A reader sent me this picture full of schadenfreude. Maybe this was the Gay Atheist Church of Malibu?
In case you are curious, here's Revelation Chapter 4.
1: After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2: And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3: And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4: And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5: And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6: And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7: And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8: And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9: And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10: The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Why anyone would think that gibbering insanity is worth spending a Sunday morning discussing is a mystery to me … unless maybe it was the Gay Atheist Church of Malibu, and they were discussing how looney one has to be to consider that nonsense to be of importance in your life. Your god is a demented god, Christians.
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Also His aim is pretty bad, or he isn't much on avoiding collateral damage, if all that is just to get one Atheist gathering place.
I have a theory. (Mind you, not of the scientific type.) Big sky daddy is a trickster and test those who believe in him. He placed insane and frankly immoral stories in his book. The reason being this, it is a test for his true believers. He buried false stories in his book. When big sky daddy judges those who took Revelations seriously, this will be the scene.
Big Sky Daddy (BSD): You silly gits. Why did you believe the lunacy that is Revelations?
True Believers (TB): But it is your word.
BSD: I gave you a brain and you refused to use it. Clearly Revelations is demented. If you thought about it, you would have realized that.
TB: But we put our trust in you.
BSD: And if I asked you to sacrifice your first born child.
TB: Just like Abraham!
BSD: Stupid bloody gits!
I think that reference to the four and twenty elders was code for something or other. Hmmm...
Reads like an acid trip to me. Or at least people who write down their acid trips sound like that to me.
Good thing Christianity isn't based on one chapter in the Bible. If vs. 11 has any possibility of being true, then perhaps the rest makes sense, even in some vague way.
OK, I'm guessing the "Leviticus 3" title a reference to 3:5, "And Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt sacrifice, which is upon the wood that is on the fire: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD."
Bronze Dog:
Actually, I've heard people come back from drug trips with much more coherent stories than Revelation. I know a girl who scarfed down a "heroic dose" of dried mushrooms (which had been mixed with chocolate to make candy). After the walls had started to breathe, she said, the bottom dropped out of her mind and a single sentence, spoken with the force of something beyond words — the dream-stuff of meaning, of which ordinary words are merely shadows — rose to her consciousness.
"Nothing exists save atoms and the void," it said.
She says she appreciates the scientific method on a whole new level now.
While researching something I planned to write on Thomas Pynchon, I came across the story of "77K", who gained "enlightenment" in the truest sense — a visceral understanding of Maxwell's Equations and electromagnetism — in the midst of a really freaky 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromoamphetamine trip.
Revelations, as one interpretation goes, is mainly obscure references and allegories that only a Christian of its time would really understand. But, since Biblical literalists believe that even Revelations is inerrant, all that gibberish must foretell the future somehow.
Hmmm... compare and contrast:
great globes of light massing toward the opening, and not alone these, but the breaking apart of the nearest globes, and the protoplasmic flesh that flowed blackly outward to join together and form that eldritch, hideous horror from outer space, that spawn of the blankness of primal time, that tentacled amorphous monster which was the lurker at the threshold, whose mask was as a congeries of iridescent globes, the noxious Yog-Sothoth, who froths as primal slime in nuclear chaos beyond the nethermost outposts of space and time!
It's bad when the Word of God is as creepy as Lovecraft.
Your wit is as sharp as ever, PZ.
"Big sky daddy is a trickster and test those who believe in him."
Well, yes, but you assume he's looking for rational people. Under a Gnostic interpretation, he might be looking for deranged fanatics who would believe anything he told them.
"God"/Ialdabaoth: "You know Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 contradict each other, right?"
Believer: "It's one of your mysteries, O Lord."
Ialdy: "And does Revelations make sense to you?"
Believer: (rambles on at length about how Revelations ties into world politics, declining morals, and those kids on his lawn.)
Ialdy: "You're my kind of crazy. There's an American election coming up: make sure the next President is a man of faith just like you. Or worse."
I think the "elders" bit is a mistranslation. It should be;
"...four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie. When the pie was opened, the birds began to sing. Wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the King?"
I'm told it prophesies the television show "Fear Factor".
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven
Hey, that reminds me of a joke:
Bill Clinton, George Bush and Dick Cheney die and go up to the pearly gates to be judged. They are each made to stand in front of a huge door. Then a voice booms, "Bill Clinton, you have led a sinful life, now this will be your punishment throughout all eternity." Then Clinton's door creaks slowly open, an ugly old witch comes out, grabs Clinton by the arm and drags him off.
Then the voice booms: "George Bush, you have led a sinful life, now this will be your punishment throughout all eternity." Bush's door creaks open, a really hideously ugly old hag comes out, gives an evil cackle, grabs Bush and drags him off.
So now Dick Cheney is left standing there by himself, wondering what was in store for him, when he notices a keyhole in his door. He looks through it and sees Paris Hilton. Suddenly the voice booms: "Paris Hilton, you have led a sinful life..."
A few scholars make the case that the Apocalypse is a Jewish document that has been ineptly edited to make it Christian. There were any number of nutty sects then, as now. It almost didn't make it into the NT canon.
I spotted that sign watching footage of the fires the other night. Most peculiar.
Leviticus 3:17: 17 " 'This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood.' "
That's pretty unambiguous, why do the Christians ignore it? Unless the whole book is just to be picked and chosen from 'a la carte', as Hitchens said.
Quibble: the Lurker at the Threshold is actually, I think, by August Derleth, who had a habit of shamelessly labeling stories that were almost (or entirely) his as "collaborations" to capitalize on Lovecraft's name recognition, and force-fit Lovecraft's menagerie of primal cosmic horrors into a pseudo-Christian good-evil dichotomy. <.<
I'm as much for poking fun at the religious loonies as the next guy.
But this is a horrible natural disaster affecting people who are busy losing everything they own. That church on fire would be far from the only building around there being destroyed.
We're mostly humanists here. How about a little more compassion and a bit less schadenfreude?
stogie I think that reference to the four and twenty elders was code for something or other... Isn't the next bit something about being baked in a pie? I remember something about a counting house too...
religion is:
a successive approximation of lies.
a collection of ideas in a non-Hausdorff topology.
it is in its essence a "fractal dust" having less than 1 dimension of space.
I think this sort of thread is worthwhile as a rather pointed indication that the disaster is NOT aimed specifically at gays and unbelievers. I'm not sure whether the specific church in question was an evangelical denomination that would buy into that sort of thing, though, so you might be right that it's not completely appropriate.
Nevertheless, the "blackbirds" comment is one of the funniest things I've ever read.
I've read that Paris want to get cryonically preserved and then resuscitated and rejuvenated in the future. She probably won't leave the mortal plane for quite awhile yet.
I can imagine the reaction in John's literary discussion group when he read from his early drafts of Revelation. Somebody probably complained, "Oh, no! Not another fucking angel!"
I think using a tragedy as big as the San Diego fires to make some anti-religious point is pretty pathetic.
It shows that maybe you aren't a humanist as much as a PZ-ist.
Hey, what are the 4 and 20 Elders supposed to do? Are they part of the Heavenly Bureaucracy or is the extent of their responsibility to just throw themselves on the ground and proclaim how worthy God is to be worshiped?
If they are bureaucrats, how does one get promoted to this level of incompetency? What are their duties? Why can't "all-powerful" Sky Daddy Dude do it his damned self?
And if all they do as "Elders" is flail about and proclaim how great God is.. I mean, Jesus, that's fucking pathetic.
Using an element of the event to make a counterpoint to the claims of certain religious bigots about the nature and cause of the event is perfectly consistent with humanist principles.
Additionally, we aren't claiming that the victims deserve what happened to them. At least, that I've seen. O.o
It may have been the Malibu Presbyterian church in the photo that was burning. Check out their website at www.malibupres.org. A church is more than a building. It sounds as though the ministry to the community will continue.
Randy, I've had it explained to me as this: everything God has created is for his own glory. So of course he's going to create himself a whole chorus line of supernatural beings whose entire job is to fluff him all day. In fact, the only thing that makes him mad about people is when they don't spend all their effort to glorify him.
No, seriously. This was a Christian saying this, and like it was a good thing too. OK, maybe with different words, but his took longer to say the same stuff.
Yes, yes - and why not? It's curious how the YEC's who insist that God "planted" all those fossils as a faith-test* never, ever consider that He might have sown a few deceptive seeds elsewhere for exactly the same purpose.
* (that is, when they're not insisting that the fossil record is an artifact of The Flood)
@PZ Myers:
First of all, I find it sad that [you] as a claimed scientist are ignorant of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems - read your last paragraph again if you are still confused.
Second of all, why would you be ridiculing religion here? Is this supposed to be preaching to the choir (scienceblogs followers)? Are you cool now?
Thirdly, most of you need to pick your fights appropriately:
"In the area of religion, we have information and general exegesis (doctrine), followed by application of religious organisation (rules and worship), and finally, personal experience of spirituality." More on that here: http://www.csarven.ca/three-significant-modes-of-human-organisation-and…
On a sensible note, I hope no one was hurt during that fire.
Maybe you should wait until the fires are out to take a crack at this? As I'm in the middle of the affected areas I don't see the irony or humor in the post. And yeah, I'm an atheist.
I keep hearing people say that there's great wisdom in the Bible. I just don't see it.
Azkyroth : Yog-Sothoth first appears in The Case of Charles Dexter Ward.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_Charles_Dexter_Ward
If wikipedia can be trusted on the issue.
However, I note that, while written in 1927, Charles Dexter Ward was not published until 1941, some 4 years after Lovecraft's death. This being the case, it is possible that Derleth had something to do with the editing or presentation of the novella, and so may have added or deleted material with the objective of making it fit more into his own ideas.
Actually, the Revelation as written by John is covered by the whole "God works in mysterious ways" catch-all that gets thrown up by most Bible-Literalists.
But, speaking of Leviticus . . .
3 And he shall offer of the sacrifice of the peace offering an offering made by fire unto the LORD; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,
4 And the two kidneys, and the fat that is on them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away.
5 And Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt sacrifice, which is upon the wood that is on the fire: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
(from the King James Version)
So, God likes barbecued kidneys ?
Perhaps the liver, sauteed with onions and fava beans, and served with a nice chianti ?
Nice of you guys to be caught reading some of the Bible.
I would encourage you to read more. Start with the gospel according to John.
"Have you read my book? There will be a test!" - God
Ross: you'll find most of the people here know the Bible far better than the people who attend services each week. Also, there's no aspect of "being caught" - people are free to read whatever they wish. Unlike religions that believe in circumscribing what kinds of ideas people are allowed to expose them to, atheist communities are quite open to examining ideas of all stripes.
Perhaps, seeing as you're an expert on the book, you could explain what relevance the cited passage has to anything in modern life? Is the Christian religion really dependent upon this fantastic nonsense that reads like a Tolkien rip-off? Thrones and rainbows and magical creatures with six wings apiece?
I had fully read the entire text of the bible before my 13th birthday, thanks very much. I've also studied other religious texts or at least summary descriptions of them. You might also infer from my posts that I am familiar with the works of Howard Phillips Lovecraft. Should I also now believe in Yog-Sothoth or Cthulhlu ?
I found some pictures in news.163.com,It's beautiful in Southern Califonia.I hope I'll go there for a view in the further.
http://www.jiblog.net/
Well, at least the atheists here are not announcing that the whole of southern California is suffering because of their horrid, Godful ways. You know, the way a lot of god-botherers seem to be doing.
I was going to say something about how to read Revelations with any enjoyment you need to be wholly "baked", but after considering the photograph I think it is an inappropriate comment.
Could a theologist (or piscologist, or geologist) enlighten us as to what a 'sardine stone' is?
xians like Ross Nixon should read Revelations 2 to see what the so-called "prince of peace" is really like: a vicious, vengeful person who kills the children of Jezebel because he doesn't like her life-style.
Jeebus is also a militarist in the chapter. But that is not very good for xian cherry pickers.
So bernada, Jesus should be tolerant of people who do evil forever? Wishful thinking...
A "sardine" stone is less fish-like that you might expect.
Carnelian is a precious stone of blood-red color that used to be called "Sardine stone," or "sardius" because in ancient times it was obtained from Sardis in Asia Minor. It also was one of the precious stones in Aaron's high-priest breastplate.
Revelation is an example of an ancient literary genre, apocalyptic literature, which is believed to have arisen from religious/cultural persecution. Revelation is many things, but gibberish it most certainly isn't.
Whether it is worth a Sunday morning to discuss a single chapter is another story, of course. And whether those doing the discussing truly understand Revelation is yet another.
For more information, go here:
"The very fact that an apocalypse was a common type of literature meant that if followed certain conventions of style, and people knew more what to expect from it. Because there were many other examples of apocalyptic writing, these conventions would have seemed less strange and cryptic. Also, apocalyptic literature was almost always a kind of literature for "insiders," that is to say, it was written for people who already knew something of the situation and of the symbols that were used to portray it. So, for the original audience of the Revelation of John, all these strange scenes would have been immediately intelligible..."
"Almost all New Testament scholars now take the view that Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian, sometime around 95-96 CE. He is the "beast from the sea" beyond doubt. What is not uniformly understood is how political oppression or persecution against the Christians of Asia Minor influenced the situation and, thus, how Revelation was responding to this situation."
I'll bet John sent Revelation off to his publisher in the middle of a drug-induced bender and then woke up the next day thinking, "I hope I didn't do anything studpid."
Well, Ross Nixon, what "evil" did Jezebel do?
If she did some, which I don't see, why psychopathic serial killer Jeebus kill her children?
My favorite is this, From Kings II 2:23-24:
"Elisha went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore 42 of the boys."
Inspired moral teaching or bronze-age lunacy? You decide.
Carnelian is a precious stone of blood-red color that used to be called "Sardine stone," or "sardius" because in ancient times it was obtained from Sardis in Asia Minor. It also was one of the precious stones in Aaron's high-priest breastplate.
Usually "sard" refers to red chalcedony, although sard and carnelian are very closely related. Sard also comes in colours other than red and is often found layered with onyx and used for cameos. The "sardine stone" of the Bible could be sard, carnelian or red jasper. (I worked for a lapidist for a while, occassionally it pays off in trivia like this.)
Ross,
If you're going to go about ascribing natural disasters to Jehovah as you seem so inclined to do, you'll have to admit something along the way.
Atheists burn down approximately zero churches per year. Jehovah lights up several in the same period.
Why does JHVH hate Christianity so much?
I don't know why Revelations is even in the bible.
IIRC, it doesn't mention Jesus even once.
It seems to be the ravings of a schizophrenic madman.
I read it once as a little kid because it had a catchy title. My only thought was, what is this weirdness and why is it in the book?
My natal sect mostly just ignored it, probably, because no one could make any sense of it either and how it fits in with the rest of the new testament.
For sheer evil, nothing beats Deuteronomy 21:18. Stoning disobedient children to death. Some influential xian cult leaders still advocate this, Rushdooney one of the early theologians of the death cults did.
FWIW, I'm sure that the ancient Israelis heard this and thought about it the way we do. Is this guy nuts or what? And did what we do, ignore it as cuckoo nonsense. I'm not aware of piles of little skeletons outside of old Israeli cities.
raven, "I don't know why Revelations is even in the bible.
IIRC, it doesn't mention Jesus even once."
Just plain wrong. Revelations 2:18 - "These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass(go figure?)"
Since neither you nor Ross don't seem to want to look up the text, what did Jesus say?
"20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the minds and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
Golly gee, just what "crime" did Jezebel commit?
Thank you Jeebus.
So that makes one place in the NT which says "faith alone", one that says "faith and works", and another that says "works" without mentioning faith... Right?
Thing reads like Marvel Comics. Just where are the pictures?
>> And I will kill her children with death
Yep, I've yet to find a better way!
Bob
Come on dude, your name is Daniel, and you're still not getting a kick out of this?
Shit happens, and I'm glad people aren't dying. Hopefully after this is over, we can gather up some brainpower and figure out how to stop it from happening again. Lighten up.
Are we absolutely sure churchsigngenerator.com had nothing to do with this? Seems really easy to fake to me, but what do I know.
Yes because that is EXACTLY what an all loving person does, loves even the worst.
What is the point of worshiping a supposedly all-powerful God, who can't even prevent his own churches from burning down, to say nothing of preventing innocent children from getting cancer?
If we atheists really believe that the world would be a better place without so much time, money, and thought being squandered on organized religion, we don't we do something about it?
Why don't we publicly "raise Hell" about the fact that churches burn down? That children dying from cancer demonstrates that God is either cruel or impotent, and should be discarded?
The idea is a long-term campaign to raise serious doubt in the common man that God/Jesus/Allah is worth venerating, breaking the cult of faith, and liberating minds.
We should have our own well-connected media spokesmen making public statements that public events prove again and again that God-worship is absurd.
Heck - we could challenge God to show himself. Let's sponsor an International "God - Prove You Exist Already Day!" demanding a nonviolent miracle be demonstrated in the must Public square.
Why not put pressure on the clergy to "put up or shut up"?
Perhaps it is high time that atheists stop being on the defensive all the time, and actually spend some political capital to change people's minds.
Aggressive? Distasteful? Perhaps. But considering where this world is at, it almost seems "a sin" not to act.
Kind of interesting that the old Wrath of God® fell on mainly Simi Valley and San Diego, two of the more affluent and conservative parts of the great state of Californication. It's like a God's got bad aim or something; missed the porn industry in the San Fernando Valley, missed Hellywood and instead burned out the homes of His chosen elect (mind you pricey metropolitan hillside property made those homes among the elite). Makes me kind of glad I am not a Christian if that is the kind of loving father God is.
Yes, He got Malibu, but is Olivia Newton John worth all that?
Hey, what are the 4 and 20 Elders supposed to do? Are they part of the Heavenly Bureaucracy or is the extent of their responsibility to just throw themselves on the ground and proclaim how worthy God is to be worshiped?
Here's a handy guide to the creatures of the apocalypse.
I second #58
Sarven Capadisli @29:
I know I am really going to regret asking this, but what the hell does this have to do with anything? Are you sure you are in the right thread?
Since you brought it up, though, PZ is a biologist, not a mathematician, logician or computer scientist. I am fairly sure biologists can graduate without studying incompleteness in pretty much the same way I was able to graduate without dissecting anything. For that matter, when I was in school it was an elective topic even in the relevant disciplines. In any case, this is a little like if I were to say, "I find it sad that [you] as a claimed religious believer, are ignorant of Vedic astrology." Not really your field, is it?
I remain deeply (and apprehensively) curious, however, as to what inferences you are drawing from incompleteness that make you think you can trump a discussion by simply averring that you have heard of it.
Knocking something you don't understand doesn't make you smarter. It just shows your ignorance. Kind of like if I were to say "why anyone would think that staring at a petri dish all day is worth spending a career on is a mystery to me."
That being said, the book of Revelation is the only book of the Bible that speaks of the future and is basically the recounting of a vision, which are inherently cryptic. Then again, "Your god is a demented god, Christians." is not something someone with an open mind would say. Rather, it's something uttered by either someone who is ignorant and/or just looking for a fight. I for one am not interested in that. But if you want to have a civilized discussion on the subject of Revelation and Christianity in general. I'm all ears.
Ok Ara,
Let's see what you have to offer.
then:
Ok, so you claim some special knowledge of 'visions' and that they are 'inherently cryptic'. Why is that? Why not crystal clear? Was the reception bad that day? It seems to me speaking about something you can't possibly know anything about proves your not that smart and highlights your ignorance and your arrogance.
Let's see if you are smart or ignorant or just arrogant.After reading your 'blog' I see you affirm the Nicene Creed so are you Catholic?
Or an individual right or wrong who has read the bible, read of the stories and decided the killings and such done in his name form their opinion. A better question is why you yourself overlook or seek to ignore these instances? What he sees as demented you seek to affirm. It's a matter of opinion that because it doesn't confirm to your biases you declare close minded. Did it ever occur to you that it was an open mind that led him to his opinion?
I see nothing but overwhelming ignorance in your post but would like to read your points on Christianity and revelation in general as I think you think you have something that somehow is new.
Please accept the offer.
Uber: Whatever man. Like I said, I'm not interested in fighting you. Believe what you want. It's your life.
Ara,
You haven't the foggiest of what I actually believe or dont' believe. But when asked to put up or shut up you have chosen to shut up. Does that speaks volumes about your possible arguments?
And I say the same to you, believe what you want it's your life. Who else would it belong to? Seems a pretty vacous statement.
I asked for a civilized discussion in a civilized manner. You reject the offer?
A church up the street from Caltech has a movable-letter signboard like that that used to say "ON FIRE FOR JESUS".
Just sayin'.
Why should it be cryptic? If god is omniscient and is communicating truth about the future it should be explicit. Dates, names, factual stuff that can be verified.
The fact that it sounds like the ravings of someone pushing a shopping cart around on a street corner most likely indicates that the author was pushing a cart around a street corner 1900 years ago.
If no one can understand it, it makes no sense, then who cares about it? My natal sect just ignored it like the funny uncle in the attic.
You're right, I don't know what you believe. But judging from your tone, which I'm afraid I may have instigated with mine (for which I apologize), you're not looking to find out more about Christianity. I may be wrong, but it seems you just want to tear down anything I'll put up. So really, what's the point? You wouldn't waste your time explaining biology to me if all I wanted to do was tear it down. Would you?
Ara has got nothing. He comes to the blog, spouts some silliness and then runs off in a huff. Typical.
Again your making an assumption. How do you know that you know more than I do about it? This is a common thought. What you need to consider very seriously is that there are many who know it far, far better than you and find it wanting.
You are wrong. The only reason it was dismantled was because it was simply so weak and inherently contradictory. If you want to enter into a discussion don't start it by tossing out how a 'vision is inherently cryptic' thats just nonsense on a level that prevents any rational human from taking your post seriously.
I'm going to presume your new just because I am unfamiliar with you. Yes, I and many , many, it others would do just that as we must continually do to the legions of misinformed creationists and ID'ers that frequent these waters.
JimC: You're baiting me, but fine, for the record. Studies of the book of Revelation show that there are patterns in the text that repeat over and over (seven bowls, seven lampstands, etc...) that reveal it was written as a Jewish poem. There's a lot of imagery in it as you'd find in poetry. On a deeper spiritual level there's another reason for it being written that way, and we're experiencing it right now. Jesus himself stated it in Matthew 13:13 (and he was quoting Jeremiah 5:21) that the reason for why God speaks in parables (and you can extrapolate that for the way Revelation was written) is so that only those really looking for the meaning of things can find it, while everyone else dismisses it. Which brings me to the true nature of Christianity. It's a matter of the heart, not a subject that can be proven by the scientific method. If anything, I believe God choses to operate that way. Because in the end, He wants people who believe, not people He had to prove Himself to. It doesn't mean that He's incompetent, it's what's needed for someone's love of God to be genuine. Regardless, skeptics' perception of God is flawed from the onset which makes any argument pointless. You can't discuss the grace of God with someone who believes that God should keep every church from burning and every Christian from suffering. It's just not the way that it works.
As you can tell from the length of this simple comment, an in depth discourse on Christianity can take pages and pages of back and forth. I don't have the time to get into it all, but it doesn't mean that explanations for all the flames thrown out in these comments don't exist. So if anyone who is reading really wants to know, the information is there. You can start by looking up people like Ravi Zacharias or Dr. William Lane Craig. You can find MP3s of their Q&A sessions and talks on rzim.org.
Uber, Ara doesn't appear to want to engage you, but I will.
Unfortunately, I'm a Christian of the far-left liberal persuasion, so my take on the Revelation of John isn't much different from yours.
My first reaction to the Revelation was "What the hell was that guy ingesting when he wrote that?" Later, I ascribed his ravings to senile dementia. Still later, I fervently wished that the Revelation weren't included in the Biblical canon, since it has spawned a major industry in incoherent, violent, and thoroughly disgusting "future history" vomited up by the likes of Tim LaHaye -- hardly a towering intellect of this or any other century.
In short, the Revelation is dismissed by a large segment of the Christian population as largely irrelevent to our experience. Furthermore, we disavow the racist and genocidal sentiments therein expressed. Our particular type of woo doesn't have room for hatred and murder.
But what do I know? I'm the first to admit that my brand of Christianity is itself dismissed by a huge number of my coreligionists as not RC -- religiously correct. And frankly, that's okay with me, since I think they are nuts . . . and dangerous nuts too. It amazes me to find that they unhesitatingly ascribe to Deity crimes which they would abhor in their neighbors.
Sorry, Ara -- I see you did indeed come back. Someday I will learn to refresh the screen before posting.
So where does that leave those of us who have higher standards of truth than just believing? Are we damned to suffer for all eternity because we actually care about evidence?
I thought driving to Quincy and back today would have pushed me off the edge into madness, but I see that I still can't compete: what on Earth do Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems have to do with a burning church?
And, I might add, the bigger problem with that whole "Just believe" business is that it isn't coming from God. It's coming from other human beings. Human beings who lie, or are confused, or who have other faults.
Why should I, or anyone, believe what other human beings say about something for which there is no evidence?
What kind of God would rely on the transmission of information on such inherently flawed communication channels?
Why should I accept the communication as even vaguely genuine, rather than just noise?
Owl: "So where does that leave those of us who have higher standards of truth than just believing? Are we damned to suffer for all eternity because we actually care about evidence?"
No, of course not. Jesus came to save the whole world, not just those of us who are able to temporarily suspend their rationality.
And by the way, there is no such thing as hell. There's just a garbage dump outside Jerusalem that Jesus used to illustrate his contempt for the religiousity of the day.
Owl: "Why should I accept the communication as even vaguely genuine, rather than just noise?"
No reason at all. Especially if you see evil coming from those who claim to be Christians.
Oooh, a cryptic riddle!
Um, neither of them lay eggs?
OK, more seriously: Wossname was probably bothered that PZ says definitively that Christians/Christianity is "gibbering insanity"; "looney"; "nonsense"; and "demented". Wossname is probably trying to say, "But Incompleteness means that you can't prove that it's gibbering looney demented nonsense and insanity". Or so I would guess.
This is just one of many and I do mean many takes on it. But I'll grant you this is the one you accept.
First off God doesn't speak in parables. The bible is replete with direct statements. The ascertion that God speaks in parables so you can find meaning in things is simply an apologist ploy and on a rational level nonsensical. If you want someone to understand you, especially about something important you don't try to hide it. Its circular logic. The parable has meaning, why? Because I am giving it meaning by looking for it.
You just said it. YOU choose to believe God(the one of you've been raised with) works this way. What makes you think matters of emotion cannot be proven by the Sci method?
Well in that case then your argument fails. Your love cannot be genuine because you are only loving what you believe God is all about. No great feat. The second problem comes when you presume he wants only those who love him without giving others enough evidence to know if they do or not. Lastly it fails because not only does he want those who love him he will allegedly punish those that do not.
And again have you read the bible? A whole lot of people die in that book. A whole lot. What is your definition of competence?
And why not? Why doens't it work that way? You sir have swallowed a bill of goods that allows you to rationalize anything away. Then you state it is the skeptics position that is flawed? Both of your posts of merit have made ascertions that are not only borderline woo-woo but totally unsupportable and yet you choose to be critical of the skeptic position.
Now this is just funny. It is possible to explain why unicorns came and ate my lunch but it doesn't make it valid. There are all types of vapid 'explanations' out there. Apologists have written volumes and felled forests writing them. In the end they always lack the simplest of things that even the most minor scientist has-evidence.
Dr. Craig? Oh my gosh. Now it all makes sense. Remember what I said about vapid apologists? His own students find his arguments so weak that they have chased more than a few from the religion. He hides his logic errors better than most apologists but they are still easy enough to find. Do you think Jesus wanted all these meandering weak and in many cases outright frauds presiding over his words.
You either have faith or you don't. Every examination of the bible itself shows it to be the very product of men in their time.
Leigh- You and I share more than I care to let on:-)
I really haven't given my position just found this other fellas position full of woo-woo.
Went over to one of the websites Ava listed above and this is the kind of thing one reads:
Pretty much symbolic. Arguing against the argument from silence WITH the argument from silence. They didn't write about because it was ASSUMED everyone knows virgins give birth after being impregnated by invisible beings in the sky.
And an invisible being impregnating a virgin is somehow superior and 'radically' different than Greco-roman myths.
Yep, typical apologist tripe. I also notice they sell much material over there. Big market to reassure people with big words.
ara, what is cryptic in Revelations where Jeebus says he will kill Jezebel's kids?
That seems clear enough. Why does Jeebus do that? Because Jezebel sleeps around, and maybe gets paid for it.
That is Jeebus's idea of justice.
Is that so difficult for you to understand?
I love it when theists accuse atheists of "wishful thinking." That's right up there with "Evolution is a fairy tale for adults." LMAO
@Kseniya, #85
Those rank right up there with "Atheists are arrogant" and "Atheists think they have all the answers".
LOL - yes. "All" the answers. I do have all the answers. Right here in this little book. The Book Of... damn, where did I put it? Did I imagine it? Maybe there is no The Book Of...
Ever think that the one who sent in the picture might also have been in a fire zone themselves? Some people do manage to have a sense of humor about such things.
If religious nuts didn't have so much power (GW Bush) and didn't spend so friggin' much time telling me I was going to burn in eternal pain for crimes their sky fairy told them that I committed, I would feel nothing but sympathy when I saw something like a church burning. But when a decent minority of church-goers are flaming assholes (and the more regular the attendance, the more likely one is a flaming asshole and a hater), one can't help but feel a bit of schadenfreude when one sees something like this.
I am reminded rather of Ezekiel 23:20.
"She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose semen was like that of horses."
Then again, there are very few things that don't remind me of Ezekiel 23:20.
Bronze Dog wrote:
"Reads like an acid trip to me. Or at least people who write down their acid trips sound like that to me."
That is probably not too far off the mark.
As I understand it, the world at the time was in a so-called "Little Ice Age", and Israel was experiencing a famine. The famine would have been caused by excessive rain which would ruin the rye crop (ergot fungus grows nicely when the grain is moist).
Why rye? Only rich people ate wheat. John of Patmos, presumably poor, likely ate rye bread. Hence the acid trip.
Full disclosure: I am a recovering Xian. I used to belong to an evangelical church, and before that I was Catholic.
One thing I don't get: why stoning as a method of death-dealing? For a supposedly merciful religion, it has to be one of the slowest ways to kill someone. Far more merciful to run 'em through with something sharp and pointy.
Probably a communal action partly to share the responsibility and partly to free any one individual of direct guilt as it would be impossible to say which stone or stones were most responsible for the death. That and a means to share the fun and stretch it out some, after all, public executions have historically been a crowd pleaser.
Revelations is one of the big things I always bring up when pointing out the earthly and flawed nature of the Scripture in its current codification. By the Church's own admission, it is the ravings of a disgruntled Roman ex-bureaucrat who wrote it while living in a cave above a volcanic vent on the Island of Patmos where he was exiled for assorted crimes and incompetences. Quite frankly, given the time at which he was living, he should have been happy he wasn't beheaded or crucified like most of the corrupt officials of the day. Beyond the obvious textual flaws and contradictions with previous scripture, there's the larger question of why Nicea would include the work of a bitter, hallucinating crack-pot in the approved works column in the first place. I guess those are your go-to-guys for frightful imagery to keep the flock in line.
Ara:
Your argument about the god of the NT only wanting believers "of the heart" is bupkiss. If that were the case, Thomas would have been smote to the ground when he touched the wounds along with all the make apostles, seeings as not a single one of them believed Magdalene when she returned from the tomb to claim he'd risen. This is just one of the the more obvious contradictions in christian theology/scripture. When you consider that revelations was likely written centuries after the gospels, which themselves were written centuries after any period when Jesus could have possibly lived, by humans, pursuing their own private agendas (another broadly conceded fact that explains the disagreement of the gospels themselves), is it any surprise that the bible frequently disproves itself as a perfect, divine document?
errr.. that should be "male" apostles. Comeon; the k's right next to the l :(
Very interesting discussions, though I might disagree on a point or two. It is very good to see the discussion and the efforts to understand though!!
Here is Wisdom...
So that makes one place in the NT which says "faith alone", one that says "faith and works", and another that says "works" without mentioning faith... Right?