To George W. Bush: We Shall Overcome

Thanks for this timely reminder, Reveres.

Cheers,
Crof

The White House is clearly occupied by an utterly delusional, irrational, messianic, fucked-up shitbag of monumental, almost unprecedented proportions.

We're clearly dealing with an unmitigated lunatic, here.

revere: try some classical, it calms the nerves.

Lea: Depends what you listen to. I happen to be a big Shostakovitch fan, with some Schoenberg and Berg thrown in, modulated by Varese.

Thanks revere. This made my day.

Having been a college student in Chicago during the early '60s and a resident of the Lincoln Park area during the Democratic National Convention riots in '68 this had me in tears! To think we have to fight the battle for a second time is almost more than one can bear. But as Arlo says in his concerts -- "The Dream is still alive!"

I am 50-50 on this one Revere. There is alot thats about to happen. First is that the Eisenhower Battle Group is now on station in the Persian Gulf. Second is that the Stennis Battle Group is going to be in the next 72 hours. Figure that we are looking at the dark of the moon for an attack you will see a likely see it in about a week to ten days. Next on is about the 19th or so of February. Will have to check that. But the military surge may be a prelude to an invasion of Iran via air as well. This in my opinion is going to be a beheading of the chicken. They will take Bushehr off the map along with some key sites that provide equipment to the Iranian nuke effort.

Revere asserts that this is bluster and that we are not going to attack Iran. I would bet just the opposite. They have been amply warned and the only way to leave Iraq is to do Iran and bring down their government. Send them back to the stone age. No cutting and running, its going to be cut them down and send them running.

Most of us are not old enough to remember but its very significant that the EISENHOWER is on station as it was he who sent the troops in during the 1950's to stop the imposition of a Marxist government under Gotzbadeh. We are doing the same thing again. I would also state that certain aircraft have been leaving the US for days now, capable of very low level strikes against Hawk missile batteries and packing Tacit Rainbow and Harm missile technologies aboard. Finally with the two carrier battle groups the most interesting things out there are the Aegis class guided missile frigates and the SSN's attached to them. It wont go nuclear but it will be tactical with cruise missile strikes. No way to defend against it.

Singing a lot of songs may have helped in Vietnam Revere. I would have gone anyway because it was a duty to answer the call at the time. This time around singing isnt going to cover it. We are about to engage in what will be the second great battle of WWIV and it will be so very quickly evident when things start lighting up.

But if we are wrong and we dont stop the incursions by the Iranians and iIf we fail to stop the Iranians then we will leave Iraq. The Middle East will go up in flames within five years of that.

Its going to be an interesting springtime.

On things for sure this time around... no politically correct handcuffs are going to be on the military. Unrestricted attacks

Randy: If they do attack Iran, it will be (another) catastrophe. I am betting (hoping?) they will figure that out before they do it. The illegal overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran is the source of all our troubles now. We installed a despot (the Shah) and the backlash is our reward. Thanks, Ike and Allen Dulles. In case you haven't noticed, the Middle East (at least the portion we inhabit) is already in flames. Thanks, George.

Thank you for posting that, it was very moving.

From the sublime to the lowbrow... What's been running around in my head since last night is this song at filmstripinternational.

WARNING: The song is not remotely safe for work, and the slideshow that goes with it will enrage you if you like Bush.

Well, that and another song by Jim's Big Ego: WTFMFWTFAYT? (also full of profanity and NSFW):

I don't think we should be changing horses in midstream
even if the horse is on fire and stream is made of gasoline
I feel the country's much safer with him
now that we're finally alone in the world - we can win

They used to have that song for free on their site, but now it's for sale instead, so I won't post the mp3.

MRK: Leaning more towards your idea of an Iran conflict. There is heightened activity going on with Special Forces.

MAinVA: Maybe we saw each other. I was in your neighborhood on those warm August nights. As well as Grant Park and in front of the Hilton as part of a medical team (I was already a doc by then) and spent five terrified days and nights being gassed, pulling people from clouds of CS (unfortunately I had no mask and for many years have had a chronic cough) and being covered with blood (scalps lacerated by clubs bleed like stink). I felt at the end of that time filled up and overwhelmed by the violence. I know of no other way to describe it. It is a feeling that has never left me.

Thats a feeling that I felt Revere when I saw the cops beating the Hell out of students for protesting. No one could ever identify the students that set fire to the ROTC building at Kent State, or who passed out live ammo either. Dems and Rep big dogs probably on both sides. Lyndon sure owned a lot of Hughes Corp stock when they were building helicopters for Vietnam. Or hey how bout all of those construction companies that were owned by Lady Bird when they were passing out bids for rebuilding the roads and bridges in Vietnam.

Gotzbadegh was first and he just went silently into the night. Did we do him or someone else I dont know but yeah Mossadegh came later. We were right on their asses as early as the late 1930's and W. Churchill suggested that we invade them before they had a chance to get a foothold with Stalin. It really goes back to the days of the Ottoman Empire. Everyone from about Istanbul on was a serf of Attaturk. Kuwait was a lowland marsh that was carved up by two English Generals and Lawrence of Arabia. No one wanted it until they found oil. So many leaders to kill and turn to the dark side Obi-Wan.

My biggest hope for the planet is that this doesnt kick off. Anyone who has been in the bush with someone hunting for their quota of other than deer understands this. Many of us do not want to hit Iran but its necessary. Regardless of where you are on Iraq, Iran has the option. Quit the insurgency and quit funding the Shia's in Baghdad. Then stop the nuke program. Its like I said Revere, you guys are medical types and I defer to you on most of it. On the other hand I called this five months ago as a military guy. The ball is in play, it may hits some bumpers on the way down to the hole but its up to the Iranians now to decide whether they live or die. Its either us conventionally or the Israelis with nukes. Its now as simple as that. Pelosi and Reid be damned because now their goat is in the mill for the 08 elections. They can gnash teeth, threaten but they dont hold a big enough majority to ensure that they could stop funding the war. Nor do they have anything other than the opposition button. No matter what GWB does they hit the opposition button.

Rummy should have called me a long time ago and I would have said just go in and start a war with Iran as a terrorist state. NO ONE would have argued about that. Iraq well it was only strategic but its amazing that since we hit it, that no attacks have occured on US soil since. They have the fear of God in them but they dont fear us. It will take three weeks for us to put 23,000 in country and thats a whole lotta whupass they are about to unleash. So unless they just want to start limiting down what the Iranians can do by hitting targets with air strikes in Iran, its going to be put off until February or March. Ball is in their court, lets see if just sabre rattling will get their attention. If not using them will.

Reveres...

Thanks for the moving piece. Because you folks like music so much, you should check out our our protest podcast. Many of the same sentiments are included. (The link will take you to the setlist and you can stream or download from there if you like.)

Rockwell: Many, many thanks. Bookmarked! Recommended to everyone.

"it was a duty to answer the call"

Surely there was, and is, a greater duty to think first.

Oh Greg: Leaving the concrete for a moment and embracing the abstract; what if America was invaded? Will you then want the military and those that answered the call to maybe, just maybe take care of the situation?
Without going into great detail and dwelling only on the positive, the military has been an asset in our lives. Respect, honor, discipline, love of country, accountability, just to name a few.
If you have not experienced the military you cannot possibly understand, your information and assumptions are second-hand knowledge at best.

Lea: Your question isn't very historically pertinent. America does the invading. It doesn't get invaded. Who is going to invade us? Canada? Mexico? It would be as difficult for an invader here as it is for us to invade Russia. Ask Napoleon or Hitler about that.

Mexico is doing a great job of invading us now Revere. 13 million and counting. Put a single shot pistol in each of their hands and they can decide what state they want to take.

Respect, honor, discipline, love of country, accountability, and reason can be learned in a monastery or a kindergarden.

Nobody will be stupid enough to invade this continent until they think they enjoy the kind of gross technological superiority that US thinks it has over Iraq. In that unlikely event, we will see Shock and Awe over Manhatten, and the military will be snuffed. The survivors, each individual one of us, excepting a few Quislings, will be given multiple opportunities to choose, whether to drop his or her pants and bend over once more, or to be fitted for a belt of explosives.

It is no longer possible to get away with slaughtering everyone you can lay a sword on then crucifying every tenth survivor.

Hey Greg. Everyone in Iraq is there because they answered that call. If you want you can call Charlie Rangel and get the draft reinstituted. If you are 16 to 65 then you might not get the option with the Democrats in office.

As for shock and awe, its more likely just plain awe as in awe shit we got hit again when the mushroom cloud rises over Manhattan Island. They arent stupid Greg, just motivated to take us out. They take New York and it would take 25 years for us to recover and I can assure you that every major middle eastern city would be hit with nukes within 45 minutes after that. Its like I said, fear is a great deterrent. The unthinkable is about to become thinkable, and more likely doable. The Dems havent got anything but lets go negotiate with terrorists...saw where that has gotten us. You also need to make 3000 or so phone calls and let everyone who lost someone in the WTC's that you have "a plan".

Me, I am sharpening my swords and loading up. You could be right, but I dont think so. Dont forget to buckle up too.

Randy: Well then I guess we have nothing to worry about. Maybe that's how we should invade other countries, too. Emigrate to them. It looks like our soldiers will be in Iraq for a lifetime anyway (unfortuantely for too many it has been a lifetime). I guess they are illegal immigrants, though.

No one wants war, please know that.

Quisling: The term "quisling" has become a synonym in some European languages, including English, German, Italian, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, Dutch, Greek, Hungarian, Croatian and Serbian, for traitor, particularly one who collaborates with invaders.

I did not say anyone wants war, Lea. (Although, Kruger talks big.)

I said your scenario, invasion, is unlikely and could occur only in circumstances where the military which you count on would be eliminated. It is you, Lea, and I, who would have to take care of the situation.

However, I repeat, it is unlikely.

I also repeat, those positive attributes which you assigned to the military can be acquired elsewhere, more cheaply, and more functional.

Greg, its 2007 and if you think that the world is going to beat it into plowshares you are nuts. if you think this country cant be invaded, count up how much shoreline there is. If you think that we cant get hit by a nuke, move to New York City down near the Battery area. If you think that there are two carrier groups in the Straits of Hormuz for exercises you must think its for swimming lessons. Fact is that there is enough firepower there to level Iran without even so much as three week conventional bombardment via air and naval. Diego Garcia is just a two hour jaunt by F117 or B2, B1.

So do they attack Iran? Its up to Iran. They can stop this deal now or they can pay the price. The ROE's have changed and they are going to do an Israeli job on them if they dont. Who cares what the UN thinks? I certainly dont and its fairly apparent that they are not a governing body, its a political forum. So we get to hear a lot of blah-blah. There wouldnt be a UN without a USA. Think not? Let them move out.

By the way and for the record I repeat myself, I dont want this to start because its going to be another one of those bleeding heart things that we killed so many innocent people. So they do have a choice now dont they. If the big bully USA comes knocking on your door and asks you to stop, Iraq asks you to stop and you dont then its one of two things, stupid or a secondary plan.

They will kill the head of this chicken Greg and there wont be shit they can do about it. They'll get a few of ours but not many. And when they do, we will leave Iraq to the Iraqi's. Then we can clean the guns, cap up the bores and get ready for the next thing that we do in the national interest. Just wait two years, you are on the down hill run on this now for this particular president.

I don't think music or other art is a suitable way to make a point.
Just because some song is successful doesn't say anything
about the lyrics in it. Patriotism in wars was traditionally motivated by songs.
Of course, the enemy also had songs, so that can't mean songs are good
in general. And enemy songs are evil, depends on which side you stand.
I only know Joan Baez because she's the niece of the famous John Baez
with the internet column "these weeks finds in mathematical physics",
well into lattice theory and such.
I mean: Let science speak, not emotion. Trying to motivate your disciples
with songs is unscientific and doesn't support your goal.
When your arguments are good, then you need no music.

Randy: No one is going to invade the US with troops. That is nutso and I think you know it. If you don't, then you don't read military history and have learned nothing from the US's inability to conquer others in the lat 50 years. But I'll say again, we are the ones who do the invading. Regarding getting nuked, it has nothing to do with our military force (except insofar as are use of it has made it more likely to happen) or Iran's non-capability. There are enough loose nukes around from the days when the Soviet and we were turning them out like donuts to make that a possibility.

Well Revere, you forget the Brits burned Washington DC once, and they almost took New Orleans. And you also forget Blackjack Pershing chasing almost 1000 Mexicans back into Mexcio. There have been other times that we have landed other than desireables on our shores. In addition, my fear is a disassembled weapon being rebuilt in NYC, or with a little help from their friends that Iran puts a tip on one of their candles and lights it.

I also submit to you that like France, we are in the middle of a full blown invasion from Mexico. They may not have weapons in their hands, but they do have a uterus with them in most cases. What is a war? Setting aside political and military goals one saps the strength of the other, they work from within with those opposed to the war. They create upheaval by creating economic instability and we have seen that the last few years with oil going thru the roof.

As for loose nukes you are dead on skippy about that one. There about 30 or so that the Ruskies cant account for even to this day. They called it a bookeeping error. I call it weapons transfer. Troops could easily land here if somehow we get or got to the point that we were not able to mount a defense. Sorry that was discussed as early as five years ago that if a country such as Norko launched a moderately large attack on the US with say 10, 35meg weapons on Hawaii, the West Coast and got all the way to say St. Louis. Resultan radiation would pretty much do the rest. There would be a response but very shortly aferwards we would cease to exist as a nation and we would be invaded just as soon as it was safe to do it. Thats the reason I get so pissed at the French, they sell to everyone illegally and then because there are no records it gives them deniability. All things are possible in todays world.

IMO I think the French are collaborating with the Russians to achieve just that goal. Someone else hits us, then they move in.

Clarification to invasion above. The Mexicans are invading us via an open border. The French are being invaded by Muslims from all parts of the Middle East and N. Africa.

Randy: LOL. That's the best you can do? The war of 1812 and the Mexican War? You made my point for me, which is essentially Napolean, Hitler, and Rumsfeld. Regarding mixing this up with immigration, that's not very germane. This isn't a military invasion. It's like saying we were invaded by your ancestors in the 1860s or mine around 1900. I think we are better off for both of those invasions and we will be better off for this one, too.

Takes me back to candlelight vigils at the University in Switzerland so very long ago.Is the world any different? Just another set of enemies another mess that seems almost unresolvable. Yet so much has improved ,at least in civil rights ,here in this country. Was listening to a radio station of men refering to each other as Brothers.(It shouldn't be only the African-American community calling each other brothers and sisters, we all are brothers and sisters) One man called to complain that there were no true leaders. The talk shows guest commented,that Martin Luther King was 26 when he began to talk out against injustice,including the Viet Nam War. The talk shows guest said, some of the civil rights movement people that spearheaded the movement were only 18, 19....He suggested instead of depending on older leaders, to go out, and if you have it in you, become one yourself.I was meeting someone for lunch so I didn't catch all the program, but that simple statement resonates, and made an impact on me.

Still proved my point though Revere. We could see NYC lit up in a Kodak moment. I still stick with what I have said previously. I would KILL them ALL to prevent that. Seems that the latest history is proving you wrong too. Come on Revere, lets just negotiate and play lets make a deal. Until they dont like the deal and want even more. More land, more anything. Do what we want or we will terrorize you. Do what we want or we will nuke you.

It certainly is germane re: reference to immigration or you didnt watch the riots in France last year that disrupted just about everthing. Civil war in fact. Once you get that kind of separation in a country it doesnt go away. People here dont get the fact that if we went to a major conflict level it would take 18 months to spool up for it. Takes too long.

So IMO we go in take the Iranians out, drop as much of the ability to make a war and then come back in a generation or so and do it again when they are all built back up. Same in Iraq. If the Al Mahdi doesnt disarm, destroy the city in which they live. Screw the UN because they are nothing more than a resolution making body. Incredibily stupid in fact. They are so good at resolving conflicts of any and all kinds now arent they.

I see a day soon that we do have to go to war with Mexico to stop the influx of illegals. 10 years Revere would mean 150 million Mexican illegals at that and you could kiss all of the grants and everything else goodbye.because some bleeding heart liberal says we should take care of them better than we take care of our own. Then add in the fact that if we dont stop the Norks, the Iranians and a few others they will have the bomb and a delivery system. We take them now it doesnt happen.

Wonder how some people on the West Coast are gong to feel if they know that Iran, Pakistan, India, China, Russian, North Korea could and can hit them? We will undboutedly do something about that. But these frills cost money and we wont have any because somone said we have to take care of senior citizens. I for one see a total collapse of the system by 2012. No money for anything other than lib programs.

By the way, invasion of the US is taught at the War College as a real possibilty post of a nuke strike. We are only 8-10 hours away from an invasion is the way its taught. All that technocrap wont work afterwards and it wouldnt be done lightly either. China bought an aircraft carrier from Russia recently. With that they have global reach. So we can all sit back and just let things happen and then blame yet someone else for all of the ills of the world. Doing Iraq is a good idea. Doing iran is going to be even better. You will of course disagree, but thats the aisle isnt it.

Bird flu also might just cause such an event. Not much you can do if the guy attacking you has better gear to protect themselves and you are on your back dying.

Randy: Most people I know who have commented on this, including those on the far right like Pat Buchanan, think that an attack on Iran would be lunacy for what it would do to the region, our oil supply and whatever we have left of our "position in the world." I am still amazed yu don't see after Vietnam, Iraq and everything else that projecting US military power in that fashion only makes us weaker. This country is over the top of the hill and miitary adventures like Vietnam and Iraq have sped it along its way. You keep talking about other people attacking us, but in fact with few exceptions (and 9/11 was an exception) it is we who do most of the attacking. For all of our power, we are powerless to prevent those things. We don't want to negotiate with Iran. We want them to do whatever we tell them to do. The fact that they won't speaks volumes about our alleged power.

Like I said, they dont fear us. They know they can tag us anytime they want once they get a nuke. P. Buchanan is a speech writer, sounds good but it wont change anything. This is about to go into high gear and since he is going to run again, anything he says just like Hillary, Lurch, Edwards etc. is going to mean nothing until this is done.

Will we attack? Unless they see those nuke facilities starting to be torn down they are going to hit them. Its as simple as that. Regime change? I dont know. It wouldnt be a bad idea. I wouldnt say we were over the hill on it. Far from it. We are about to embark on a whole new phase of it. Fact is, there may not be a hill left after we get done.

As far as attacking us, I have seen in the last couple of years the change in America and it moved closer to the center with a few centrist Democrats. The polls are now against the war. So another poll showed that most Americans want us to just flat win it and get out. Dont think I dont hear what you are saying. We are under attack, its a silent kind thats creeping around trying to find ways to get to us like blowing up airliners mid-Atlantic last year. So what do we do? Kill everyone in the countries they came from? Certainly not. But if their governments are funding it, then take their governments out.

So you seem to think that all we should do is just leave Iraq I guess. What is your big answer to terrorists around the world? Mine is to bomb them and their familes and their families family off the face of the planet. It was a multi-national force that attacked us. Saudis, Egyptians, Yemeni. So what do you suggest Revere when its Iran thats funding it?

By the way I was meaning to ask you and take no insult from it. Are you a Lib, a Dem, a Socialist, a Communist or a Marxistt or something else?

Randy: We should get out of Iraq ASAP. One month should do it for the logistics. I am a democratic libertarian socialist of the Chomsky stripe.

1812. Good point. The Limeys were able to stand off and fire-bomb Washington, but every time they put boots on the ground they were driven off by citizen volunteers, insurgents. And when the Yanks tried to invade Canada.. guess what? They were driven off by citizen volunteers, insurgents.

Kruger, why don't you tell us about something more recent.. like the great job you did protecting the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, five and a half years ago.

Go harrass some unarmed women and children. But be sure to keep your ass covered.. the word is out. Most of them babes got a poisoned bodkin, hoping to stick it to you.

If ever some idiot with guns invades our home, you will be rotting in a ditch (I hope) or else standing guard on some monument for the Quislings. It will be too many thousands of people like me.. and Lea too, I bet.. who will take care of them.

No Greg, I am just going to give them your address so that they dont go for you first. They know an ally when they see one. Say Hi to Osama for me, give Zawahiri a really big good smackeroo. I doubt seriously that I will be doing anything like that because if we get EHP bird flu, or a nuke strike then it wont matter. Some poor slob will still be out their defending your right to say and do what you do.

Have a nice day!

Enough.
MRK, they'll never understand, nor do they care to.

Clarification and apology : "you will be rotting in a ditch (I hope)" means that, misguided and ineffective though it would be, I do expect you would resist and not fall in with the Quislings.

The wording above expresses far more personal animosity than the heat of debate warrants. When I chose the word "hope" I had been thinking of the dishonour of choosing, or being deceived by, traitors.

I expect we will dispute again. Please do not ever imagine that I think you are dishonourable.

My position remains, nobody will ever invade this continent unless they can roll over the military, and they are stupid enough to think the people will submit. If you are military, you will be honourably dead. If you are civilian, you will be atoning for the of validation the invader's misjudgement.