV are definitly out for lunch. Maybe there is such a thing as an asshole virus too.
As a pre-emptive strike against gratuitous fabrications I should note, for the accidental reader of this thread, that:
I do not know of a Lochness "monster".
I did see planes fly into the Twin Towers.
The Holocaust DID happen, my family saw it and some even did it.
Creationism drives me nuts
If there are tea pots circling the moon then it is probably a practical joke by bored cosmonauts
The tooth fairy turned out to be my mother and so did Santa.
"My camp" does not extend beyond the boundaries of my property.
etc..
noreen,
Are you suggesting that all germs are created equal in terms of dangerousness? This is quite obviously not a valid conclusion. Some germs have negative effects on us, some don't. Even unhealthy person has bacteria in them that is not overwhelming them. Do you have any evidence of, for instance, bacteria in our gut becoming overwhelming and causing disease when a person has poor nutrition? On top of that, what are you considering poor nutrition? Almost everyone I see in my day to day life is not eating a generally good diet and is most likely deficient in many nutrients, but to what degree? Where do you draw the line between healthy and malnourished?
You refer to PH a lot. What do you mean here? PH of what exactly? Surely you are aware that the body is not the same PH all over. The blood has one level healthy level while the gut has a rather different healthy level? On top of that, what method are you claiming for measuring of PH? It is well known that the PH of urine is not reflective of the PH in the body at any point.
I did see planes fly into the Twin Towers.
No you didn't. You saw some very poor quality footage suggesting a plane flying into the Twin Towers. There's a big difference between the two statements.
I did see planes fly into the Twin Towers.
No you didn't. You saw some very poor quality footage suggesting a plane flying into the Twin Towers. There's a big difference between the two statements.
What? jspreen, there are many deadly compounds we ingest daily, however we only encounter very low doses, or there's other effects to take into account.
In short, LD50 data gives us an objective frame of reference for the "deadliness" of a particular compound. I'll say that again, objective frame of reference.
So, quit stalling and show the data please. LD50 counts for HIV treatment drugs should be easily available, that's unless you'd rather remain in fairy land concerning your claims.
And TB = healing phase of lung cancer? "What?" being one response, the other being; care to show how the currently accepted causation for TB, i.e. it's caused by a bacteria and why anti-biotics clear it up generally, is wrong?
germs = bacteria and they are everywhere, your skin, eyes, ears, throat and various other places. More importantly so, without the commensal germs in your intestines, absorption of nutrients is greatly reduced. And what do you mean by "unhealthy environment?" As unhealthy is generally a subjective term outside of scientific medicine.
Come on man, when will you people cut out to unconditionally defend your poison framework if people can do so well without? It's insane! Can't you see that, your behaviour being absolutely insane?
Germs don't really cause TB, they're part of the healing process. In the absence of germs the previous lung cancer is encapsulated, if that's the right word for it in English. As a matter of fact, since the symptoms of decay are not the same with or without the Koch bacilli, the germs may give the impression they're the primary cause of the disease, but since TB only affect cancer cells, we must consider the preceding lung cancer as the primary cause.
I postulate here that if Duesberg is correct that all cancer cells are aneuploid, then all lung cells affected during lung-TB are aneuploid. This shouldn't be difficult to check.
Oh yeah, almost forgot. Antibiotics. They don't really clear up the germs. They slow down the healing process and reduce brain oedema.
...
Evidence perhaps? Or is that asking to much of you?
By the way, the evidence that TB bacteria cause the symptoms of TB is completely solid, i.e. not only can we correlated the bacteria with the symptoms, but we can also use Koch's postulates and standard scientific means of enquiry to show that bacteria is the sole source of the symptoms.
Oh, and on the claim that the drugs don't work, etc etc etc, in my time spent reading this thread, I've yet to see any solid, verifiable scientific evidence which disproves the facts of HIV and the strong evidence that it produces AIDS.
Anyhow, it's fairly obvious the insanity cat call is rather ironic, considering one of the hallmarks of it is avoiding in-escapable evidence with make believe...
Noreen,
How can you be so sure it was the LDN that cured the cancer reported in the conference?
Maybe it was cured by the beneficial effect of removing sugar from the diet and the LDN was completely irrelevant.
How can you distinguish between these possibilities?
Shall I use a spoon or do you prefer the feeding bottle? Why don't you try to use some of your own brain cells, man. Here, just Google "Ryke Geerd Hamer" "New Medicine" and press ENTER. Or, if you don't want to know anything unless it's delivered pre-chewed and free of charge, stick to your LD50 framework pills. What do I care?
"I did see planes fly into the Twin Towers.
No you didn't. You saw some very poor quality footage suggesting a plane flying into the Twin Towers. There's a big difference between the two statements."
To make that correction you'd have to be sure a wasn't actually THERE, in NY, right?
Well you happened to have guessed right, I wasn't there; I did only see (not so) grainy footage of planes flying into buildings. I stand corrected.
Pat,
"Yet it is exactly what you did. You butt in making a comment without knowing what exactly is going on and that is what makes your contributions vapid...lifeless. You are right though about insulting people and loosing the audience. JP Moore lost me because he is such a massive asshole."
"So you seem to know that this "kid" is old enough to rip you a new asshole. Are you still willing to remove him from his home? Can I venture a heartfelt: NO?"
I think I see the problem now. You're too angry to think straight. Indeed, anger makes rational thought difficult, and plays havoc with memory and perception. I've struggled with this myself when I was younger, and I've found that regular exercise of the mind and body help with keeping an even temper. Also, since you seem to want to learn more about AIDS, I would recommend taking a general biology course at your local college. That foundation of knowledge should be very useful in your search, and personally, I found (and still find) the workings of life to be fascinating.
Also, I don't think 15 year-olds should be independent. I mean, it's not until around age 25 that the frontal lobe is mature.
Carter,
Are you actually trying to learn some statistics, or is that just another cut-and-paste job?
Should we review the survival statistics for different CD4 levels in HIV-infected people, or will that cause you to bury your head in the sand?
"Also, I don't think 15 year-olds should be independent. I mean, it's not until around age 25 that the frontal lobe is mature."
I agree with you here. But my question was how far would you (with your own hands)go to enforce treatment against his will? He is over 17 today and thank whatever above for clear-thinking lawmakers to keep mad scientist-blogguers at bay:
In March 2007, Abraham's Law was passed in the state of Virginia. Below tells about that law.
The measure specifies that a decision by parents or a legal guardian to refuse a particular medical treatment for a child with a life-threatening condition will not be deemed a refusal to provide necessary care if the decision is made jointly by the parents and the child, the child has reached the age of 14 and is sufficiently mature to have an informed opinion on the subject of his medical treatment, the parents and the child have considered alternative treatment options, and the parents and the child believe in good faith that the decision is in the child's best interest.
And another thing...Don't lecture me about manners by introducing yourself with: "put up (evidence) or shut up"
you can't have it all ways.
Seeing you are also an expert on temper and how it is counter-productive perhaps you can give JP Moore a lecture.
Franklin,
No, you don't have to review anything with me. But you can please tell the people here that the Sept 27 JAMA 2006 article by Rodriguez et al. shows clearly and essentially no correlation between CD4 cell count and viral load - indicating that unchecked virus replication is not killing the CD4 cells.
Franklin, my CD4's have been in the mid eighties for well over a year and this hasn't affected my health one ioda. Low CD4's might not affect other's health either if they weren't on the antiretrovirals.
Furthermore Frankie
Tell us also why researchers found that in HIV-infected subjects, viral load contributed only 9 percent to the variability in rate of progression to AIDS.
Matthew J. Dolan et al. Nature Immunology (Published online Sunday, October 21, 2007). DOI: 10.1038/ni1521 (2007).
noreen, you're answer had nothing to do with franklins question.
Carter, you very well that the misinterpretations of this study are not held by the authors or any one else that hasn't drunk the Denialist Koolaid.
The Denialists seem to be unifying by an inability to understand what conclusions can be drawn from a study and what conclusions cannot.
The out come showed that on average those people with a higher presenting viral load subsequently show a faster rate of CD4+ depletion than those with a lower presenting viral load.
The Denialists ignore this relationship because they can't explain it.
They also ignore that the study looked at a signal measurement of the presenting viral load and did not attempt to correlate CD4+ depletion with viral load measurements taken at further points in the study. Both viral load and CD4+ count tests have experimental uncerntainties.
The Rodriguez er al study looked solely at people infected with HIV. It didn't compare HIV+ and HIV- people. The study by Ascher et al did.
HIV infection predicts CD4+ cell depletion
The single factor that explains CD4+ depletion is HIV infection. On average people with higher viral load show faster CD4+ cell depletion.
The fact once you are infected that HIV viral load does not by itself explain all of the rate of CD4+ depletion is a surprise to no-one (except perhaps Denialists). Since very early HIV researchers have realised that direct cell killing is not the main way that HIV causes CD4+ cell depletion but that indirect mechanisms such as immune activation
If you had read the paper by Rodriguez et al and the papers it cites rather than just the Denialist commentaries you might be in a better position to judge the science.
47. Deeks SG, Kitchen CM, Liu L, et al. Immune activation set point during early HIV infection predicts subsequent CD4 T-cell changes independent of viral load. Blood. 2004;104:942-947.
48. Hazenberg MD, Otto SA, van Benthem BH, et al. Persistent immune activation in HIV-1 infection is associated with progression to AIDS. AIDS. 2003;17: 1881-1888.
The whole discourse on my daughter's death boils down to this: Three pediatricans, four EMTs, the entire staff of the ER at the hospital, two chest X rays and an autopsy found NO EVIDENCE of the fatal pneumonia that allegedy took her life and lung tissue slides prepared by the coroner's office show NO EVIDENCE of pneumonia.
How desperatly desperate must AIDS activists be to still be carrying on about the death of a three year old child as if she holds up the entire HIV paradigm?
Think desperate AIDS activists, think (if you are able) for just one moment:
One hack coroner with a long standing record of DA reprimands and admissions of mistakes and negligence, currently under investigation by the same Medical Board of California who dropped all charges against EJ's pediatrician and who recently accused two different couples of starving their children to death only to later admit he was wrong, says EJ died of pneumonia and you all agreed with his assessment without realizing what utter nonsense you were agreeing to, and now that you've gotten into bed with this coroner, rather than grabbing your undies off the floor and making a graceful exit, you keep making up new ways of "being right."
Suggestion: Stop now before you go down even further on a sinking, stinking ship with a fool for a captain and idiots for crew.
Five months after EJ's lung tissue slides were posted at the JusticeForEJ.com site, John Moore and followers still have yet to point to any evidence of pneumonia. When pressed to explain the absence of pneumonia and how EJ's lung tissue slides could possibly be used as negative controls for pneumonia in two separate legal cases if she had died of pneumonia, Moore's cohort, Nicholas Bennett (posting at another blog site under a fake) claimed the slides were fake--even though they carry a reference number from the LA County Coroner's office.
When I bring this point up, Bennett says I'm a fake. I'm not really Christine, just like those aren't really EJ's slides. This is the best argument from the champions of science at AIDS Truth, the people who "will stop at nothing" to end "denialism" and yet won't answer simple questions and run like crazy from any invitation to meet me in a public forum?
Now there's a real fake Christine going by Pat, another diversion to the already sophmoric attempts to avoid the real issue of the lack of evidence for any kind pneumonia--PCP, whatever, it's simply not there--in my daughter's lung tissue slides. How lame can grown ups act?
Notice that anytime I post I use my real name and email address. All my postings at http://www.AIDSmythExposed.com under my real name (see subjects Dr Fleiss and John Moore).
Unless someone wants to defend the notion that my daughter died of pneumonia in a public forum, you all ought to find another topic to spend your days arguing about. NB: As offered many times, I WILL PAY AIRFARE AND HOTEL to anyone with the cojones and the credentials to speak up on the topic of my daughter's supposed pneumonia.
And note well, despite our attorneys multiple requests, we still have NO LAB EVIDENCE of EJ's HIV status, despite what Bergmann and others imagine or wish or hope were true.
Can any of you all that go on about my daughter as if she had tested positive put up some form of evidence for these claims? Lacking that, it's all desperation.
Sick of it all,
Christine
Franklin said: "Should we review the survival statistics for different CD4 levels in HIV-infected people, or will that cause you to bury your head in the sand?"
Well yes of course we should Franklin, and be sure to point out EXACTLY which of these people were active drug abusers, and which were on AZT, and which were on whatever other drugs, and which were disowned by their parents for being gay, and which were suffering depression, and which were malnourished.
Unless and until you present ALL OF THE MITIGATING FACTORS THAT AFFECTED THESE PEOPLES HEALTH AND THEIR SURVIVAL, your take on CD4 and survival is completely meaningless.
Dear Christine Maggiore,
Thank you for your comment indicating that you are not "pat." I will take your word that you are the "real" Christine. Unfortunately, no one except Tara has any way of verifying who you are, or who "pat" is. Even Tara herself can access only the IP address of the computer you are using at the moment, and neither she nor any of her readers has the time or interest to verify that this IP address is yours, or pat's, or MEC's, or mine. Anybody can call herself "Christine Maggiore" in a comment. Just ask the person who recently usurped the name "Molecular Entry Claw," most likely someone you know well.
I understand your need to personalize the debate. You are angry and upset, and have been for quite some time, and not without reason. I wish that your daughter were still with you, and that we could discuss HIV and AIDS more amicably. With the pending lawsuit, though, you know as well as I that you will have your debate soon, in a courtroom.
This is a difficult time for you, and I hope you will find emotional and physical strength to sustain you through it. You have many friends who support you. And not all of your enemies wish you ill. I just hope that we all can have some respect and refrain from impersonations and mean-spirited accusations as this trial approaches.
Sir Elkie,
I have difficulty expressing how deeply touched I am by your show of compassion and sympathy. And to think you don't even know Christine Maggior well, or at all in fact. Maybe if you usedyour real name when addressing her this could be the beginning of a friendship. I seem to remember you wanted to know something about Al-Bayati and baby killers; maybe this is the time to get those concerns off your chest?
Quickly, jspreen, you've failed an impromptu sani-test, either you're purely a troll or you're never going to even bother actually checking up on whether this "new medicine" concept is actually right...
In short, you lack the ability to do critical thinking, at least on this subject.
OK, now I'm really confused..... Pat, who its been obvious for days now is Christine Maggiore writing under a pseudonym, is attacked by fellow AIDS denialist Claus Jensen, writing as Molecular Entry Claw (why and why?), then admits in a fit of temper that she (Pat) is indeed Christine Maggiore, but next Molecular Entry Claw (Jensen) denies it was him who attacked her/Pat/Christine Maggiore, and then Christine Maggiore (writing under her own name or, as ElkMountainMan suggests, perhaps someone else pretending to be Christine Maggiore) denies being Pat after all, and also denies admitting that she (Pat?) admitted to being Christine Maggiore (have I missed any link in the bizarre chain of events?).
But then, thinking about, what else should one expect from AIDS denialists? They've never been known for clarity of expression, telling the truth, integrity, logic, etc. So the above events are entirely within their standard modus operandi, and no doubt they either see some perverse logic to it all, or else it's another manifestation of the internecine splits within the ranks of denialism that occur now and then, to the amusement of the rest of us (e.g., Perth Group vs Duesberg).
I'm also still confused about cooler, who appears to occupy this site principally to boast about his alleged sexual conquests, which presumably explains why his typing appears to be carried out using only one hand. But is cooler really a sophisticated plant, a parody of an AIDS denialist, created by AIDS professionals to make the world of denialism look worse than it already is, as has been suggested earlier on this string? It's an interesting theory. But to invent cooler would be overkill, as Jan Spreen is the living embodiment of the AIDS denialist parody, the arch conspiracy theorist and nihilist who already serves as AIDS science's best exemplar of the madness of AIDS denialism (at least since Harvey Bialy wandered off the scene to die of his kidney cancer). So, with Spreen already posting on this Blog, would anyone actually NEED to invent cooler? I doubt it, so cooler probably is real; sad, lonely, foolish, mono-dimensional, Dr.Lo-obsessed but real.
And who the heck is BuffaloValleyWoman?
Ah well, it's all too puzzling, and rather a waste of time, so I don't think I'll bother looking at this thread again. But do take a look at AIDS Truth's next posting, on how the denialists use fake identities and commit cybercrimes, to get some insights into just who some of these various people truly are, and how they operate on the internet.
John Moore (aka Moore, John; John P. Moore)
Christine,
JP Moore, Jeanne Bergman, and all of the HIV Inc monkeys not only enjoyed singing and dancing on the graves of the dead, but now these HIVmonkeys have to keep singing or face the public as the little imps that they are.
To keep their jobs and positions, they have had to sing and dance on the graves of children such as EJ and the ICC orphans, as well as on all of the hundreds of thousands of others who were scared sick and poisoned to an early death by AIDS Inc drugs, fear, stress, and depression.
It is the jingle jangle of money in their cups and it is job security but only so long as they the charade going by yet more singing and twirling and dancing on these graves, and just so long as they are able to keep averting the eyes of the public from the dissident messages and truths.
If they stop singing and dancing even for a moment, the public's attention will be soon off of their mesmerizing song of fear and dance of death, and will be directly on the stark realities of what the dissidents have been saying for 20 years.
Then of course would come the job losses, the lost funding, song and dance careers gone, having to walk the walk of public shame and humiliation, not to mention facing public anger and backlash, legal prosecutions, etc, etc, etc......
So kick back Christine, and enjoy the show while it lasts, and have a good laugh at the monkeys.
They don't dare stop the song and dance, those HIV monkeys. Whatever they do, they better not stop. Cause they know what will be in store for them when they do!
------------------------------------------------------
Thats the honest reality of all this, now isn't it, you little HIV-imps.
You better dance and sing harder and louder then you ever have, little HIV monkeys. And you better not stop dancing and singing, cause just as soon as you do, you know what you are soon in for. The rethinkers truths will be shouted even louder from the highest mountaintops and will soon enough bite you all right in the ass if you stop your song and dance! And you better hope the public does not tire of watching and hearing your same old song and dance.
Soooooo.....Dance harder on those graves Jeanne Bergmonkey, and sing louder JP Mooremonkey and same to all of you other little HIV monkeys! You all better keep the "HIV,Virus That Causes AIDS Band and Choir" going strong. You better keep us rethinkers and dissidents well entertained and laughing at you,
or you yourselves will soon be facing the music.
Good work John!
Instead of taking up the offer to come to Los Angeles for free and actually defend you notion EJ Scovill died of pneumonia or HIV infection, you in your classic hyperbolic style go round about nothing, something about pseudonyms and denialists.
Come on now, I'll even pick you up at the airport so we can go slam down a couple of Guinness together. Then you can try and convince me in person HIV causes AIDS.
Dear John,
No wonder you're confused - all this thought activity and no cure as it were. I believe this would be the opportune moment to extend to you personally the offer I've already extended to your parallel ego, ElkMountainMan, and your Anima, BuffaloValleyWoman: If you want the truth about all these things that keep you awake at night, restlessly stalking the internet for any prey small enough, fire your entire AIDStruth goon squad from Richard Jefferys to Ken Witver and hire me as your intel officer. I am, as you know, very reasonable with my prices.
Have you given further consideration to the idea of letting me edit your site for you? The contents are, how should I put it... of varying quality. I believe I could help you choose the right material, even help you write. I guarantee old chap, we'll have your readership up in the double digits in no time.
***** !!! Plagiarist !!! *****
I am quite obviously not Maggiore. I have always posted under "pat" but for the real curious...Patrick Moore. That this confuses the internet hacker JPMoore should really confuse no one. He doesnt know himself what he once said or may not have said
JP, when I write that I am the "maggiore", I am speaking poetically but what I am really writing is that I am Pat and I am furious with your inhuman antics and I think you need to be removed from your job.
Pat,
I know how you feel. I once got a speeding ticket for doing 65 in 35. That cop should be fired!
Of course I need not point out that it is JP Moore that is speeding; he's the one at the wheel.
ooops, now I posted under "apt"...(cue jokes and laughtrack)
Don't get upset, pat, and always keep in mind that the reason why a discussion like this thread exists is not to make the J. Pee Moores of the world change their mind, because that is impossible, but to clearly show the future generations what can become if you let fact sheet groupies and overwhelming evidence hillbillies rule the world.
Which reminds me of the other herd nerd who asks me for evidence and then, because I can't give evidence of anything by merely writing some message on my computer, and also because in the end there is no objective evidence for anything, decides I failed his impromptu sani-test, whatever that may be. I figure I can but hide away in shame, sit down and weep over such a cruel failure and bitter deception.
Hey, now I'm at it, why not write down another argument pleading for my cause and do some more floor-cleaning with the ignoble members of Moore's "Scientific Community" and followers. Let's hop back to TB once more. As said, TB is the healing phase of lung cancer. Now, if I tell you that lung cancer is caused by a DHS we can best describe as a terribly traumatic moment of "Fear of death", we can easily understand why every patient who was diagnosed with some fatal disease by some ignorant doctor ends up with severe breathing problems.
Perhaps Pat, MEC and their friends should consult this website
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I+am+spartacus
I am Spartacus
Refers to a scene in the movie "Spartacus" starring Kirk Douglas as Spartacus. After the army of former Roman slaves led by Spartacus is defeated in battle by legions of the Roman army, a Roman general stands before the captured surviving members of the slave army and demands that they turn over Spartacus, or else all of the former slaves will be executed. Upon hearing this and not wanting his friends to be executed, Spartacus stands up and says "I am Spartacus." However, the loyalty of his friends is so great that each of them stands forward in succession, shouting "I am Spartacus!" until the shouts dissolve into a cacophony of thousands of former slaves each insisting "I am Spartacus!" Bewildered and still not knowing which of them is Spartacus, but impressed by the loyalty he inspires in his army, the Roman general has all of the slaves crucified in a miles-long display alongside the Appian Way leading back to Rome.
Thus the phrase "I am Spartacus!" is often used to humorously start a chorus of responses of "No, I am Spartacus" among a group.
Person enters chat room and types "I am Spartacus."
100 other people in the chat room then respond with "No, I am Spartacus!", "I am Spartacus!", etc.
Pat,
there's that flawless logic your known for.
Dr. Moore would be more like head of research and development at Yoyota.
It's appropriate though, that in that capacity you would blame him for your reckless driving of a riding lawn mower.
Scienceblogs really needs a feature in which you can search a commenters previous comments. This one from Jspreen is worthy of archiving:
"As said, TB is the healing phase of lung cancer."
If there is anyone, anywhere, ever who was willing to consider jspreen's delusions about HIV, they really should get a glimpse of his insanity.
No jspreen, I dont care to discuss your theories of cancer. You are mentally ill, and there is nothing I can do to help.
Moore, dont be so insecure because you cant get laid. Whats wrong with being obsessed with a doctor who's saved my sisters life? I'm sorry that youre jealous of scientists like the Nicolsons and Lo, they induced disease in every animal injected with mycoplasma pentetrans/incognitus(Lo and the AFIP) Hiv, hpv do zilch in animals, koch is rolling over his grave because of you and your idiotic virus hunter friends who have nothing, some 1 in 1000 cell no animal model 40 year window period microbes like HPV.
Youve already lost all respect in the scientific community, and whats even worse is that the odds of you getting laid by a hot girl are 1/1000000000000000000000. You should go for adele, I think shes your only hope.
This fool psychoanaylizes anyone and deems them crazy and stupid if they beleive the Denialists. Then why is he so concerned about them, if they are people he feels are so potetially deranged that they might beleive the denilaists, why is he trying to "protect" people that he thinks are potentially nuts/stupid for potentially beleiving Duesberg?
The guy is nuts, keep making a fool of yourself.
But Roy, no one looks to me for answers. Only an idiot would demand AIDS leadership from me. You are right now laughing at how truthful I suddenly sound but that is because so far it has always been flying above your head. JPMoore is the one entrusted with HIV research and educational leadership concerning the fight against AIDS. He's got the wheel and his driving is reckless and counter productive. When there are so many decent and more inteligent and eloquent characters out there that could deliver a far more effective education campaign without walking on the graves of dead and dying people, It is mind-boggling that a creature like JP Moore could get the key's to it all.
And Roy Hinkley, Right On Cue, stated an obviously subconcious higher truth:
"Dr. Moore would be more like head of research and development at Yoyota".
I absolutely agree! JP, and his cohorts are highly experienced in the research and development of YoYo theories, such as HIV being the cause of AIDS. Like a YoYo, no matter how hard JP throws his HIV theory out into the world, it keeps coming right back to knock him in the noggin!
I found this online somewhere...
"This thread is a Long Term Non-Progressor."
Oh my God, pat, you found a point we can all agree on.
Dr. Moore, I'm no denialist, but I have to say, you're as bad as I am - at least three times you've said you'll leave this thread, then you show up again. "Denialism they don't remember thread, I can't quit you!"
Aetiology's comments bar has been drowned out by this thread for three weeks now. What is the matter with all of us? Why, when we know full well nobody is convincing anyone and any parties who are undecided have thrown in the towel and gone home, are we still yelling at each other about HIV?
Dear ElkManMountain/ (and others who may want to comment the nutrition studies, as I am grateful for any comment)
You wrote
(..) Braganza recently submitted several examples of authors who claim that nutrition supplements are effective treatments for AIDS. Indeed, the role of nutrition (in general, and for various nutrients in particular) in HIV infection and AIDS has always been an important area of research.
Unfortunately, the results Braganza provided were published on an internet website or not published in reputable journals. As adele and trrll noted earlier, these results are difficult or impossible to evaluate well because they are written poorly and important details and analyses are left out.(...)
Could you be more concrete and tell me which critical details are missing ? I am interested in the Mbengo hospital trial, published in the journal of orthomolecular medicine (http://www.hdfoster.com/), and in JKaiser book.
I wrote to the authors of the Mengo Hospital study (http://www.hdfoster.com/) to ask them why they did not publish in a PUBMED abstracted journal and apparently they could not find a publisher for this particular piece of research....
As I assume that they still may work on the problem, planning more trials, I have been thinking to send them your comments to help them improve their future work.
I should point that my interpretation of the study is that there is no clear cut proof that the theoretical approach from the main author, as described in his book, is correct, but I think that it is amazing that 50% of the HIV+ sick people could increase their CD4 count, and further 25% could maintain it constant.
Previously when I spoke about SubSaharian Africa, I was not thinking in South Africa but in poorer countries, like Swaziland and Malawi. These in terms of devellopment would be at the same distance that Honduras is from the USA. Both are in the same continent but the amount of health investment per capita is very different.
I believe that even in SubSaharian Africa (with very high HIV prevalence) such schemes could help to reduce the amount of HIV+ people in real need of going to hospital for further treatment. The formula used in the Mbengo hospital (see Foster paper in link provided) looks to cost less than a hand of peanuts.
Not that I care but to prove JP Moore's petty bullshit
"Pat,
there's that flawless logic your known for."
"You're known for" or "you are known for"