To my students: a question for the neurobiology exam

I know what this post is really for. It's to make the rest of us jealous of these kids.

And miss my university access to journals.

Only one question? You're too easy...

I second what Karen said.

No, there are 5 questions. I only put this one here because it's the only one for which I provide a source from the literature -- the rest they have to do all the digging on their own.

You don't really miss this class. 8am? Me droning on about this, that, and the other channel?

You don't have a course website for this sort of information? If you do, you are just teasing us.

8 am classes? You sir are a sadist.

I'll tell you what's wrong with education in this country- you make the students get up too early!

In my perfect world- classes start at 1 pm and lectures last no longer than 40 minutes.

Inhibition of nociceptors? Voltage-clamp method? Just reading over this exam question I envision PZ Myers teaching a class much like in the opening scene of Young Frankenstein...

You should see my re-animated badger.

Why do we need to know about this exam thing taking place in a small Midwestern 4-year college? Should we be in awe?

How about PZ being promoted to Full? He's over 50 and still an assoc prof. It really shouldn't be that hard to make it to full at his very small college without a grad program. This ain't the Stanford of the north!

Hey PZ, Google and Google Scholar show good stuff for you a number of years ago, when you were a grad student and a postdoc. Nothing at all recently, however. Guess research other than web mining is hard when clowning in the blogosphere 24/7.

Funny thing is that Behe got promoted to full after his ridiculous first book came out. How about you? Morris should do the same for you w/o a book, given the vituperating blogovocabulary that now seems to replace academic performance. Is this going to happen? Do you think you deserve promotion? Does blog-yelling now take the place of tried-and-true lab research?

You need a raise and more solid peer-accepted credence beyond terminal assoc prof in order for you to go beyond the adulation of a few dedicated grad students in the blogosphere. Do something other than pretending to rub elbows with the big four! Publish some peer-reviewed stuff and act like a real scientist!

This said, you're doing a good job. But a Mario Capecchi, you aren't, even though you always knew he was a good one. BTW, do you know about Capecchi's work in phage and bacterial genetics in the 60s? He's the real thing. Most of us are not.

PL- what a weird criticism! PZ's no Mario Capechi? Because he hasn't won a Nobel prize yet?

Oh- and believe it or not- there are things in life that are just as important as churning out research papers. Educating students for one. Fighting ignorance on a daily basis for another.

Is that really Paul Lurquin? Trolling?

#10,

I was referring to PZ's proud announcement that he always knew that Mario would get the Nobel. Jeez, what a revelation!
As for educating students, intimate knowledge of real research as done in the lab and in the field cannot be beaten. Get a grant, do your stuff, and tell your students about it. Don't get a grant (I wonder if PZ has any NIH or NSF support) and give your students second hand knowledge that anybody can get by reading (but not contributing to) the current scientific literature. As they say, the best researchers are the best teachers, although their teaching technique often sucks miserably. Sigh...

And miss my university access to journals.

PZ, you've just missed a trick.

If you had set the question on an Open Access paper we could all have read it and then we could all have discussed the answers your students produced. It would have been great. It isn't like there aren't plenty of papers that would have made a good starting point.

How about:

Lockless SW, Zhou M, MacKinnon R (2007) Structural and Thermodynamic Properties of Selective Ion Binding in a K+ Channel. PLoS Biol 5(5): e121 doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0050121

or

Ryglewski S, Pflueger HJ, Duch C (2007) Expanding the Neuron's Calcium Signaling Repertoire: Intracellular Calcium Release via Voltage-Induced PLC and IP3R Activation . PLoS Biol 5(4): e66 doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0050066

or even

Seebacher F, Murray SA (2007) Transient Receptor Potential Ion Channels Control Thermoregulatory Behaviour in Reptiles. PLoS ONE 2(3): e281. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0000281

Oh PZ you make me nostalgic. All my physiology lectures, right from second year to fourth were at 08:30 (they have apparently moved to 8am starts now). It isn't a problem at this time of year but in the winter when the sleet is blowing it is hard. Especially hard in 3rd year when you are newly married to get out of that nice warm bed... I used to lap up all the ion channel stuff. Ended up blocking voltage gated sodium channels in mouse embryos in vivo with tetrodotoxin for my PhD (muscle development, role of nerve vs activity). Oh happy days.

To Paul Lurquin,

PZ's "proud announcement" about Mario Capecchi's Nobel Prize is probably due to the fact that PZ used to be a postdoc at University of Utah, where Capecchi is and has been for many years. I would imagine that, both being developmental biologists, and given the time when PZ was there, he probably had a front-row seat for some of the big discoveries coming out of the lab. So it is much more personal.

Funny thing is that Behe got promoted to full after his ridiculous first book came out.

that IS a funny thing, indeed.

I trust you aren't implying he was promoted BECAUSE of his idiotic attempts at mis-educating the public via his books?
Seems to me I recall his own department rather disowning his endeavors on that front.

not exactly what one would call source material for promotion...

as to Paul, I rather think there could be any number of factors that affect promotion to full professorship, especially within the small college framework. research and grants are typically the least important in those situations from my experience. Not saying that he isn't involved in his own bits and pieces; sounds like he's got a few irons in the fire from what I've heard around these parts.

As they say, the best researchers are the best teachers, although their teaching technique often sucks miserably.

so, uh which of the two contradictory conclusions in this single sentence are you pushing?

again, based on my experience, the "best" (most prolific? most important contributions in the field?) researchers usually don't have much time to spend on teaching, but their insights are often invaluable to those who do. is that more along the lines of what you meant to say?

So you use this site to inform students?

Hummm...and your constant denigration of religion is then in part supported by your tax payer paid status as an "associate" professor in a state university.

Consitutional issues anyone?

Any students feel intimidated to not freely express their beliefs?

Just wondering.

Legal Eagle says, "Consitutional issues anyone?"(sic)

Where? You mean that PZ has the unmitigated audacity to teach first-rate science while he happens to possess personal opinions he isn't afraid of voicing on a site that wonderfully informs ANYONE who isn't a raving idiot?

You presume with much gall sir.

I'd bet my life his students can openly believe whatever they like. And if his students don't already know it, which I doubt by this time, they're incredibly lucky to have landed in the classroom of such a fine prof.

Go shove your "consitution" sideways, if you can manage to unpucker it wide enough.

I would imagine there are other ways for the students to communicate with the course leader. However, if there aren't, it does strike me as a little out of order expecting students to read a blog like this in order to pass their course.

Dollars to donuts PZ's syllabus has the link to his blog website and his students were made aware from day one that he'd occasionally post class related stuff there. His students are posting on his blog! This exam question post is no big deal - college courses all over the country have interactive online components, be it WebCT, faculty webpages with class links, or the occasional blog. Yeesh, people get their undies in a wad over the silliest things. For the chance to take a class from an instructor like Myers, I'd even get up for an 0800 class. And I hate mornings.

However, most of this blog is NOT relevant to the course the students are taking. Making reading this blog a necessity would be the rough equivalent of throwing in irrelevancies, into the lectures. And given the status of religion in US education, the various topics on atheism in this blog could make that a real problem.

This test is way easy. We demand harder questions! Much harder!

Oh, please. Students are not molly-coddled little babies, swaddled away from a troubling environment. Let 'em run loose and see some different opinions out there, and let 'em express their own different opinions. They can argue with me, and I'll like it.

A lot of students read my site anyway. They already know about it.

As for requiring them to read it, I don't. They post here, but they don't need to read my articles at all. In this case, I handed out a paper copy of all 5 exam questions in class today, but I also told them that, since it's hard to imbed a link on a piece of paper, I'd put the one question on the web so they could get to the source paper easily.

Jeez, this is a very strangely conventional and plain post to stir up all this weird controversy. Am I lacking in obnoxious, arrogant, ornery, pissy, harsh other posts where people can get cranky with me? If I make a post saying that the sun came up this morning will some outraged reader call the cops on me?

Donalbain and Paul Lurking: Atheism is NOT a religion. PZ isn't asking kids to believe ANY BULLSHIT about religion. This is not Christianblogs! Get your Jesus-Loving-Arses back to church!

My #2 was facetious, in case anyone was wondering :-)

8am class? Next semester, I have to take a 7:30am lab on MONDAYS! Ugh. I hope I evolve into a morning person during winter break.

Err.. #24 I am an atheist. I simply pointed out that IF reading this blog was necessary, then I would have problems with that. However, PZ said that it isnt either compulsory OR necessary, much as I suspected he would.

As for shielding students away Mr Zed, (see how I refuse to use your title! Muaahahahaha!). Nobody was suggesting they should be shielded, but rather that irrelevant rantings (which this blog is) should not be compulsory. Which they arent. So it's all good!

ok, I have university access to that article, I'm in a freakin ion channel lab, and I'm *still* jealous of those kids.

maybe I have a grass-is-always-greener problem here.

And as to the sick son-of-a-gun who suggested that you give the undegrads that Lockless/Mackinnon paper- for shame!
Open-source is dandy and all, but in addition to being fiendishly difficult, the paper isn't particularly neuro-oriented.

I
AM
SO
JEALOUS

then I would have problems with that.

can you guess how many would care that you have problems with that?

even you should be able to count that high.

(*psst* - you don't even need to use your fingers!)

Ichthyic said

again, based on my experience, the "best" (most prolific? most important contributions in the field?) researchers usually don't have much time to spend on teaching, but their insights are often invaluable to those who do

Well stated, and that was my experience many years ago. I'm retired now and am "self-educating" to learn more about the "life sciences". I find PZ's site a good resource for information and links to other sites. The more I learn about these areas, the more disgusted I become at those seeking to redefine science to include the supernatural and the more I enjoy PZ's (almost always) witty posts on this subject. I used to generalize Cephalopods in terms of ugly/squishy/slimy and can now see them as amazingly beautiful,intelligent,fascinating cousins on the Tree of Life. What a mind-flip.

PZ has been encouraging his students to post on his blog (I've been reading and enjoying those posts) and appears to be encouraging his students to understand and use the power of the Internet to communicate and exchange ideas about science. I find that brilliant, in that scientific research articles are often only directly available in expensive peer-review Journals and layfolk like me must rely on some media outlet to learn about new scientific studies (the "we report, you decide approach" - yeah, that works real well). I'd rather educate myself and read the research article myself. Kudos to the Scientists and Educational/Scientific Research institutions that support that approach!

Blog away scientists, be you primarily researchers or primarily educators!

Ichthyic:

Thought experiment!
How would you feel if students at a tax funded university had to log onto www.christdiedforoursins.com (and read all that entailed) to read necessary information from a professor?

How would you feel if students at a tax funded university had to log onto www.christdiedforoursins.com (and read all that entailed) to read necessary information from a professor?

the moment you can show that any student has been required to read anything other than the thread they were directed to, I might tend to think you had something to chew on. You rather blithely jumped to a rather implausible conclusion, though, don't you think?

If I send one of my students here to read an article on the development of fish larvae, it's not because I intended to "force" them to read the other threads, or even the random commentary contained therein.

here's another example:

if there was a community bulleting board that just happened to exist in front of a local church, I still would have no problems sending anyone there to glean information from the bulletin board itself.

there is no establishment clause issue here of any kind.

get off that tinker toy horse, boyo.

Donalbain said

How would you feel if students at a tax funded university had to log onto www.christdiedforoursins.com (and read all that entailed) to read necessary information from a professor?

I'd feel about as lousy as I do at current distribution of my federal tax dollars to "faith-based" initiatives. And the lack of distribution of condoms to HIV infested parts of the world because some clinic might also offer abortion services.

I second Ichthyic's suggestion ("get off that tinker toy horse, boyo") and suggest you read Ichthyic's explanation of the difference between your example and what PZ is doing.

Err.. #24 I am an atheist.

Then please join a church; we don't need you on our team.

Consitutional issues anyone?

No, there are no "consitutional (sic)" issues.

Any students feel intimidated to not freely express their beliefs?

Students' beliefs are irrelevant, and PZ didn't invite them to express them here.

This blog is NOT equivalent to something that "just happens to be outside of a church". It is very specifically an atheist blog. It says so right there at the top. Making the reading of a specifically atheist blog compulsory is no different to making your students read a specifically christian blog.

I notice that you didnt respond to my hypothetical situation though. Is there any reason for that?

As for whoever told me to "join a church", I simply have to laugh at that comment.

#9

How about PZ being promoted to Full? He's over 50 and still an assoc prof.

So? Why are academic rank and titles important, and how do they influence the quality of research and teaching? Many students don't give a cloacal membrane about the academic rank of their professors. Every academician makes decisions about what is most important to him or her, and it's really not for anyone else to judge or criticize. People have different circumstances, goals, priorities, and ethics.

#12

As they say, the best researchers are the best teachers, although their teaching technique often sucks miserably.

Who are "they"? You'd think a research scientist at any level-student, postdoc, or professor- would substantiate a statement like that with some educational research data, before posting it. One of the best researchers (as judged by publications, grant money, and therapetic translational potential of the research) at my university is a terrible teacher, even in a small group setting. As a (relative) outsider, the primary thing that I've learned is that this top researcher is a narcissistic snob.

Get a grant, do your stuff, and tell your students about it. Don't get a grant (I wonder if PZ has any NIH or NSF support) and give your students second hand knowledge that anybody can get by reading (but not contributing to) the current scientific literature.

Speaking of narcissism. So, professors are only supposed to teach research and information that they've produced? Good luck with that, in the context of medical or dental school teaching, where licensing exams are a consideration.

As for educating students, intimate knowledge of real research as done in the lab and in the field cannot be beaten.

In my experience, "the best researchers" (again, by the criteria of peer-reviewed, senior author publications and research $$$$) haven't actually done benchwork or fieldwork experiments for years (in some cases, they never did, since they always had technicians to boss around). Many spend the majority of their time managing and hiring people, writing grants, reviewing proposals, schmoozing at meetings in Europe or in ski resorts, hounding their postdocs to write up papers, and presenting honorarium-rewarded seminars. They haven't held a pipetman for years, couldn't stage a mouse embryo or set up primary cell cultures, and couldn't obtain Kohler illumination on the microscope. Of course there are exceptions, but many of the best-known and most-respected researchers are no longer working in the lab or the field. What is a student going to learn from an academic rank-obsessed professional schmoozer? How to pick the best wine to go with a salmon dish?

I don't think PZ's students need to be coddled or protected from his blog, but why necessarily direct them here? You can't embed links on paper, but don't they all have email?

Oh Barn Owl,

I sense the sore loser in your comments. Did you just lose your grant? Were you denied tenure or promotion recently? Can't get a tenure-track job?
Face it, this country is a meritocracy and PZ ain't cutting it. I don't like this system but I know I've had to play by the rules in order to get ahead or simply survive. Mercifully, I'm retired now.
One thing other than stupidity and ignorance goes against Behe and Dembski in this game: they'll never get any funding other than from their church(es). In this country, no federal cash means no credibility, as simple as that.
If the public understood that, they wouldn't take these two jerks seriously.
How many research-oriented full professors have vituperative blogs? I wonder. Blogs are fun, but I don't think they make full professors. In turn, blogging terminal assoc profs are bound to become VERY frustrated and may lose their stamina after a while.