I get email

I am again dumbstruck at the proud ignorence on display.

I thought I had built up an immunity to it, but it looks like all it takes is a week's worth of 'too burned out/busy to read blogs like this' to reset my tolerance threshold.

Jacob's obviously got a thing for man tits. That's scary.

Is it just me, or do all the letters reiterate the formats of the ones previously posted? The cracker-fundies aren't really a creative bunch, are they?

What books?!

"...probably can't get a date with a decent woman."

Yeah but its really the indecent ones everyone wants.

I would like to however give a hat tip to Mr D'Orlando. I was sitting here wondering what to cook for dinner and the tofu/red wine thing has given me ideas. I'm off to make my evil atheist, satanist inspired, cooked-on-the-ever-burning-hellfires dinner.

Nowhere to be found in any of these letters is anything approaching a rational argument. It's all emotion, emotion emotion...baseless assertion, baseless assertion...insult, insult, insult.

And these sorts of magical thinkers outnumber us 10 to 1. The unmates are truly running the asylum.

I know you're not wasting your time replying to these people (you're not, are you?), but one possible riposte to all those folks who insist there's no proof that the wafer you tossed was a consecrated host:

"You must have faith!"

That would give them a cheery little laugh and then calm them down. I'm almost certain. Amen!

Before I go though I'd like to bring attention to, what is probably my favourite moron fundie quote EVER.EVER. EVER.

"All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD"

Says it all really doesn't it?

"How are we to believe that you actually have a consecrated host? For all we know, you've only obtained an unconsecrated wafer."

Could this be a skeptic amongst fundies? There may actually be hope for Mr. Reich yet. We should all not-pray for his unsalvation and the removal of his religious brainwashing.

...or we could just ignore his and the other fundamentalists' impotent threats and insults and go about our work forwarding humankind.

"All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD"

Now how would he know this? He obviously isn't on friendly terms with education OR knowledge.

Oh, wait, right. Yeah, the Bible told him so. Ok, good. Case closed. God said it, he believed it, what a dipshit.

There appear to be quite a few good recipes involving tofu and red wine:

http://www.google.com/search?q=tofu+red+wine

Wow, some of those were more than a little bit lengthy.

I think "MEATBALL" would be a nice personalized license plate, meself.

I'm not surprised so much that PZ has written books that he hasn't told us about (he's obviously saving them for 2010, when he'll be unable to post for six months owing to having broken his [...] and twisted his [...] in the Great Octupus Rumpus), but rather that Hell has an Internet connection.

Who knew? (Who does Hell use as an ISP? Probably Panix, Pandemonium's local ISP ;} )

See, PZ, you've just given the self-righteous free ammo. Now they think Jesus was martyred more than once!

Stunts like the one you pulled - not that I care personally - are like stirring up the silt on the seabed. It would have been cooler to simply explain how few Christians actually understand how this tradition came to be - long after the first century.

Zeno's idea is great!

BTW PZ how did you get an unbroken consecrated wafer. That's the interesting bit.

I must agree with Jacob that it's possible the reason you were able to desecrate the sacred host is because it was truly the glorious transubstantiated Body of Christ, and in his infinite mercy and humility, he humbled himself into the form of a meek and lowly wafer, which could have smote you down mightily but chose to bear the suffering and degradation like the true Lord and God he really is.

On the other hand... maybe the holy wafer put up no resistance because it was just a fracking cracker!

Eh, flip a coin, they both seem equally straightforward and plausible.

I'm not surprised so much that PZ has written books that he hasn't told us about

Yes, I was wondering about that too. Maybe it's PZ's dirty little secret, he writes books for Christians - this whole atheistic scientist thing is just a schtick!

I can't help noticing that the grammar is much better in these emails than the usual tripe that we see posted by the deluded on this site... Anyone care to offer suggestions as to why?

if you will believe in God when you are watching your man tits burn in hell you fat bastard.

I have no idea what that means... but it sounds very negative to me.

Uh, Right. I'm no fan of tofu but I do agree with Bride of Shrek about the favorite quote.

I peed on a catholic cracker. Hack me to avenge it, you freakish internet zealots! (My IP adress is 127.0.0.1)

\d'Orlando:

Hey take care and remember to say grace before you stuff your foul mouth with tofu and red wine for a long and filthy life steeped in disgraceful living.

Sacrilege!!! I am truly horrified by d'Orlando. His immortal soul is in jeopardy.

Tofu should never be served with red wine. Only white. It says so in the bible somewhere but I'm too appalled to look.

D'Orlando is going to hell for sure. Unless he says 15 Hail Marys and sends us twenty bucks for our tofu and white wine slush fund.

Hmm. I wonder if pumpkin wine is also a Satan-inspired liquid? 'Cause I'm having some of that with my very late supper in about five minutes. And you know what? It's really tasty.

Mmm, Satanic drinkables. But no tofu for me.

Too funny.

Poe's Law strikes again.

BUT science teaches us that not even the slightest particle of dust disappears without leaving a trace. So when man dies mortally his soul lives on and never dies.
Wow, science *proves* that the soul exists? Why did no one tell me before?

Conservation of energy = Everlasting life.

It's all so simple now!

Also, it seems like at least one of the emailers is unaware of the famed Trophy Wife(tm).

... What do you think happens to your immortal soul, if you have one? Oh you don't have one you say? Wrong. Even imbeciles like you have one and you will be judged when you die.

How embarrassing, he totally proved you wrong there.

I've always suspected that the most vehement proclamations of belief, and displays of vitriol toward non-believers come from those who have some kind of inkling that it's all bullshit.

-jcr

Jacob's obviously got a thing for man tits.
That's because he's a right tit himself...

BoS:

Says it all really doesn't it?

Yup. What a racket. "It only works when you shut off your mind." Brilliant!

(You can only see the faeries when you're not really looking at them.)

BrainHertz:

you will believe in God when you are watching your man tits burn in hell you fat bastard.

I have no idea what that means... but it sounds very negative to me.

It means, "The guy who wrote that is so fucking stupid, he thinks that when you die, your body goes to hell!"

@H.H.:"
Nowhere to be found in any of these letters is anything approaching a rational argument. It's all emotion, emotion emotion...baseless assertion, baseless assertion...insult, insult, insult."

Well, of course it is. You have to keep one thing in mind: The reason WHY such a lot of these people are going all frothing at the mouth.
Most of these people are just horribly stupid, mentally dull morons, normally on one of the lowest social levels. They don't get respected for anything, simply because they don't *achieve* anything. Neither in deed nor thought.
The one thing and place were they even have a shimmer of hope of getting "respect" is during their brainless prayer sessions and in church. Now the evil atheist wants to declare that the one thing, that makes them feel as if they would be worth a bit more than a turd, is basically worthless.
Of course they go all frothy at the mouth. They ARE useless stupid crap, after all. And somewhere deep within they know it.Which makes it hurt even more.

My guess is that the tofu-and-red-wine thing is because both contain possibly cardioprotective constituents - isoflavones and resveratrol respectively; hence the "long" life. The "filthy" part, I think he's expecting you to provide for yourself!

Then there's the stuff that you don't even see. I must admit that Father Joe's rants have had a powerful effect on me, as a Christian -- not the effect Father Joe wishes. Don't go to his site unless you really, really want to see subtle disconnections from reality displayed in a way that makes one recognize that wackoes are all around:
http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/host-desecration-not-free-spe…

I've always suspected that the most vehement proclamations of belief, and displays of vitriol toward non-believers come from those who have some kind of inkling that it's all bullshit.

Agreed. Who do you think they are trying to convince?

What a style! What a logic! Surely it should be published.
Maybe with this title: "Letter to a Atheist Nation"

Red wine...tofu. Hmmm, maybe a slice of tofu lying neatly between two round 'crackers'; washed down with some Christian Brothers red plonk. Wait....maybe we can get you some genuine holy wine (aka Jesus blood).

This list of letter feels like a party game, where you read a letter and then create the most appropriate description from a pool of words.

In this case the pool would start with: teh, stoopid, burns, weapons grade, knuckle dragging, circular, delusion, vapid, hypocritical, sadistic, homoerotic, self-loathing, fantasy, narrow, hateful, degraded, ironic, pathetic, sad, miniscule, ... add your own words! Maybe by the end we'll have another game to play besides Creationist Bingo!

I can just see it. It'll be the "Apples to Apples 'Nutcase Christian Letter Edition'".

Why don't you try debating a grownup Christian intellectual[...]

Jacob hasn't been following you for long, has he, PZ? That or he thinks as little of your debate opponents as many of us do.

6% of the world are atheist? (I presume that's what was meant.)I'd guess more like 16%, and that may be conservative. Add in Buddhists and many Confucians, and I'm thinking we've likely got somewhere between 1/5 and 1/4 of the planet that doesn't believe in gods.

Well, since the cracker thing has come back, I posted this while you were travelling, PZ. It's buried deep in one of the longer threads started by a Minion and thought I'd repeat it in a more visible spot early on in the comments:

Donahue was on EWTN's "The World Over" Aug. 1st. The topic was anti-Catholicism, and you came up. Need I say that the description of events was less than accurate? Audio available here for those interested. I was baby-sitting my mother that night after she'd had an insulin reaction, and she likes to sleep to the Catholic channel. Anyway, I had to do a double-take when I saw PZ's face staring out from the TV screen as I walked in to check her blood sugar.

@Most Holy Subpope, Raven: You serve red wine with tofu when you dress it up in a rich marinara sauce with lots of basil and garlic and pour it over whole-grain spaghetti. Yum. Now I know what I'll fix for dinner...

"probably can't get a date with a decent woman"
Now THAT is an unspeakable insult to Trophy Wife. PZ, you will have to comfort her by taking her on another vacation.

"All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD. "

... and the grapes were sour, anyway.

I'll second that! PZ "Meatball" Myers just sounds SO delicious...can you please add that as a middle name? :-)

I'd love to hear these letters read in a podcast or on YouTube like Dawkins did with his crazy mail. Maybe done by celebrities or celebrity impersonators.

Hahah, why not try debating a grownup Christian intellectual? Because they're figments of your fevered imagination!

1 Corinthians 13:11 - When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Like Religion.

I'd love to hear these letters read in a podcast or on YouTube like Dawkins did with his crazy mail. Maybe done by celebrities or celebrity impersonators.

Like Morgan Freeman! His voice can make anything sound respectable.

I'm an atheist who has no more truck with Catholic ritual superstitions than with Islamic caninophobia, but I'd love to see PZ print a lucid, sincere letter condemning his actions - you know he's received some - and then respond to it.

That would be far preferable to his continuing to shoot fish in a barrel (a cracker barrel?) in what has become a pathetic, ego-stroking exercise.

"Oh, look at this crazy hate mail! I'm so much better than these god-crazed dolts, aren't I? Huzzah for me!"

It's well known that tofu and red wine are unamerican. Well, I guess the guy meant sushi instead of tofu (remember what was said about John Kerry?). And I guess he never heard about the wineyards of California. But the message is clear: if you're an atheist, then you're a traitor.

You kinda have to wonder while reading these whether PZ is playing a joke on us and writing this stuff himself. I mean how can someone with the ability to type (even with numerous spelling and grammatical errors) would think like this.

It's not just that the inmates are running the insane asylum, they've turned the asylum into an academy. And they are breeding, and indoctrinating their offspring.

BrainFromArous@44,
Concern trolls are still concerned.

"Ever think why satanic worshippers try to steal the consecrated Hosts in Catholic churches to desecrate them in their vile worship of the father of all lies? It is because, as evil and stupid as they are, they know the consecrated Host is the real presence of Christ, Body, Soul, Blood and Divinity."

LOL! I think he forgot to note the rest of his beliefs: that Satanists have books that talk when you open them, are escorted by hoards of black dogs with bright red eyes, ride broomsticks through the air and meet on hills to kiss the arse of a goat.

It is encouraging to know that such thinking isn't excluded to the developing nations only. True, old-fashioned superstition. Wow...

Of course PZ can't get a date with a decent woman. Decent women don't date married men. And of course, since PZ has the Trophy Wife - who as seen in the Galapagos pix is a knockout - he doesn't need to date the indecent ones.

Actually, kudos to PZ. Being hated by total strangers is not easy, even on the internet. It takes some real grown up sanity to let insults from idiots just roll off your back. And that's not easy to achieve.

Michael X @36:

I'm envisioning a red-wine-and-tofu drinking game. You know, every time satanic is mentioned, take a sip. The phrase "burn in hell" earns two sips. Whenever PZ's intelligence is questioned, have a piece of tofu, prepared to your taste. Etc. Though I'd probably be passed out before finishing even one letter.

Definitely white wine with tofu. Or saki. Or beer even. But only a diseased mind would conceive of tofu and red wine.

Professor Myers,
Somewhere out there, lying in wait, is a "christian intellectual" who is going to eat your lunch, and/or tofu. Be very afraid!

Cath, I agree, it's being hated by total strangers is not easy, and I believe it to be a badge of honour!

I continue to applaud you PZ, for brightening up my day with a giggle!

Wow- "You don't really care about biology. You only care about hating God and getting revenge on him; about preaching to people that God doesn't exist and to question everything, as you said."

Look at that last sentence. "God doesn't exist". "Question everything".

I wonder if these are equally evil? Do they mean the same thing to the writer? Can he even tell the difference?

Epically sad.

How are we to believe that you actually have a consecrated host?

Well you theists don't have much trouble believing all sorts of crazy stuff. What's stopping you this time?

And the concept of "getting revenge on God" is hilarious!

I'm picturing a goombah hitman, Pussy on "The Sopranos".

"The diety, he'll be sleepin' wit da fishes. You got da canoli?"

Trying to figure out how PZ plans to get revenge on God.
Is it merely by refusing to believe in him (her/it/ramen)?
What does it mean that PZ is allegedly hating / plotting revenge against something which he doesn't believe exists?
In my neighbourhood, we'd put soap in a tube sock and beat the living hell out of someone (if we REALLY wanted revenge...you know, not just for fun).
But how does one knock an imaginary God down...and where do you hit it with the soap/sock?
Ow. My head hurts. Just in case, though, I'm keeping my socks handy.

If this really is a new weird sexual fascination you've stumbled upon, you ought to capitalize. Unholymantits.com is totally available.

My IP adress is 127.0.0.1

In an internal network that lies behind a router. That's why it starts with 127. The 0.0.1 part is explained by the fact that such networks tend to contain very few computers.

I'd love to see PZ print a lucid, sincere letter condemning his actions - you know he's received some

Do we? I don't. Do you?

In fact, I'd be pretty surprised if he had got any such thing. People who don't get mad at the incident don't find it worth writing letters about.

Or saki.

Sake.

Jesus would be so proud. True loving peaceful Christians.

I could call you a sub human pagan savage but you already know that so what is the point.

Actually, no he couldn't. Pagan's believe in spirits, magical spells, strange creatures... You know, like Christians but without the freakish rhinestone clad sweaty "rock-star" preachers.

Remember this pin head, All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD.

Um, education is supposed to elevate us from "Child Like" confidence in fairy tales. Or did I miss something? Does he want me to put teeth under my pillow? I think "Child Like" is the best descriptor of all of these letters.

Christian intellectuals? Ohnoes!!!!

Fun fact:
I just noticed that I get more theistic with every beer I drink. Really, I do!
Does that mean that religious people are drunk beyond belief (pun intended) 24/7? If they are, I really need to sign up with one of those loony christian rackets.
That raises an interesting question, though: Driving a car when under the influence of drugs is illegal for very good reasons, so shouldn't believers' licenses be revoked?
Aww, damn it, only one beer left. So I'm off to bed now, and I'll wake up a sober but slightly hung-over atheist. Too bad. Being religious for an hour and a half was delightful.
Next time I'm drunk, I'll pray for PZ and all Pharyngulites, and when I'm done with that, I'll pray for random people. No, I'll pray for anything that f*ing moves!
Don't say I didn't warn you.

Wow, how many people have insulted your ability as a professor so far!??! *shakes head* As if it was relevant to the cracker!

Anyway, rateaprof.com has four entries for Paul Myers at UofMinn Morris----all of which have 3.8/5. To give you a little perspective, mine average around 3 so I'd say PZ is pretty good at his job. :) I did notice that your class is hard--it's the consistently lowest category--but I happen to get more out of challenging courses...

Cheerio!

Anyone who denies the existence of God just has to look around the world about him to know this just didn't happen.

Damnit. I've been imagining everything!

grownup Christian intellectual

There's three words you don't see strung together very often.

For some who are atheists, the fact that meat-robots who have no soul and who are going nowhere, and yet who believe in something between birth and death - sure makes them upset...

Why bother?

Meatball, meatball ... what does it mean? It must be a sign from On High ...

AHA! EUREKA! AN EPIPHANY! PRAISE THE PASTA! For I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

Brothers and sisters, the prophet D'Orlando has delivered unto us the Good News that PZ Myers, whom we held for an ordinary mortal, is in truth a part of the body of The Noodly One, and therefore Most Holy. Meatball, get it? He's tucked in under all of those Noodly Appendages. Heck, PZ is touched by Noodly Appendages all the time!

You can think of it as a kind of Holy Trinity: The Meatball, the Other Meatball, and the Hunk of Noodles, all of which together form the FSM. Think of PZ as the transsubstantiated flesh of the Meatball. One of 'em, anyway.

PZ, as never before I stand in awe of your fleshy self. Praise the Pasta, and please pass the Parmesan.

The individual that insults PZ for his pay is a really, really misguided in his thinking. PZ is educating people about a subject he has a passion for and is in dire need of a resurgence in this country. That means more than dollars and cents.

Education and knowledge are far more valuable than numbers printed on paper.

Dan @ 68 I left you lying in your grave with a decaying brain and with no place to go. But I see you are still here pouring forth insane effluient from that still existing brain. Those numerous insane ranting letters to PZ are abject proof that religion is the most pernicious form of insanity and only serve to prove what religion can have effects on already diseased brains. Is this the hand of your imaginary god or the random mutant effects of evolution gone awry?

I love how "I'll pray for you" is always used as an insult.

It would do so well in a Monthy Python sketch.
"Sir, the enemies are outnumbering us. What do you suggest we should do?"
"We'll tell them... we'll pray for them!"
*shocked gasping*

I've been reading these emails and comments now since this silly cracker incident started to develop. Was Scott Reich really the only one who actually realized that the infantile rage, religious bigotry, helpless anger and open hate from Catholics only reinforces the view that your act has triggered them to do the exact opposite of what they preach?
The cognitive dissonance of these people boggles the mind!

Wait a minute Holbach....

I've got the perfect argument for proving that God has a sense of humor....

man-boobs!

Aren't Christians supposed to be all "I'm really really concerned for your immortal soul and I want to help you" as opposed to "I'm really really pissed off you stupid asshole and I want to kill you"? And they think they're better for this? Wow. I'm just......I give up on these people.

How are we to believe that you actually have a consecrated host?

Yeah, *that* defies belief.

For all we know, you've only obtained an unconsecrated wafer.

What, they can't tell the difference between a wafer and The Body Of Our Lord?

Weren't you supposed to lose your job and/or get blown up by Islamic terrorists by now?

"I am sorry that I called you a hillbilly and said that you must live in a trailer park."

Hey! What's wrong with trailer parks? He must not have seen those sweet triple-wides with room for a hot tub. :)

David Marjanović, OM wrote to tell us that the IP address 127.0.0.1, which greymalkin dared those offended by wafercide to hack, is not a public IP address, but only occurs "[i]n an internal network that lies behind a router." I.e., no matter who you are, it's *your own* IP address.

You're usually a whole bunch more alert than that, David. Too much tofu and red wine? ;-)

Greymalkin is hoping the offended parties expend a great deal of energy furiously hacking - themselves. (Or in the likely event they already know 127.0.0.1 is their own IP address, he's in effect saying "go hack yourself.")

Why bother?

Man, have you got it backwards. Didn't you notice who writes all that hate mail? Hint: it ain't "some who are atheists".

You may also have noticed that the filename of this post is "i_get_email_21.php". That's right, it's the 21st time PZ publishes funny hate mail he got.

Wait a minute Dan.... I've got the perfect argument for proving that there is no imaginary god and only evolutionary processes.... You!

#26 "I've always suspected that the most vehement proclamations of belief, and displays of vitriol toward non-believers come from those who have some kind of inkling that it's all bullshit."

Reminds me of a psychiatric/psychology theory that the most virulent homophobic men are those who experience some uncertainty about their heterosexuality.

Or more probably the 22nd.

You're usually a whole bunch more alert than that, David. Too much tofu and red wine? ;-)

Greymalkin is hoping the offended parties expend a great deal of energy furiously hacking - themselves.

Hard to imagine that anyone who can hack at all doesn't know what kind of address 127.0.0.1 is.

No tofu and no wine ever. They both stink.

BTW PZ how did you get an unbroken consecrated wafer. That's the interesting bit.

Ah, so you've never seen a Catholic mass? Only one of the hosts, one which is extra-large so everyone can see it, is broken. All others are given out whole.

The other day I cruelly smashed some nuts to bits for a pesto. While others nearby wept softly, they themselves stoically accepted their terrible fate. I was impressed and deeply moved.

Sheesh, everyone knows red wine and tofu don't go well together. I'm supposing the guy is thinking wafers and red wine are a symbol of a meaningful life? What a nutter.

All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD.

It does make one wonder why the author decided to SHOUT this particular bit. To some of the religiously deluded, childish naivete is something to strive for, because it makes them feel good.

Jean Meslier (1732):

If religion was clear, it would have fewer attractions for the ignorant. They need obscurity, mysteries, fables, miracles, incredible things...

In the matter of religion, men are but overgrown children. The more absurd a religion is, and the fuller of marvels, the more power it exerts; the devotee thinks himself obliged to place no limits to his credulity; the more inconceivable things are, the more divine they appear to him; the more incredible they are, the more merit he gives himself for believing them.

All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD.

wonderful

I have zero patience with the mindless blatherings of the outraged Christians, but I'm not turning cartwheels about the desecration of a religious symbol. Those of us who think and who want to secure toleration from the Religious Right (who have ruled this country for twenty of the last 28 years and are likely not goping away anytime soon) should have the FREAKING COMMON SENSE TO TREAT THE RELIGIOUS WITH THE SAME TOLERANCE AND UNDERSTANDING THAT WE ARE ENTITLED TO. In the eyes of a Christian who believes in the Real Presence, what you're doing is among the most profane things you can do.

It's simply wrong. Please stop.

Meloir @ 85 To add to the comment by astute Jean Meslier on insane religion, I am currently reading "Ghost Train To the Eastern Star" by Paul Theroux, and in his journey through Azerbaijan he makes this observation: "Religion needs harshness and hokum to succeed." Paul is putting mildly but succinctly! Religion has the same effect all over the earth in many cultures, just as cancer does not discriminate in the same manner.

That's why the one prat was all obsessed about tits. They're really all just sockpuppets for Yelling Bird at Indie Tits.

@ Bride of Shrek #8

That is a good quote but this is a recent close runner. It comes from the US Olympic Archery team's coach.

To be an effective archer, Lee said, athletes must learn to clear their heads and focus. "If you are Christian," he said, "then people can have that kind of empty mind."

Kevin @ 87 Real presence? You mean reality and science.

It's simply wrong. Please stop.

Please stop what exactly?

I just heard on the radio that a priest was robbed while collecting the donations of the sheep. What the heck, where was his god?

I know that this is completely off-topic, and I apologize, but where does one acquire pupmkin wine? (#22) That sounds fantastic.

But only a diseased mind would conceive of tofu and red wine.

Personally, I always figured it took a diseased mind just to think of tofu.

But yes, we're in partial agreement at least, here. Why profane perfectly good red wine by so associating it? Sacrilege. Red wine, let's see (flips thru food and drink guide...) Red wine should be paired with... ah, here it is... Red wine should be paired with:

*More* red wine.

Speaking of which, it looks like it's time to uncork breakfast.

I mean pumpkin.

Kevin, #87: Those of us who think and who want to secure toleration from the Religious Right (who have ruled this country for twenty of the last 28 years and are likely not goping away anytime soon) should have the FREAKING COMMON SENSE TO TREAT THE RELIGIOUS WITH THE SAME TOLERANCE AND UNDERSTANDING THAT WE ARE ENTITLED TO.

What are you saying? That you think that we are too sensitive to be able to put up with them insulting us in an extremely irreverent manner?

I agree with your point, though. I promise not to throw a hissy fit, make death threats, or demand that anyone be fired for desecrating anything I find sacred.

The problem is that it's the religious fanatics who don't have the common sense to treat us with the same tolerance and understanding that they are entitled to.

You people confuse "child-like" with "childish."

Child-like confidence: happy, trusting, without fear. Even if speaking of a child's mind, a child is one of the most inquisitive beings around. Either none of you have children or if you do, you've been blind to child-like confidence, which doesn't speak well of your powers of observation.

Childish: undisciplined, bad-tempered and fearful. Also, as PZ Myers illustrates so amply with surprise to the reaction of what's he done, unaware of the consequences of his actions.

Most of the mail Myers (who probably has cherry picked) has chosen to post is from people who also need to grow in maturity. But they at least have the means to do so.

But back to the credulousness of anti-Catholics, who boast of their skepticism, yet repeat urban legends with either no knowledge, or worse, a very superficial reading of the subject.

PZ Myers, after deliberately doing something you knew would be hurtful to others, you are in no position to mock anyone else's uncivility.

Since this is my last day at this address and I have lots to do before heading out, my time to respond will be very limited.

Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT @ 90: I almost choked on my coffee, thanks. That was great.

I'm surprised no one has yet commented on "liberal demonic freaks of the world" - are there liberal demonic freaks elsewhere, and can we establish contact with them?

I'm sorry, but there have been no rational arguments made by any of my Catholic correspondents in any email, so I can't post them. This is actually a fairly representative set of emails.

There are many that are more polite, that say something along the lines of "I'm offended! I will pray for you." The closest to an attempt at reasonable arguments are the ones that recite a litany of claimed eucharistic miracles -- I have heard about the "miracle of Lanciano" so many times I'm sick of it.

Anyone who cares to make a rational argument here is encouraged to do so, and to surprise me.

"Hey meatball, ever think what happens when your body dies?" Richard D'Orlando.....yes einstein, it rots just like everything else.

You people confuse "child-like" with "childish."

The actions of the Catholics involved suggest that we are not the ones who are confused.

But back to the credulousness of anti-Catholics, who boast of their skepticism, yet repeat urban legends with either no knowledge, or worse, a very superficial reading of the subject.

Which urban legends would you be referring to?

are there liberal demonic freaks elsewhere - KillerChihuahua

IIRC a commenter here, Matt Penfold, is a member of the UK's Liberal Demonic Party. I've no reason to believe he's a freak, but perhaps he could put you in touch with some?

Kevin #87...

Living in Christian Central (Colorado Springs and home to Ted H)I have to say that there is zero probability that the christers will ever extend tolerance and understanding to atheists.

If you are going to have an "us" (the god fearing bible punchers) then you must have a "them". Sort of like the lyric line "I'm in with the in crowd..." Our role as atheists, liberals, homosexuals,or whatever is to provide that sense of belonging for these poor sods.

Kevin at 87:

I believe PZ was making the point that what's considered sacred to one group of people shouldn't have to be treated as sacred by the rest -- especially when the rest believe there are more important things to believe in than superstitious mysticism.

You people confuse "child-like" with "childish."
Child-like confidence: happy, trusting, without fear. - Mary Kay

But what sort of idiot has child-like confidence in an supposed being which has repeatedly and notoriously failed to intervene to protect those it is alleged to love from the most appalling oppression and suffering?

Oh yes... a Christian!

who has to be an anti-religious bigot to sell his boring bloated juvenile books.

PZ, you have books? Where? I want to buy them right away. ;)

BTW PZ how did you get an unbroken consecrated wafer. That's the interesting bit.

Not really. Generally, the priest has one big host, which he breaks. This one gets shared with any concelebrants (fellow priests or deacons helping out in the Mass) or Eucharistic ministers (the lay people who help hand out the Jesus crackers). In a small church, some of these pieces might get shared with the congregation as well. But generally, the congregation gets smaller unbroken hosts. And since about the 1980s when it became common to receive the Eucharist in the hand, it would be ridiculously easy for anyone at a large church to surrepitiously palm the host and only pretend to eat it.

Funny related story - once when she was asked what of the world's evils saddened her the most, Mother Teresa said, "Catholics receiving the Eucharist in their hand." See, she cared more about that cracker than she did about the people dying right in front of her. What a wonderful woman - not.

Nick Gotts @ 103:
Last time I checked, the UK was part of this world. Did I miss a Dr. Who episode???

@#60:

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010523

Karen@38,

I have to admit that I was one of the "tofu and red wine = bleagh" crowd, until I read your recipe suggestion. Thanks for enlightening me. :-)

KillerChihuahua,
The UK is - but the UK's LibDems are a different matter!

Well, I had hope that "crackergate" had gone the way of the dodo and the dinosaurs...

...but I'm glad that there's still some chuckles to be had from all of it. :)

I do, however, wish to point out that since tofu takes on the flavour of whatever it is cooked with, red wine is certainly an appropriate accompaniment when it is prepared in a hot red curry, tomato, caramelized onion, or other such sauce. It's even better if you cut firm tofu into slices, dredge in seasoned flour, lightly fry until crisp and golden on the outside, then simmer in the delicious sauce of your choice. (I really like it done in the sauce intended for "Butter Chicken"... That's good eats!) However, I would suggest you serve a dry red, not a sweet one with tofu.

"Nowhere to be found in any of these letters is anything approaching a rational argument. It's all emotion, emotion emotion...baseless assertion, baseless assertion...insult, insult, insult."

This is what such people refer to as "logic."

@Mary Kay
Anti-catholic?!

You think we have time (or even the need) to focus on a specific sect of christianity? What an inefficient way to deal with religious nonsense would that be if we were to take on one sect at a time.

I hope the use of that word helps you feel more important though. I'm sure it helps getting the tools to whine louder.

for your desecration of our holy crackers we have tortured and killed two of your holy cephalopods.

sweet revenge:

http://panosz.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/lesbos080707-035.jpg

muahahaha

However, I would suggest you serve a dry red, not a sweet one with tofu.

That of course would depend on the sauce! A spicy thai chili sauce in a stir fry would be much better with a sweeter higher alcohol wine like a California Zinfindel. Low tannin wines work great with Curries.

> I got an eye opener about how to love as Jesus does in the
> way he responded to you. He let you handle him and hurt him,
> but he didn't resist. A lesson for me.

Obiously not.

The thought that Jesus didn't respond because he (Jesus) is plain and simple dead, and therefor incapable of interaction with a living human being, apparently didn't occur to him.

#13 "I think "MEATBALL" would be a nice personalized license plate, meself."
I'd go with "titty boy!!!"

It deserves to be repeated at least once more:

All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD.

Classic.

Mind if I ask what the name of that book of 'Eucharist miracles' was?

I'm curious about how wide their net is for what they call a miracle, let alone one related to a cracker. Could be a good conversation starter.

Maybe there will be a schism over the uncoordinated efforts to both damn you and save you. The lot trying to perform weird arcane rituals in order to save you gets upset with the lot that has pronounced hellfire upon you and this results in the first major schism of this century, the P-Zed Schism.

Jacob Ford is FUNNY!! I actually laughing when I'm writing this, tears down my chin.. Sitting in hell getting fatter.. "tittyboy" hahahahahahaaaaaa...

I need to get out a bit moore..

Forget the eucharist, the latest in comestible desecration is Kentucky Fried Chicken.

God repeated his loaves and fishes miracles, but this time with Kentucky Fried Chicken. Tremble before his awesome power, ye heathen.

http://charismamag.com/cms/news/archives/072908.php

"All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD"

So that's the difference between me and fundies. I've grown up and they haven't. That makes a lot of sense considering their stubbornness about not letting go of their supernatural Binky.

@ Rev. BigDumbChimp:

Hmmm, perhaps it's a matter of personal taste, then. I've always paired tofu dishes with drier wines, finding the sweet ones seem to overpower and dull the textures, mouth-wise.

Then again, I prefer the driest whites and reds I can find. The less sugar the better, I say! (My shameful secret is that I'm an Ontarian who can't stand the taste of ice wine. Blechhh! It smells divine, but the taste is just awful!)

Have you ever tried rabbit braised in dry red with some sauteed onions and mushrooms? I've also got an interesting recipe for an Italian pot roast that takes two to three bottles of red. Essentially, you make a proper ragu, browning your tomato paste the old fashioned way and instead of using water to smooth it out you use wine, then you brown your roast after which you add the remaining two bottles of wine along with garlic, onion, carrot, celery, fennel and whatever other veg you want to use up. Simmer until it's pot roast and WOW! It'll cure whatever ails you and probably everyone else in a 2 mile radius, too!

I've also got an interesting recipe for an Italian pot roast that takes two to three bottles of red.

Brasato al barolo!! One of my all time favorites.

From inkadu's story

She said after they handed out the mysterious extras, another 1,200 appeared, leaving a surplus of food

See the love of God? Not only will it give you more than you need, but it'll gladly give it to a bunch of braying morons than some starving families in the Sudan (I mean, it's only about 400-500km away!)

@128,

Whoops, make that 1,600km

@Ryan #128
Yes, but the latter are probably heathen Muslims and therefor unworthy. It's probably written down somewhere in their ridiculous book.

"How are we to believe that you actually have a consecrated host? For all we know, you've only obtained an unconsecrated wafer. You want some morons to mail you hosts, and you are going to take their word for it that these hosts have been consecrated by a Catholic priest!"

What I find enjoyable about this little rant is the unintended (but truthful) message: a consecrated host really is indistinguishable from some crumbly wafer from the store.

Well done, sir.

Some guy wrote to my local paper about the cracker incident. He called for Communion to be received on the tongue so "Anti-Catholic bigots and Satanists" couldn't steal it.

I just threw out my tofu. Actually, I fed it to the dogs. It shouldn't hurt them, they don't have souls.

pz wrote books?

pz got man boobs? pz, maybe you got some freak spying on you!!

And I thought Kim Jong-Il was a loon! Use these e-mailers as the yardstick of setting your pet dog on fire while fucking it "crazy" and Kim appears a rather reasonable fellow. I predict justice & democracy in the DPRK by next Monday.

at the end of the day the writers of this type of stuff are (as previously mentioned) for the most part at the bottom of the social ladder (im not judging, its simply a fact that there is a fucking ladder and we are all on it somewhere, nope not a bush, a big fucking ladder!)think social misfits living with bible screaming mum who still wash their balls from time to time. the problem is of course that religion makes them feel like what they say has some validity. can you imagigne the kind of life these people lead, terrified of the slightest inappropritae thought entering their head, no wonder they are screwed up. the words 'still achild' come to mind.

I think, PZed, you should forward *all* the hate mail you've received to Donahue. It might do him good to see the true nature of his troops.

I think, PZed, you should forward *all* the hate mail you've received to Donahue. It might do him good to see the true nature of his troops.

Ha! That's funny.

Donohue is as bad as any of these tools. All that will do is make him more obnoxious in his stupidity, thinking he has more support for his dumbfuckery.

I don't quite comprehend why Satan worshipers are always trying to get consecrated hosts like they are the Trix rabbit or something. They give out freely every single day to anyone who asks for one. They are not difficult to obtain.

Dan the Idiot:

For some who are atheists, the fact that meat-robots who have no soul and who are going nowhere, and yet who believe in something between birth and death - sure makes them upset...

Why bother?

Well Dan, you are consistently very stupid. I will type real slow and you will probably not get it. BTW, despite your claims of having some sort of education, you are not capable of simple logical thought. You should really go in for a neurological workup.

The fundies seek to overthrow the US government, set up a theocracy, and destroy the US while heading back to the Dark Ages. They say so often. They controlled the US for the last 8 years through the Theothuglican party, and Bushco and have nearly wrecked the country.

I never paid any attention until the xian terrorists started murdering my colleagues. But it really hit home when they started destroying my homeland. The two friends of mine dead in Iraq are just icing on the cake.

The greatest producer of atheists are humanoid toads like Robertson, Falwell, Dobson, Hagee, Rushdooney, Parsley, etc. If the xians would just leave everyone else alone, they could wave their snakes around, fuck the altar boys, believe any sort of nonsense, have 10 kids while living in abject poverty, and so one and....no one would give one damn.

It's never been about religion or god. It is about politics, fascism, control, and money. If massive stupidity blends in with evil, Dan has found that spot.

Logic + Christians = Yer doin it wrong!

Posted by: BrainFromArous

Bah! What do you know? You're just a disembodied alien brain whose destiny is to be defeated by a dog and a wild-faced guy with a wiffle bat!

That's a whole lot of crazy. Kinda scary.

"Anyone who denies the existence of God just has to look around the world about him to know this just didn't happen."

What, God just didn't happen? Well, yeah, that's what we're trying to tell you.

That's syntax for you.

I don't quite comprehend why Satan worshipers are always trying to get consecrated hosts like they are the Trix rabbit or something. They give out freely every single day to anyone who asks for one. They are not difficult to obtain.

The proof of the existence of satanists and satan worshippers is about same as the proof for Bigfoot or lepruchuans. LeVoys "satanic" church is atheist, they don't believe in god, or satan either.

The satanist thing is just primitive superstition. In the middle ages, the church burned to death tens of thousands of alleged witches. It was then found that witchcraft and witches didn't really exist. Then they went on to the Jews stealing xian babies to use their blood in Hebrew rituals. Now it is satanists stealing crackers and professors serving tofu with red wine.

Kseniya:

Yup. What a racket. "It only works when you shut off your mind." Brilliant!

I'm thinking of going into business selling special icepicks Faith Enhancement Devices, along with instructions: "During moments of doubt, apply sharply to forehead."

Posted by: Dan

LOL!

Buckeye Hamburger:

Brothers and sisters, the prophet D'Orlando has delivered unto us the Good News that PZ Myers, whom we held for an ordinary mortal, is in truth a part of the body of The Noodly One, and therefore Most Holy.

I've never understood why catholics don't embrace fsmism, where the deity is pretransubstantiated . And microwavable.

I dunno.

Mebbe these Christo-wackos are on to something. If a guy eats enough tofu, what with its soy phytoestrogens and all, gynecomastia, "man-tits" for the laity, might indeed be the result. Laissez le bon temp rouler!

Just a thought. Cheers!

"All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD"

Ah yes - believe like children. Don't question, because Father knows!

Why else would priests insist on being called "Father X"?
Puts you right in your place. What effing, institutionalized arrogance!

"Clearly you're mad at God for making you such a fatass who has the intelligence of a 14 year old."

Who happens to be a fully qualified scientist and has tenure at a university? Doubtful.

"who has to be an anti-religious bigot to sell his boring bloated juvenile books."

PZ has published books? Where? I want to read them!

"..probably can't get a date with a decent woman"

Which is why PZ is married and has children. Of course.

"you must live in a trailer park."

On the wages of a university professor? Doubtful.

While it was hard to get past the man-boob references, I think it distracted us from this little nugget:

"Enjoy your pathetic lonely life...find God if you want to be happy before you die!

Seriously though..."

WHEW!! I guess Jacob wasn't serious after all...

@ Dutch Delight #115

You think we have time (or even the need) to focus on a specific sect of christianity? What an inefficient way to deal with religious nonsense would that be if we were to take on one sect at a time.

That reminds me of a good line from Carlin, with much the same sentiment:

Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into separate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for fine distinctions. I'm busy screaming at people.

Nice change using the small "cranky guy" cartoon as a bullet instead of the big one behind the text that you used to use. Makes things much more readable.

@#96, pumpkin wine. You might have to make it yourself. Check out Jack Keller's winemaking site: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
(motto: if it doesn't move, ferment it.)
Pumpkin wine recipe: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/reques53.asp

My guess is that pumpkin wine probably sounds a lot better than it actually is though (though I've not tried it, so that is a guess.) There isn't much sugar in pumpkins (compared to grapes) and you need a lot of sugar to make wine, so any recipe for making pumpkin wine is going to call for a lot of sugar to be added in some form or other.

My guess is that pumpkin wine probably sounds a lot better than it actually is - SteveC

Seriously? It sounds absolutely vile to me!

Ranson, that Carlin quote is gold.

I like the idea of a hell with only man-tits burning, but nothing else. I just think it's a nice image.

Dan, #68 ...meat-robots....

*snicker*

There is something very, very funny about that. Now I wish I choose that as my nom-de-guerre.

I can only dream that one day I will receive such enjoyable hate mail. I've only gotten one so far, but I hope that at least before my college career is over, I might earn a few more.

The Great Editor revealeth unto me, and commandeth it to be postedeth (sic):
All education and knowledge is MADE meaningless and worthless BY a childlike confidence in superstitions.

There. Fixed.

These people just get dumber and dumber.

I was surprised there were Christians who were such big fans of your man boobs.

I think we should set up debates among these fine intellectual specimens. Suggested topics:

1. Is PZ an ivory tower, wine and tofu-eating leftist intellectual, or trailer park trash?

2. Is PZ a coward hiding behind his cyberpistol, or is he so courageous that he openly defies an omnipotent, easily angered deity in whom he secretly, deep down, believes?

Oh man. For some reason I found it hilarious that he called you a meatball. I've been snickering all day, even during a phonetics lecture.

Meatball?

"Negative, I am a meat popsicle."

methinks the missive-scribblers protest too much.

Um, as a Satanist, I'd like to point out that the reason we steal consecrated wafers and use them in evil Satanic rites is NOT because we think they're the body of Christ.

Rather, it's because we like to make nutty Christians go batshit crazy.

Same reason why we do anything, really.

Screechy Monkey, good idea!

3. Is PZ a host-desecrating Jew or a Catholic-persecuting Nazi?

Mary Kay:

You people confuse "child-like" with "childish." // Child-like confidence: happy, trusting, without fear. Even if speaking of a child's mind, a child is one of the most inquisitive beings around. Either none of you have children or if you do, you've been blind to child-like confidence, which doesn't speak well of your powers of observation.

Generalize much?

Anyway, whether you're aware of it or not, you're quote-mining. Here. Let me repeat it one more time, in case you missed it:

Remember this pin head, All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD. Evidently your parents failed miserably instilling this in you when you were still uncorrupted by the liberal demonic freaks of the world.

Got that? All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless. Do you agree with the statement quoted above?

a child is one of the most inquisitive beings around.

My kitten begs to differ, but... never mind that. ;-)

You're right, of course, but I believe you're confusing (or conflating) inquisitiveness with skepticism. Surely you know they are not synonymous. An inquisitive child asks questions, and with child-like confidence, believes just about anything his father or mother (or older sibling, or aunt or uncle, or teacher, or clergyman) tells him.

This is why children believe, for example, in Santa Claus, despite the extreme unlikelihood of jolly old St. Nick's existence. Eventually, even the most credulous children develop enough critical thinking skills to work through the problem and conclude that Santa Claus is bunk. Nice bunk, warm and cheerful bunk, present-delivering bunk - but still bunk.

A good number (though by not means all) of these children will subsequently grow up and, as adults, will apply those same critical thinking skills to the problems of theistic belief systems, and will conclude that they're all bunk. Comforting bunk, fear-of-death-assuaging bunk - but still bunk.

Furthermore, your appeal to inquisitiveness in the context of the quote under discussion is a little ironic. "Evidently your parents failed miserably instilling this in you when you were still uncorrupted by the liberal demonic freaks of the world." Translation: "Evidently your parents failed to properly indoctrinate you." I serious doubt that the author of that vitriolic, unreasoned, and poorly-written statement thinks inquisitively about his faith. Do you agree?

I appreciate many of the child-like traits I see in my friends, in many of my elders, and those I exhibit myself. I certainly do not appreciate the childish traits that nearly everyone, myself include, exhibits from time to time but which are part and parcel of any human being. I am grown up enough to know the difference. Apparently, so are you, Mary Kay, but it's important to know the practical limits of where child-like confidence in authority figures - particularly those whose very existence is purely a matter of faith - can take us. What do you think those limits are?

[Regarding the quote under discussion, I must add that I certainly will "remember this pin head." Heh.]

3. Is PZ a host-desecrating Jew or a Catholic-persecuting Nazi?

why choose?

surely the morons who put together "Expelled" will decide on combining the two into:

PZ is a Nazi Jew!

*rolleyes*

(+)

"During moments of doubt, apply sharply to forehead."

ahhh, so that's what that "Head On" product REALLY is that has those damn irritating commercials.

"Head On! Apply directly to the forehead."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_SwD7RveNE

(for those that haven't actually seen them; it's no joke, that's a real commercial)

If Andrew Dice Clay was a Christian comedian:

"Enjoy your pathetic lonely life...find God if you want to be happy before you die! Badda BANG! Badda BING!
Seriously though... I had my monstrance up this chic's ass..."

As a self-designated representative of the rational deist segment, I apologize for the theistic idiocy. Would that I could convince other believers that faith doesn't have to equate to stupidity...

The world needs fewer Champions For God, and more Curious Skeptics.

Okay, I knew that someone had actually tried the "infinite number of monkeys with keyboards" experiment (although he used chimps, not monkeys and couldn't afford an infinite number of them). I had no idea that they were sending the results to PZ.

@#60:
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010523

Oh, so it's a literary reference. I see.

I know I am not alone in this, but the thing that amazes me most about these depressing morons (and they do depress me: try as I might, I cannot find them amusing ... perhaps because there are so many of them, and so on) is their belief that a deity worth worshipping would require defense of any kind.

Right: this entity created the universe single-handedly, but needs someone to spring to his assistance if he gets called a name.

To such defensiveness points to a deep insecurity, an unacknowledged uncertainty, on the part of anyone who displays it. I should think a person secure in his/her faith would have no need of screaming.

We sub human pagan savages need to join together and form a club or a school ... maybe something along the lines of "Sub Human University of The Ungodly Pagan Savages" or SHUT UPS for short! :-) When the xtians start their ranting, we can just show them our school sweatshirts... of course, there is no telling how many of them will be more interested in the man tits *under* the sweatshirt!

Well hell, looks like I have to disguise myself as a fundie to get PZ to read my emails.

Scott Reich wrote:

I don't hate you. In fact, when you did that, I realized that I was seeing Jesus' sufferings all over again: the mocking, the contempt,the diabolical hatred, the torture and awful death. I know he didn't die again, but I could witness his sufferings again in what you did.

All of this whining about the "suffering" of an immortal creature sickens me. What is the point of this? If Jesus is real, how can he be hurt by the abuse that was piled on him. And please, no not use the mystery of Jesus being both man and god; the god self is beyond the harm that humans can do.

And just how is the "suffering" of Jesus in anyway beyond the suffering of real people who going through great pain before they die, be it from illness or from being tortured by our fellow humans? And this suffering has happening every day since living creatures first developed nervous systems.

This blathering about the "suffering" Jesus is an insult to all of the suffering everywhere. If there was no Jesus, people are more concerned the fictional suffering then real suffering. If there was a Jesus, this suffering could no more cause him harm than a newborn baby could cause me harm.

For me, this is just an other example of how religion is able to twist about real human concerns. Functioning humans are concerned about the suffering of others. It takes christianity to make this concern worthless.

Satanists have books that talk when you open them

I have a birthday card that plays a recorded message when you open it. At least, it did until the battery ran out. Does Satan work for Hallmark?

-jcr

@#60:
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010523

Oh, so it's a literary reference. I see.

In an internal network that lies behind a router. That's why it starts with 127. The 0.0.1 part is explained by the fact that such networks tend to contain very few computers.

Umm, in fact this isn't correct. 127.0.0.1 = localhost. Its the IP used to identify "only" what is on your own machine. It doesn't matter how many systems are on a network, the machine you are physically sitting in front of will respond to 127.0.0.1 as its IP. Now, systems on an "internal" network, which may include you own ISP if you have router, then your internal IPs are likely to be 192.168.0.X, where 100 is usually the first machine in the system. A wide area type, such as an ISPs cable modem network, or the like, are 10.80.0.X. This means they are all part of the same basic network. You can test that by using tracert to look at what, usually, the first or second address is in the list, or by typing in a random one and seeing if some moron is running an open web page, and the ISP is too stupid to "prevent" people in their own network from having direct, unblocked, routing to every other person on the internal net. (Yes, some ISPs are this stupid...) Usually, someone's real IP, as far as the internet is concerned, is either only accessible from the net itself (some dialups), or listed using specialized commands.

So, yeah, getting what 127.0.0.1 is wrong is a bit lame, thinking that it is your gateway IP, which the internet uses to talk to you, makes one seriously wonder how the person found the power switch on the computer. lol

Remember this pin head, All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD.
And there's the rub: child-like confidence. Isn't that the same confidence that had most of us at some point in our lives believing in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, monsters in the closet, and even believing someone actually disappeared and reappeared during a game of Peek-a-Boo?

Technically Kagehi the 10.0.80.x network is a Class A private network as well (same as 192.168.x.x except 192.168.x.x is Class C) and wouldn't be your public IP address on cable modem (if that is what you were saying??). If you were saying it could be the internal IP address for the cable company to ID your modem on their WAN, then yes but any of the below addressing schemes "could" work. Class A having the most addresses and again would be likely in your scenario if it like the second I mentioned above.

As per RFC 1918

Class A 10.0.0.0 - 10.255.255.255
Class B 172.16.0.0 - 172.31.255.255
Class C 192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.255

Like you were saying, these are all private IP address that you will never see as a public IP address.

This of course is all going to get even more interesting once we are all on IPv6.

127.0.0.1 is localhost

John C. Randolph says:
Does Satan work for Hallmark?

Yes! And it was his idea to make gay marriage greeting cards, the naughty devil.

Meatball Myers, I love it. The only downside is that you'll have to change your theme song from Highway To Hell to Inka Dinka Doo by the Swedish Chef. *grin*

It would be amusing if some noob thought he could ping [127.0.0.1] to death, though. Heh.

Not a ping to death, but at least one nitwit apparently has essentially thought that, http://www.electric-escape.net/node/1475

"white leftist scum"

". . .the Son of God isn't a cracker - you are. You must live in a trailer park."

Some of your correspondents seem to be offended that you're not a person of color. I wonder why?

PZ sells books now?

Ryan F. Stello #121

If you are still here, try this link.

http://indefenseofthecross.com/Eucharistic_miracles.htm

Google search for Bleeding Host has other sites.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Bleeding+host&ie…

"All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD."

Huh. Interesting. So I need to give my faculties over to a vaporware dictator in order to learn how to use the meeting setup software at work...? I only know how to brush my teeth because of a god? A god granted me my degree?

Who knew.

I'd honestly love to see Mr. D'Orlando verify his claim. I'm guessing his answer would generate some very hackable logic.

Well the replies are interesting, they are basically trying to come down to PZ's level of being critical of issues in which he disagrees with. But one of the replies was right, the wafer in which PZ destroyed wasn't Christ believed by Catholics in the mass. There would have been a considerable uproar than what PZ experienced before if he had taken a wafer which had experienced the celebration of the mass. You know the part where the Priest says certain words and claims the wafer turned into Christ's body. That's when Catholics believe (not me) the wafer is really God.

There would have been a considerable uproar than what PZ experienced before if he had taken a wafer which had experienced the celebration of the mass.

LOL

you're funny.

he's calling you fat because Ann Coulter said people have to go into rehab for using the word 'fag'. So I guess 'fat' is the new 'fag' for small brained idiots to attempt to demean people.

It amazes me how immature these people are. I mean, believing in invisible sky faeries aside, do they honestly believe that emailing you and calling you names or threatening your life is going to suddenly make you become Christian? Has that ever worked in the history of humanity? Generally when someone pulls that kinda crap on me it doesn't make me suddenly embrace their side of the 'controversy'. I either ignore them, laugh at them or bounce their head off a few walls.

Perhaps the mindset of sheep is a little different.

#176 - Bernard Quartermass - There you have the goddists cornered. Ask them why their god needs human defenders and they will come up with the most idiotic reasons you've ever heard.

It might be worth pointing out that PZ's Conservapedia article claims that he "backed down" on his threat to desecrate a host. If that's not Schlafly revisionism, it's certainly that of one of his more moronic minions.

God does not exist, and P.Z. Meyers is his prophet!

Well, it's comforting to know that the Religious Right does not have monopoly on stupidity. If the atheists take it on themselves to desecrate religious symbols, than don't come bitchin' to me when the Bushies repeal the First Amendment and send y'all to re-education camps to learn the mercies of Jesus and the Heavenly Host.

'Cos you nutjobs deserve it.

Well, it's comforting to know that the Religious Right does not have monopoly on stupidity. If the atheists take it on themselves to desecrate religious symbols, than don't come bitchin' to me when the Bushies repeal the First Amendment and send y'all to re-education camps to learn the mercies of Jesus and the Heavenly Host.

'Cos you nutjobs deserve it.

Poe?

'Cos you nutjobs deserve it.

will you be a gate guard at the re-education camp?

Perhaps this will be the "investment in infrastructure" we've been waiting for to stimulate the economy.

...or maybe you're just a complete moron.

...or maybe you're just a complete moron.

All signs point to yes.

Ask them why their god needs human defenders and they will come up with the most idiotic reasons you've ever heard.

Hasn't happened yet. The explanations, I mean.

I've pointed out several times that god the Dad once got mildly annoyed with humans, flooded the earth with miles of water, killed 99% of all species, and left 8 people alive. If people didn't like god's merciful genocide, he would force them to eat their kids (Leviticus 26:29).

Jesus the cracker can't even defend himself from a middle aged professor weilding a rusty nail. Can't turn him into a frog, or even call 911 or get a lawyer and sue.

Looks like gods get old and feeble too. Or maybe they just got bored with their demented, brain dead followers (easy to imagine) and aren't paying attention anymore.

Poor body of Christ getting that nail pushed through him... so mean.

I find it remarkable that D'Orlando seems to associate red wine with a "filthy life steeped in disgraceful living." Don't Catholics partake of red wine during Communion?

BTW, where do I sign up to join the liberal demonic freaks of the world?

kevin the wimp:

If the atheists take it on themselves to desecrate religious symbols, than don't come bitchin' to me when the Bushies repeal the First Amendment and send y'all to re-education camps to learn the mercies of Jesus and the Heavenly Host.

'Cos you nutjobs deserve it.

Oh Cthulhu, is that the best you can do. Where is all the hate and murderous rage. Tom Willis a few days agon threatened to round up evolutionists, make them wear a symbol, and kill them all in death camps.

Try again. You need to get in touch with your inner god-given genocidal hate and express your mass murdering xian feelings. Otherwise your buddies will start wondering why you don't have a girl friend or something and you might find yourself in the Falwell reeducation camp for "those" people.

re: my IP address is 127.0.0.1

in other words, it's localhost

Another cracker for the trash.

Kevin, Why does your gawd need Bushco to lock us up in a concentration camp? Doesn't gawd have the power to smite us all right here, right now? How about turning me into a pillar of salt? Let's see your gawd get me Kevin.

You know the part where the Priest says certain words and claims the wafer turned into Christ's body. That's when Catholics believe (not me) the wafer is really God.

You must have missed that video of the guy actually taking the cracker during a mass. It's on youtube and a previous post before PZ stabbed it.

Man tits. That's exactly the reason I don't eat tofu. rb

Michael (#193) -- i guess you missed the video evidence that the wafer in question had indeed been consecrated before it was sent to PZ

in other news, i've been re-watching Dogma in preparation for my Halloween costume (Cardinal Glick, Carlin's character) and one of the Catholocism WOW! posters apparantly has a picture of a communion wafer with the tagline "Eat me". i need to get that on a pin!

Raven @ #203:
Looks like gods get old and feeble too.

http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/diminishing-skills.html

:-)

@191,

Thanks for that! Unfortunately, it shows just how dull and lifeless Eucharistic miracles are. All 7 of them.

So much for being a conversation starter...

"He let you handle him and hurt him, but he didn't resist. A lesson for me. I hope you will let him in one day."

Is it just me or are all these god-bots terribly obsessed with fucking/being fucked by this "Christ" character?

Kevin @ 199 jeebus and the heavenly ghost. Are you delirious or just batshit insane? You and your insane moron brethen actually believe that the whole population on this planet swallows that cesspit derangement without question, and yet you cannot get this imaginary god of yours to come down and kick the crap out of us who know better. You moron; can't you see that you are not only insane and useless, but your phony god is more so. Come on, call down this imaginary asshole of yours and flatten us. Man, if I was a supreme being and one of my creations said that about me, he'll know soon enough who he's dealing with! Let's see your god and it's imaginary powers. If it does not appear, then we will have to blame you for making an asshole out of it and you. Aaahh!

#191 - Ugh! You should have posted a gross out warning with that cracker thing. Yuck.

The hilarious thing is that you wingnuts don't realize that I'm not a godiot. I do not believe in God. I believe that the people who believe in God are entitled to tolerance, tolerance that includes understanding that when you desecrate a host or what appears to be a host, you invite the Religious Right to launch a campaign from hell against us. And those of you who don't think they are already on a campaign from hell are advised to get out from underneath that rock and smell the coffee.

Now many of you have no values beyond the zeroes in your bank accounts. But some of you can think, and some of you should be able to see that those who do not tolerate religion have surrendered the high ground to those who will use it as a weapon to send us to the stake. And don't say it can't happen here, 'cos we're not all that different from Nuremberg.

@217. Hmm, concern trolls are even more concerned.

Those of us who think and who want to secure toleration from the Religious Right - Kevin

Seriously, Kevin, assuming for a moment you really are an atheist as you claim, do you really think the religious right are going to turn all tolerant if everyone tries to avoid offending them as you suggest?

Kevin @ 217 Come on, you are as much an atheist as I am a religionist! I read that post carefully and it in no way infers that you are a nonbeliever, a word I prefer to use rather than atheist which will never be used to describe your status. Your capitalization of the word god and the almost joyful discription of us being sent to the re-education camps to learn the mercies of jeebus and the heavenly ghost", confirms your status as a godmonger. Come on, be truthful, for we would rather deal with an outright religionist than a phony atheist or nonbeliever. Come clean Kevin, or off to that re-education camp you go!

Tolerance for religious idiocy! Have you been out of the basement even once in the last 50 years?

one of the things about christians that I find funny is the whole devil satan thing.
forget the connection as a symbol to other long dead bronze age religions and all. It is that "he" is supposed to the great lier full of deceit so what would be the greatest lie?
I am god! in fact the whole story of the bible old and new would be this lie. So how could you be ever be able to tell the difference between the lie and "god's truth". whith faith of course! ? believe the lies?

Kevin @ 217:
So, what you're saying is, that you are an atheist, you're just a cowardly one who's afraid of what the religious will do if we get them mad.

I'd love to see PZ print a lucid, sincere letter condemning his actions ... and then respond to it.

Why? He's already written post after post explaining his position and actions. I don't see how reiterating those points in a different format would matter.

That would be far preferable to his continuing to shoot fish in a barrel

It's in the archives. Don't blame PZ for your laziness. I don't mind him posting some brain candy from time to time, especially when he's extra busy.

Poor body of Christ getting that nail pushed through him... so mean.

heh.

"And those of you who don't think they are already on a campaign from hell are advised to get out from underneath that rock and smell the coffee."

M'kay, but are "intolerant" people like us supposed to stop because 1) "it's nicer" or because 2) _you're_ afraid of this "campaign from hell" or 3) because you think WE should wake up and be afraid? Or some combination thereof?

I for one am not afraid. Depressed, yes; disillusioned, yes; bemused, yes. But afraid? No.

From now on:
"May you have a long and filthy life steeped in disgraceful living."
Is going to be my signature line on my e-mails.
It's perfect!

Now many of you have no values beyond the zeroes in your bank accounts.

what if I don't have a bank account?

I guess I don't even get that far with the morals thing, eh?

Can't believe you haven't wholeheartedly apologised for ruining a sacred biscuit and then converted to all religions, just to be on the safe side, PZ.

Very persuasive stuff you're getting mailed.

"Now many of you have no values beyond the zeroes in your bank accounts."

The grammatical-logical murk of this thing-that-wanted-to-be-a-sentence aside, I seem to recall a certain incident with moneychangers in a temple that many contemporary "Christians" seem to have conveniently forgotten.

Of course I do acknowledge that people who don't live 100% for the dollar are persona non grata in this very Christian culture. "Blessed are the poor," indeed.

Chiroptera - feel free to use "meat-robot" anytime....

Kevin - I think you make some good points....

Raven - I'm not too happy with this administration either & guess what, in case you don't remember - Bush's own church (the Methodists were against the war in Iraq, as were the Catholics - the pope condemned it, the bishops condemned it, etc)

Okay, so many here are atheists, but it wouldn't hurt to learn what believers believe. Also, and this is an important point - not all believers believe in an anthropomorphic deity. Many are too humble for that, and figure God HAS to be different from mankind.

BINGO!!! uh... what do I win?

PZ wrote:

"I'm sorry, but there have been no rational arguments made by any of my Catholic correspondents in any email, so I can't post them. This is actually a fairly representative set of emails.

There are many that are more polite, that say something along the lines of "I'm offended! I will pray for you." The closest to an attempt at reasonable arguments are the ones that recite a litany of claimed eucharistic miracles -- I have heard about the "miracle of Lanciano" so many times I'm sick of it.

Anyone who cares to make a rational argument here is encouraged to do so, and to surprise me."

PZ, I am sorry to hear that. You have my sympathies in having to wade through such nonsense - not to mention the outright threats.

And, as I posted here back in the original thread on the matter, I'll defend you without hesitation on 1st Amendment/Free Speech grounds.

That said, there's a world of difference between getting a pile of loony critical email versus believing that only loons could or would be critical. That's not what you're saying, is it?

Andrew Sullivan - not one of my favorite bloggers, btw - posted this comment from a priest...

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/07/religious-…

It is a straightforward, rational response and criticism; no theistic presuppositions or mysticism required. No threats. No ad hominem. No special pleading.

Unicorns have a horn and Pegasus has wings. What's your point?
By the way, almost all of us atheists were believers at one point. But we gave up childish things.

PZ, reading even a few of these strange diatribes every day can't be good for you.
The christianist mind rot is spread thru repetition.

Thnx for the account of your trip to the Galapagos.

Robin #94

Any wine is easy to make. You need water and yeast at least. Add anything (that will not kill the yeast) and let it ferment. Filter, bottle and drink. You may want to wait a year or so for it to mellow out.

P.Z. how is this for a rational argument:

Both the believers and non-believers feel that the other side is influencing the culture in a negative way.

Most believers and non-believers feel that the other side is impervious to arguments.

So therefore reasonable arguments don't work, and name calling won't work.

So how about just being a nice example of tolerance for the other side. (I mean each side)

There you go again Dan. Assuming that the atheists here don't know what you christers believe. We know Dan. Give that up. It figures that you would congratulate Kevin for being a slimy little coward. Turning the other cheek, how cute.

Okay, so many here are atheists, but it wouldn't hurt to learn what believers believe

yes, because of course no believer has ever come here to try and set us straight.

*yawn*

Wow Dan. Just give up and be nice?

Fuck that.

Dan @ 231 When are you going to comprehend that we know what you mindless godbats believe? Do we have to lambast it to you with every comment you unwisely make? I don't want to learn anything that smacks of nonsense or religion as I already know it to my interminable irritation. What do you know about Astronomy, Geography, Architecture, Music and all the other real and worthwhile disciplines. What the hell is worth knowing about the mindless crap you espouse incessantly? Give up, as you will just be talking to the wind as you do with your imaginary god.

There are many that are more polite, that say something along the lines of "I'm offended! I will pray for you."

oh?

what makes you think those are the polite ones?

I think you miss the implicit "fuck you" in the translation of "I will pray for you".

Wow Dan. Just give up and be nice?

mind if I...

"Dan, just give up."

there, I think that works better.

Most believers and non-believers feel that the other side is impervious to arguments.

So therefore reasonable arguments don't work...

Non sequitur. Whatever anyone feels about the matter, no class of persons is composed exclusively of members who are actually "impervious to arguments."

Therefore, reasonable arguments sometimes work.

As an empirical matter, you will find many among the atheist and agnostic ranks who were once devout believers.

Kevin @217,
"The hilarious thing is that you wingnuts don't realize that I'm not a godiot. I do not believe in God. I believe that the people who believe in God are entitled to tolerance, tolerance that includes understanding that when you desecrate a host or what appears to be a host, you invite the Religious Right to launch a campaign from hell against us. And those of you who don't think they are already on a campaign from hell are advised to get out from underneath that rock and smell the coffee."
Kevin, Kevin, Kevin... for a couple of seconds, I really thought you may have a valid point there. But then you utterly ruined it with that silly and snarky remark about our bank accounts. And I still haven't figured out WTF that reference to Nürnberg, er, Nuremburg was all about.
Care to enlighten me? You'll have to hurry, though, because I have to go to work in a few minutes and add some zeroes to my bank account.

Therefore, reasonable arguments sometimes work.

and when they don't, there's always ridicule.

"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them."

-Thomas Jefferson*

*yeah, I know I really like that quote.

Funny Ichthyic!
*yawn*

How about a Dan, blah blah blah...

How about a Dan, blah blah blah...

I think Jeff has copyrights to that response.

;)

this suffering could no more cause him harm than a newborn baby could cause me harm.

Less, in fact. You ever put your pinky finger in a newborn's mouth? The suction hurts! :-)

Gosh you guys are just too nice and tolerant!

Two comologists are debating about the singularity that occured just prior to the Big-Bang (theory brought to you by a PRIEST) One says to the other, "Gee I wonder if there might be a reason that the singularity occured...." The second one says, "You a freakin' moron, a troll, an idiot, a stinking pile of crap for daring to even suggest that there might be a reason. Everyone intelligent knows that it just is, what it is, because it is....."

By the way, Kevin says that he's an atheist and he's attacked anyway.... Why can't he be in your club? It must be awfully exclusive.

Gosh you guys are just too nice and tolerant!

Gee wiz and by golly, gomer!

why not take your sandbox and go home then?

Why can't he be in your club?

well, there lies your problem.
there ain't no club.

Dan @ 237 No, no tolerance for intolerable morons. You will be accompanying Kevin to the re-education camps to learn the mercies of jeebus and manufacture crackers for the intolerable insane masses so that they can transmogrifry the masses into cretinous crackers. Had enough? If not, we are only too eager to accomodate you with a smothering slather of ridicule in lieu of crackers.

Wow Dan. I think if it's two cosmologist" debating they would be using science and not navel gazing.

We're all open to debate here. You just don't put up anything worth debating.

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I have lots of first-hand experience with 192.168.x.x <sigh>...

Not a ping to death, but at least one nitwit apparently has essentially thought that, http://www.electric-escape.net/node/1475

ROTFL! My day is saved. :-)

Oh, and Mr Sugar too, but not too much as 17% vino is...strong

Dan @ everywhere: Every time you think you weaken the nation.

Dan, that's a really bad example. There's lots of science being done about the Big Bang. For example, quantum theory -- Heisenberg's uncertainty relation, to be precise -- implies there cannot be any singularities at all. Go look up brane theory, cosmological natural selection, eternal inflation, and a couple more...

(Just spend a few hours in Wikipedia.)

"There are no sects in geometry."
-- Voltaire

Guess what the context of that quote is.

Yea, he sure does! Too bad he spends most of his time playing with that damn demon of his. :)

Oh, and Kevin, one more thing: "(...)people who believe in God are entitled to tolerance(...)", well, of course they are. I don't really think you'll find anyone here on Pharyngula who would actually promote violence against believers or forcibly keep them from worshipping whatever deity they choose to believe in. Ah, now that I come to think of it, believers better stayed away from Holbach, because he can be very... outspoken sometimes.
What PZ does, and what most of us here do, is ridicule people with outlandish beliefs. If someone claims there is a supernatural megapower who rules the whole universe, they'd better come up with some VERY good and scientifically testable evidence for that claim. And if they can't do that, they're clowns. I do not have too much respect for clowns; they even frighten me a bit.
Now as (I think it was) Raven said, these clowns have taken the last remaining superpower on Earth, the US of A, as their hostage. Or as their bitch, if you prefer that kinda language. They have started a devastating war, and they are actively illegalizing education.
I'm not sure why I even care; I'm not even American. But I love the US, and I just cannot idly watch when Christian fundies take over and try to bomb the whole fucking world to Armageddon.
So, to put it in a nutshell, yes, I do tolerate the christian faith. But no, I will not tolerate them when they rise to power.

"Your a third rate professor at a second rate school."You are an overachiever PZ!

Every time you think you weaken the nation.

LOL

oh, don't tell me you just made that up?

Son: "Dad I think there might be God somewhere..."

Father: "No son, there isn't any such thing as a god"

Son: "but dad, I really, really, believe. I am convinced that God exsists - even though I don't have a really good concept."

Father: "No son, what you call "thinking" is just electro-chemical processes going on in your brain."

Son: silent for a moment and then says: "Dad, do cars and computers "think?"

Father: "No of course not they are living."

Son: "Yes, dad, that's true, but they do have electro-chemical processes going on."

Father: "Yes son they do, but they only operate when we want them to, and they go where we make them go.... they don't have free will."

Son: "But dad, maybe they THINK they have free will, and don't know that we are driving them, or making comments on P.Z.'s blog, with them. Maybe they THINK THEY are doing these things."

Father: "Son, they don't think and don't have free will - they are just made up of matter which has interactions at a subatomic level - all according to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and Quantum mechanics, and such intellectual stuff that you wouldn't understand - it's all a bunch of electro-chemical junk that I just don't have time to discuss right now.

Son: "So dad, I guess you're going to stand there and expect me to accept that you find contentment and fulfullment in the fact that you yourself have yet to have even one act of free-will, or one thought that you could lay claim to, that wasn't what it had to be, given the chain of electro-chemical events that has occured from the begining of time?"

Father: "Go to hell son!"

Son: "I can't there is no hell, and no free act possible that could occur meriting such a punishment."

Posted by: Greg Peterson | August 26, 2008 6:23 PM

Apple-cheeked whackjob Jack Van Impe said on last week's show (see it at JVIM.com, go to Aug 20 TV show, at 18:30-19:30 minutes) that Muslims know how to protect their prophet from ridicule, then referred to how Salman Rushdie found that out the hard way by having his life threatened. He said that when people insult Mohamed, their lives are in danger, and he wishes Christians would take a similar stand. I doubt it's what he meant consciously, but by implication, Van Impe was calling for death threats against people who criticize Jesus or Christianity, to be carried out by Christians. And the show is rated "G," by the way, because, you know...wholesome religious programming.

This is a classic and routine example of why a lot of people don't bother to engage xians anymore.

Lurking near the surface is often enough a homicidal rage and they usually end up threatening to kill people. See it all the time. The difference between xian fanatics and moslem fanatics is....nothing really. The xians are torn between outrage that the moslems kill people by the hundreds of thousands (mostly other moslems BTW) and envy that they themselves only manage to murder a few here and there. So far.

And atheists are a minor segment of their To Kill lists. In times past ending a whole 8 years ago in N. Ireland, the xians hobby was massacring each other by the millions. What stopped this wasn't kill fatigue but the fact that western societies no longer allow sects to raise armies and buy tanks, fighter planes, artillery, rockets, and nukes.

"they'd better come up with some VERY good and scientifically testable evidence for that claim. And if they can't do that, they're clowns."

laughable argument.....

Try finding proof that there isn't. Try proving free-will, try proving "things" don't think.......

Son: "Dad I think there might be God somewhere..."

Father: "What makes you think that? What kind of god? Explain."

Dan, can you explain to us why a deterministic universe is incompatible with the ability to make meaningful choices and have original thoughts?

As a follow up, can you explain how the existence of an omniscient being clears up that difficulty?

I know you think you're being cute, but really, a straw-man is just as obvious when you put it in someone else's mouth. Cut the fumbling attempts at literacy, and make your feeble argument.

Father 2: "God, who watches over us, knows everything"

Son 2: "Does he know what will happen to us in the future, too?"

Father 2: "Of course, God is not bound by time"

Son 2: "Did he already know those things before he created the universe?"

Father 2: "Of course, I said he knows everything, didn't I?"

Son 2: "So how is it meaningful to say that I have free will, when God already knew what my every thought and every action was going to be before He created the universe?"

Father 2:"It's a mystery!"

Son 2: "Does God have free will?"

Father 2:"..."

acj - Now you shouldn't say such things about Holbach! He's actually a big lovable fuzzball, just like PZ. ;) Charles Manson with a chainsaw does buzz through sometimes under the name Truth Machine.

"Those of us who think and who want to secure toleration from the Nazis" - Jewish Kevin

Dan, why are you still posting here? Patricia and I have both asked you, and you have failed to give a satisfactory answer. Even saying you want to convert us would be a satisfactory answer. But you need to be honest enough with yourself to say it.
I stick around because of the science, and the trashing of various godbots, of which you appear to be one, and creationists who think they have the one true idea that will convert us all is just icing on the cake. We've heard it all many times before, and have honed our rebuttal skills. Like many of the people here I have read the bible cover to cover, and it was the beginning of my journey to no religion or god. Just too many contradictions for a rational man.
I will be believe in god as soon as some good, solid physical proof becomes available.

Dan @265: "laughable argument"
Maybe you're right. I'm a big fan of pleasant surprises, so elaborate a bit on that, will ya?
"Try finding proof that there isn't." - that there isn't... what?
"Try proving free-will, try proving 'things' don't think".
Dan, my friend, you got it all backwards. I am not the one who has to prove anything here - that's up to you.
Why do I even dignify your comment with an answer? I must be nicer than I thought. Now look... I can't prove "things" don't think. Really, I can't. And I don't want to. It's highly unlikely that they do, even less likely than that there is a god who cares about what I eat and who I have sex with. And when, and how; the only one who has a say in that is my girlfriend.
So I simply choose to not believe in thinking cars, invisible pink unicorns, and try to make sense of the world as it is. It's astonishingly beautiful and complex and confusing enough even without adding God as another unknown variable. Or absolute. You know what I mean.
As I said before, if you want to believe, go ahead, I won't stop you. And if your belief frees you from fear of death, congratulations. But please, please, don't preach to me.

Son: "Dad I think there might be God somewhere..."

Father: "Why do you think that? And what do you mean by "God?"

Son: "but dad, I really, really, believe. I am convinced that God exsists - even though I don't have a really good concept."

Father: "You can, of course, believe what you want -- but how can you be so convinced, if you don't know what it is you believe in?"

Actually, that sounds like the beginning of an interesting discussion. Atheists are not likely to terminate an interesting discussion with flat pronouncements and unquestionable assertions. That's the province of religion.

Dan, free will -- the ability to make choices consistent with one's desires -- is not only compatible with a natural universe; it requires it. We are the proximate causes of our choices, and that's where it gets important. "Ultimate causes" have never explained anything specific. We humans don't need to be an Uncaused Cause. It's fine if we fit into the deterministic stream, because we're part of it.

It's funny that this is still going on... while I'm sure every spiteful Christian who expects you to respect their beliefs has given up beef in order to respect the the Hindu beliefs, writing a constant stream of emails is not going to make the eucharist any less desecrated.

It's happened, there's nothing you can do, get over it already. Nazis are not riding dinosaurs through the streets, nothing happened. Why? Because it's just a fucking cracker!

Son: "Dad I think there might be God somewhere..."

Dan. Lay off the Chick tracts. Dude. Seriously.

acj @ 260 How right you are about being outspoken at times, but not outdone when it comes to matters of nonsense, particularly the epitomy of that crap, religion. Religionists have and will never prove that there are gods. We are not living in the dark ages anymore, though this persistent pox negates this condition and constantly wishes to drag us back into that deplorable miasma of insanity. If you wish to offer your proof that your imaginary god exists, then you have better give concrete and tangible evidence for its existence and be prepared to suffer an onslaught of abject rationalism and extreme ridicule. I don't have to do the same on my part to you, as the onus is all on your side to prove that your imaginary gods exist. That word "imaginary" is such a useful and demanding condition to tempt the religionists to offer all manner of nonsense as proof that their imaginary god exists. There's that word again, so foreceful in it's own right and might!

Father: "Go to hell son!"

why would the father, who so thoughtfully pointed out the lack of existence of any deities, tell his son to go to someplace that was imagined by a deity-based religion?

seriously Dan, if this is what you consider a "reflective" conversation, I think maybe you need to have more conversations with yourself.

...and don't bother us with them.

Dan. Lay off the Chick tracts. Dude. Seriously.

LOL

that would explain a lot, come to think of it.

"Now look... I can't prove "things" don't think. Really, I can't. And I don't want to."

acj, this sounds as if you have 'faith' that things don't think.... at the sub-atomic level everything pretty much look/acts the same... so there does'n seem any reason to believe that any larger more complex arrangement of these particles would be 'thinking' -- at least not without proof... elseways this is bordering on 'faith' which is a big no no as it could lead to more discoveries of small 'faiths' in other concepts that we hold dear....

such as 'free-will' -- where in heck does THAT come from given that physics and mathematics and chemistry (at the sub-atomic level it all blends together) can show how one event leads to another in a chain of causation.

Sastra believes in free-will and says: "Dan, free will -- the ability to make choices consistent with one's desires -- is not only compatible with a natural universe; it requires it."

But I say that those pesky desires come from hormones and low-blood sugar....

Also, to those who ask me why I here - it's fun! and besides God makes me!

Dan @ 279 Your god makes you, eh Dan? And your deranged brain makes you utter nonsensical crap, or does your god do that? Evolution or your imaginary god; you can't choose both, but you have shown with your consistent insane drivel that your phony god has chosen for you, at least that's what your unhinged brain fantasizes this to be true. Whether you like it or not, evolution is the deciding factor of your developmental outcome; your brain is your own, to metasticise to rot on your own accord, thereby rendering you to a life of derangement and useless futulity. Is your god to blame for this? You can't blame evolution because you don't believe in this reality, even when it goes awry and produces a product like you, imaginary gods and all. Are you still lucid after this evaluation, or are you pining for more denunciations?

Holbach, I leave it to your judgement, you've been here longer than I have. Has there ever been a troll as stupid as Dan on this blog?
Gawd makes him be here...
I'm done with Dan.

Son: "Dad, what is God like?"

Father: "Well, I can tell you what he's not like. God isn't male or female, God isn't black or white, God isn't straight or gay."

Son: "You mean Michael Jackson is God?"

such as 'free-will' -- where in heck does THAT come from given that physics and mathematics and chemistry (at the sub-atomic level it all blends together) can show how one event leads to another in a chain of causation.

So are the laws of physics suspended in your brain, or how exactly does your free will allow you to escape causality?

Patricia @ 281 There have been dolts to the equal of Dan, but lucky for us they have been spaced out, in the time designation that is, and so do not overwhelm the posts and comments with useless and insane drivel, otherwise we would be hard put to batter down their drivel with the force of words at the expense of more serious and worthwhile posts. We seem to be commenting more on religious nonsense at the expense of science subjects, but we have to counteract this crap to let them know they will not overrun reason with insane drivel. One good aspect of this bantering back and forth is that it hones one's responses to that insane crap, especially if you are vehemently opposed to religion as I am. I am unequivocal in my detestation of all religions and am ready and able to project as much. Perhaps Dan will tire of being relegated to a level below slime mold and move on to those sites that welcome his brand of insanity. So Dan, seriously ponder and consider a change of venue as you will only further your rapidly depletion of brain cells, not only to think lucidly, but eventually becoming incoherent to the point of total derangement. More?

As someone who has not yet had enough practice in "throwing dead cats into the sanctuaries" (Mencken), I would personally like to thank Holbach for moving the Overton window of mockery. Can you kick it up a notch? BAM!

this sounds as if you have 'faith' that things don't think.... at the sub-atomic level everything pretty much look/acts the same.

Dan, don't anthropomorphize things.

They hate that.

so there does'n seem any reason to believe that any larger more complex arrangement of these particles would be 'thinking' -- at least not without proof

You mean... like thinking human beings? That sort of evidence?

such as 'free-will' -- where in heck does THAT come from given that physics and mathematics and chemistry (at the sub-atomic level it all blends together) can show how one event leads to another in a chain of causation.

The answer to that is more complicated than it looks. But it still does not lead to the answer "Therefore, God must exist", or even "Therefore, God might exist", regardless of whether it comes down to the universe being ultimately deterministic, or ultimately non-deterministic.

But I say that those pesky desires come from hormones and low-blood sugar....

So you're saying you're just a puppet, dancing to the strings pulled by the state of your brain, resulting from contingent causes?

Also, to those who ask me why I here - it's fun!

Sigh. Better than mugging old ladies, I suppose.

and besides God makes me!

So you're saying we should pray for God to knock it off?

Son: "Dad, I'm not sure if I want to be an atheist anymore!"

Father: "Shut up and finish your puppy!"

Son: "But I love puppies!"

Father: "Nonsense! We are atheists and we don't believe in love! And I already told you to call me Parental Unit One!"

Son: "But Dad, this is not right! Our whole family is made out of straw!"

"But Dad, this is not right! Our whole family is made out of straw!"

perfect.

Dan #279 wrote:

But I say that those pesky desires come from hormones and low-blood sugar....

They're part of the mix, of course. Or does your mind hover outside of your brain and body, unaffected by what goes on in the material plane?

Are you arguing for Vitalism?

They used to believe that molecules in motion could never be "alive" without some special force coming into matter in order to animate it. They also used to wonder how fire got into objects, and where the speed of an object went when it stopped. Your arguments are coming close to sounding like ancient beliefs in "essences."

As it turned out, they weren't needed.

celebration of the mass

I've been to lots of Masses, and not once has it ever felt like any sort of celebration.

#284 - Holbach - OK, you're a better soldier than I. *grin*

Bring your god on Dan. He's forcing you to be here? How? Is he standing in your parents basement beside you?
I defy you Dan. Show me your god. I'll take any of the biblical representations of him. Gawd stopped the movement of the Sun once, have him do it again. Worshipping gawd will be easy for me. All he has to do is show up.
Anything Dan? Unicorns Dan? The bible tells us so.

Son: "Dad, does God know everything?"
Father: "Yes, God knows everything"
Son: "So did God know that Abraham would be willing to sacrifice his God to prove his faith?"
Father: "Yes, God knew that before the beginning of time"
Son: "Then why did God make Abraham go through that ordeal when he already knew the answer?"
Father: "The lord works in mysterious ways"
...
Son: "If God knew everything, did he know that mankind would eat from the tree of knowledge?"
Father: "Yes, he knows everything"
Son: "So mankind was already condemned from the beginning?"
Father: "No, we comitted original sin"
Son: "But surely God could have..."
Father: "No, because without the fall, there would be no need for Jesus"
...
Son: "So if God knew everything, he knew that Jesus would die on the cross?"
Father: "Yes, it was all part of God's plan"
Son: "So was Judas doing God's work?"
Father: "No, Judas was doing the devil's work"
Son: "But if Jesus was going to be crucified for all mankind, then wasn't Judas part of that plan?"
Father: "Judas was evil, end of story."

[dedicated to the fall-guy of history, the single most important man in the Jesus legend]

Lee Picton @ 285 Ah, my man H L Mencken! I have been to his house in Baltimore, and only wish I had been around to meet him. Have been with him many times in print and reveled in his denunciations of all manner of delusional crap. I wish he was sitting with me as I post this stuff, and adding his own brand of vitriolic comments to the likes we encounter on this site. Mockery, you say? Dead cats and all, I'm sure H L would approve of my comments.

"You people confuse "child-like" with "childish."

So what? If I were to have any relationship with God, I'd like it to be an adult one, built on mutual respect earned. Befitting of the fact that I am, you know, an adult.

"I've been to lots of Masses, and not once has it ever felt like any sort of celebration."

Oh, I'm sure Bill from the "cracker in context" thread could tell you all about that. Except that I gave him every opportunity to, and he didn't. I'm still rather disappointed about that.

It is rather funny how they go off like that sometimes. Like you're not sure whether they are really thinking through every word they say. From one of the letters above: "they know the consecrated Host is the real presence of Christ, Body, Soul, Blood and Divinity." That noun string at the end sure was weird, wasn't it? Magic words.

As for Dan, I think we should all just leave him to the company of the voices in his head.

and besides God makes me!

So God invented free will just so he could prevent you from using it.

That totally sounds like the sort of dickish thing the Biblical God would do.

Come on people! Lighten up! Anybody who starts a letter with "Hey meatball" can't be all bad!

Hey, this reminds me of a joke:

There's the flood, see, and this guy has to climb on his roof to avoid the rushing water. He prays to God to save him.

(Stay with me now.)

Guy in a boat comes...

(I said stay with me now!)

...says, "Hey climb on in."

(Are you still with me?)

Guy on the roof says, "No thanks, God will save me."

Guy in the boat says, "Suit yourself, dumbass."

To make a long story short, this happens like three more times until the water is up to the guy's neck. He ends up drowning.

The end.

(I had to do it.)

@Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT: classes don't mean much anymore, thanks to CIDR and VLSM. When one refers to a class C, one means a /24, but you could easily allocate 192.168.x.x as a /16.

Time for me to toddle off to watch 'House' on idiot television. *sigh*
Good night sweethearts!

Oh yea, one last comment -
Good night MEATBALL!

@Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT: classes don't mean much anymore, thanks to CIDR and VLSM. When one refers to a class C, one means a /24, but you could easily allocate 192.168.x.x as a /16.M

True, but my oldschool ass still thinks of the three address ranges that way because I learned them that way.

Also, to those who ask me why I here - it's fun! and besides God makes me!

Well, evidence that god, if there is one, is a complete fucking dumb ass.

Tofu and red wine? Blech!!!!!!!! Of course having a soy allergy I can't understand why anyone would adulterate good red wine with tofu.

personally, i think scott reich should get some credit: he seemed to be moving in the direction of understanding that keeping his religion to himself and letting the rest of us worry about ours is the thing to do.

that IS what jesus would do, after all.

defectiverobot, I love that. I actually hadnt heard that variation. Let me try my hand at completely redoing a parable.

"One night I dreamed a dream. Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life. For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand, one belonging to me and one to my Lord.

When the last scene of my life shot before me I looked back at the footprints in the sand. There was only one set of footprints. I realized that this was at the lowest and saddest times of my life. This always bothered me and I questioned the Lord about my dilemma.

"Lord, You told me when I decided to follow You, You would walk and talk with me all the way. But I'm aware that during the most troublesome times of my life there is only one set of footprints. I just don't understand why, when I need You most, You leave me."

He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you, never, ever, during your trials and testings. When you saw only one set of footprints, it was then that I had left you to watch non-believers, homosexuals, liberals, suicide victims, and babies of questionable parentage burn in the hot flames of Hell, licked by the hot tongues of their dark lord Satan himself."

Dan the Death-cult troll @ #237:

Both the believers and non-believers feel that the other side is influencing the culture in a negative way.

I'm not sure if it's due to stupidity or dishonesty, but you left out a few things:

1. The non-believers actually have EVIDENCE to support such claims. There have been documented instances of fraud, discrimination, bigotry, political manipulation, attacks on science, even outright MURDER, RAPE, and TERRORISM carried out by believers, acting in the name of their imaginary gods.
2. The believers not only don't have any evidence of their own, they flee in abject terror from the very thought of it. Instead, they just make shit up.

Do we dare to hope for a "Best of" anthology? :D

Only if God performs a miracle when you begin your abuse would we know, and if that happens, you'd better start begging for mercy, clown.

Did anyone else upon reading this picture this in their head like that scene from Deliverance?

You know what The Winslow would say about the cracker incident?

"Hi!!!"

Because, y'know, that's all The Winslow ever says. All Hail The Winslow!

http://www.airshipentertainment.com/buckcomic.php?date=20080318

This makes me so unbelievably sad that anyone could say such hateful things to another human being, especially when that person claims to be a person of faith. As a Christian, I am appauled by this man's actions. Just because you don't agree, doesn't give you the right to be so mean.

s a Christian, I am appauled by this man's actions. Just because you don't agree, doesn't give you the right to be so mean.

don't worry too much.

PZ is laughing, not crying.

note he didn't once refer to the email spammers as "mean".

This makes me so unbelievably sad that anyone could say such hateful things to another human being, especially when that person claims to be a person of faith. As a Christian, I am appauled by this man's actions. Just because you don't agree, doesn't give you the right to be so mean.

Your sentences are constructed so ambiguously that it is hard to tell who you mean by "you", and what it is that makes you sad. Oh, and the word "appauled" is more usually spelled "appalled".

"Evolution or your imaginary god; you can't choose both..."

Amazing that someone actually believes this! Of course on can have both. The universe could have been created to act according to certain laws that can be discovered through scientific reasoning.

Where have I actually suggested that Theists DONT let their concepts of God lead them to perform bad actions. It does happen... Human beings tend to be pretty lousy to eachother.

I have suggested, however, that better thinking and teaching concerning religion (including conceptualizing God) would go a long way to addressing some of the concerns about the "religidiots" expressed here.

I don't think "stupid humans" is evidence for "No God."

I also find it amazing that in a blog that is/has repeatedly posted articles concerning "topics of interest" to people with faith that anyone would be surprised when some show up. (and I like science - I am soon to be off to the lab myself) Kevin was accused of being a coward, but all I can say is that if you posters wanted a blog to post on where all of you could just pat eachother on the back and agree with eachother and didn't ever want someone with a different view to challenge you - well that's fairly cowardly.

Imagine a blog that promotes racism, or homophobia, that can handle when the 'enemy' shows up. Without the 'enemy,' things would be boring - don't you think?

So many of these comments could be made into very funny tee shirts.

Imagine a blog that promotes racism, or homophobia, that can handle when the 'enemy' shows up. Without the 'enemy,' things would be boring - don't you think?

Bad analogy Dan. Someone's race or sexuality are not a choice. Being critical of a religion in not even in the same league as being a racist or being homophobic.

I don't hate Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc. but I sure as hell am critical of their silly beliefs.

in = is

Dan #313 wrote:

Without the 'enemy,' things would be boring - don't you think?

You're not the enemy -- you're the loyal opposition. ;)

I enjoy reading your posts. Sometimes you make good points, and from what I can tell you're always on topic and express views we're likely to run across, and so we should be able to respond coherently to them.

I have suggested, however, that better thinking and teaching concerning religion (including conceptualizing God) would go a long way to addressing some of the concerns about the "religidiots" expressed here.

The more religion gets mixed up with a humanistic approach to living and learning, the more reasonable it becomes. The more metaphorical, abstract, and obscure God becomes, the more reasonable religion gets. The problem I think is that the "faith" mindset doesn't conform itself very well to any rules of this sort. There has to be a critical difference between religion and a wise secular philosophy, or they merge, and people notice that it's not special knowledge any more, set apart from the world.

Superstitions can be harmless and benign, or they can lead to genocide. It's a bit hard to try to take away their teeth by "better thinking and teaching," so that people can separate the true superstitions from the false ones.

Listen to green day, nirvana, etc., in the background when reading (I have an affinity to read "outloud") - the original EMs and the subsequent comments. It is more delicious, and as an added bonus, my neighbors hate me even more.

...but all I can say is that if you posters wanted a blog to post on where all of you could just pat eachother on the back and agree with eachother and didn't ever want someone with a different view to challenge you - well that's fairly cowardly.

It would be great if someone challenged us. Right now you're just being a smartass and evading discussion. It's not cowardly to ask someone to put up or shut up. Would you like to try to answer some questions about free will you've avoided so far?

CJO wrote:

Dan, can you explain to us why a deterministic universe is incompatible with the ability to make meaningful choices and have original thoughts?As a follow up, can you explain how the existence of an omniscient being clears up that difficulty?

I wrote:

So are the laws of physics suspended in your brain, or how exactly does your free will allow you to escape causality?

"How are we to believe that you actually have a consecrated host? For all we know, you've only obtained an unconsecrated wafer."

It's like one of those old lead-acid batteries, it just won't hold a consecration till you get it home to desecrate the damn thing. You have got to get hold of an alkaline or lithium Host, a rechargeable nickel-hydride Host would be best of all, but expensive.

Well, well, Dipshit Dan the Gawdman still at it again this morning.
Where's your gawd today Dan?

Dan @ 313 You certainly have a thick hide- and head. The head is the problem. You don't seem to be absorbing anything we slather you with. Yes, it must be the head. It is so thick, that not only will anything rational penetrate it but nothing sensible will emanate from it either. You really should have two heads: one for your imaginary god, the other for ranting denial of evolution. Then we can say, hey look, there goes Dan with his two heads, screaming at each other for dominance, but still only amounting to half a wit.

Of course on[e] can have both.

Isn't unnecessary compartmentalization wonderful?

It's just like saying:

Of course I can play baseball with a cast on!

hell, I might even get good at it with enough practice.

the point is, why bother deliberately handicapping yourself to begin with?

Where's your gawd today Dan?

On his shoulder, forcing him to post here, IIRC.

My problem with religious faith (if you have data then faith is superfluous) is this: It is the invocation of magic. If magic is allowed into a discussion, then NOTHING useful (true) can result from that discussion. This is because, if magic is allowed, then ANY effect can be asserted to follow ANY cause without any fact-checking to discriminate false causality. The rules of logic and evidence fail and nothing useful can be derived -- only funny stories.

Magic explains NOTHING.

Hey Big Dumb Chimp.... I am not so certain that faith is always a choice.... There is after all the story of Saul/Paul and his conversion experience...

Thank You very much Sastra for your kind words. I thought that people who get such a kick out of trashing others for their faiths and beliefs would see the irony in my attempts to get them to "prove" their "faith" in such beliefs as free-will, or the common belief that only "higher-complex" "living" organisms such as Homo sapiens, or maybe even cephalopods have anything like 'thought' going on. And just what is it with "thought" -- is it a kind of 'soul-thing' that hangs around the brain tissue?

But they seem too caught up in wanting to taunt that they have missed the point - so much for the supreme intellect.

Anyway you mean people have me crying like this guy here:
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o74/Lustbites/swaggart_621.jpg

So I just might take my crucifix and holy water and leave.

Well probably not....

I thought that people who get such a kick out of trashing others for their faiths and beliefs would see the irony in my attempts to get them to "prove" their "faith" in such beliefs as free-will, or the common belief that only "higher-complex" "living" organisms such as Homo sapiens, or maybe even cephalopods have anything like 'thought' going on. And just what is it with "thought" -- is it a kind of 'soul-thing' that hangs around the brain tissue? - Dan

WTF is this idiot trying to say here? Anyone know? Sastra, you seem to have some insight into his thought processes. No Dan, I'm not asking you - I know you'll just produce another helping of your clever-clever spew.

And just what is it with "thought" -- is it a kind of 'soul-thing' that hangs around the brain tissue?

Yeah, jeez, Idunno. Do let us know when you have one, though.

I am not so certain that faith [personal ideology] is always a choice

with that modification, I would agree.

many of us have decried the endless attempts at childhood cult indoctrination undertaken by the xian brigade.

some folks never manage to recover fully from it, even after they have become atheists.

as to paul...

you wan't to use a potentially fictional (and certainly inscrutable) account to try and make a lucid point?

epic fail.

wan't

stick that in your pipe and smoke it, RBDC.

;)

Thank You very much Sastra for your kind words.

ever consider she's just trying to get you to stick around 'cause she enjoys watching you bleed?

That Sastra, such a sadist.

;)

Holbach, your ignorance is showing! I have never denied the theory of evolution! I believe in evolution. I was trying to make you guys understand that not all believers find difficulty in scientific theories.....

Your prejudice is just too blinding to that magnificent intellect that you seem to think that you possess.

I thought that people who get such a kick out of trashing others for their faiths and beliefs would see the irony in my attempts to get them to "prove" their "faith" in such beliefs as free-will

Who says that we have faith in any such thing? It is you who have been yakking on about free will. How is the question of free will any easier for believers?

Hey Nick!

I'm ROFPIT!

Dan, are you aware your ignorance shows any time you try to presume god without being able to supply physical evidence of one? Have you any evidence you care to share? Otherwise, Occam's razor says the simplest explaination is the best. Why posit a god, when removing any reference to god from a explanation does not change the explanation. God is a null concept.

I was trying to make you guys understand that not all believers find difficulty in scientific theories.....

I thought you were trying to show us how open-minded you were?

so open minded, in fact, that...

well, you finish it.

Dan, Pulling out your invisible friend in mixed company is vulgar.

Nick Gotts #327 wrote:

I thought that people who get such a kick out of trashing others for their faiths and beliefs would see the irony in my attempts to get them to "prove" their "faith" in such beliefs as free-will, or the common belief that only "higher-complex" "living" organisms such as Homo sapiens, or maybe even cephalopods have anything like 'thought' going on. And just what is it with "thought" -- is it a kind of 'soul-thing' that hangs around the brain tissue? - Dan

WTF is this idiot trying to say here? Anyone know? Sastra, you seem to have some insight into his thought processes.

I don't know -- I think Dan is making several points. First, that it's not so easy to "prove" any belief to someone who is going to be a stickler about everything; and, second, that all beliefs have an element of faith to them.

I can agree with both those points, but I don't think they go anywhere, or give anything to the argument for the existence of God -- or the existence of ESP, mind/body substance dualism, or whether trees can think. They're academic, not practical.

Hey Big Dumb Chimp.... I am not so certain that faith is always a choice.... There is after all the story of Saul/Paul and his conversion experience...

That's assuming those stories are actually true. In practice today everyone has a choice. The consequences of a choice may be dangerous but you have a choice to believe.

Yeah... there you go Sastra. I'm sure Nick will be thankful for your clarification.

And Big Dumb Chimp..... If "free-will" can't be proven and must therefore be discarded as a belief/faith ---- THEN, those who believe DON'T have a choice!

Do you follow the logic?

ROFPIT (i made it up - it means "rolling on floor praying in tongues - but you can't use it! it's only for us christian computer geeks)

Some scientist -- I think it might have been Skinner -- once wrote something to the effect that "A theory does not change what the theory is about."

A theory which claims that free-will is technically an "illusion" would have no practical implications on how and whether we make choices.

Dan, I haven't been able to follow any of your logic, but that is due to the false premises your logic runs under. If god doesn't exist, free will is a given. If he exists, it is up to you to prove that he/she/it exists with some physical evidence before you go any further in your logic. If you can't prove the premise, all subsequent logic is flawed.

If "free-will" can't be proven and must therefore be discarded as a belief/faith ---- THEN, those who believe DON'T have a choice!

Given that belief is something that is demonstrably variable over time -- that is, an individual can go from the ignorant state of infancy, to fervent belief as a child and young adult, which belief can then degrade to doubt, then to a more active skepticism, then to agnosticism, and then finally to atheism, I think it would be more correct to point out that belief is neither exactly a free choice, nor a necessarily deterministic result, but is rather dependent on a person's awareness, education, and life experiences, of which the most important is almost certainly the willingness to honestly examine the epistemological basis of their own religious beliefs.

ROFPIT (i made it up - it means "rolling on floor praying in tongues - but you can't use it! it's only for us christian computer geeks)

Here's a prayer-in-tongues for you:

OWA TABU BIYAM

Repeat it many times, and you shall be enlightened.

Dan, You rube, what happened to Saul/Paul in the road was a frontal lobe seizure. Go to YouTube and check out V.S. Ramachandran (clip 2) at Beyond Belief '06. You'll learn what a foolish ass you are and where your idiot gawd is.
Now clean up all your piles and go get educated. Toad!

Generally Dan just doesn't want us to criticize people's beliefs. He feels that since he's rational part of the time and accepts most science that his beliefs should get respect or at least a pass. He also seems to pat himself on the back for having his superstitions. As if we're the closed minded people who have no idea what religion is about.

It's boring.

Now clean up all your piles and go get educated. Toad!

HEY!!

[scowl]

Patricia | August 27, 2008 7:27 PM, #344

Dan, You rube, what happened to Saul/Paul in the road was a frontal lobe seizure

That seems to fit the account. I suppose it's hard to know for sure, but that might well go down as the most disastrous brainstorm in history. It's possible that without Paul's influence the whole Christianity thing might have fizzled early.

I particularly liked this part of Reich's pseudo-apology:

I got an eye opener about how to love as Jesus does in the way he responded to you. He let you handle him and hurt him, but he didn't resist. A lesson for me. I hope you will let him in one day. He exists.

Besides the oddly sexual language, this interpretation has the characteristic "whatever doesn't confirm your faith only makes it stronger" bias. If the cracker resists, it's a miracle and the Christian's faith is reinforced. If the cracker doesn't resist, it reveals the true nature of Jesus, and the Christian's faith is reinforced. Brilliant!

Yup, Etha, that's the pattern. The same one-size-fits-all logical duality applies to everything from kidnapped wafers to life and death. Anything that can be explained in terms of God reinforces the belief in a living God. Anything that cannot explained in terms of God reinforces the belief that the living God is inscrutable.

Nice to see you, BTW. :-)

Owlmirror says: "Given that belief is something that is demonstrably variable over time -- that is, an individual can go from the ignorant state......"

To a more enlightened view, right?

Huh... If I change 'belief' to 'science' it seems to me that Owlmirror has failed to prove anything...

I was trying to make you guys understand that not all believers find difficulty in scientific theories - Dan

I'm sure we're all very grateful to Dan - since of course none of us have ever heard of Ken Miller, or Simon Conway Morris, or Francis Collins, or...

Sastra - thanks, you managed to smoke Dan out. That was the most obvious interpretation, but I found it impossible to be sure through his forest of scare-quotes - these things work best when used in moderation, Dan. By the way, appeal to the possibility of that sort of dogmatic scepticism won't fly. The belief that most animals don't have anything much like thought in human beings is well-founded, in evidence of how they behave and how their nervous systems are structured. The belief in gods, on the other hand, is entirely unfounded, and in the case of the supposedly benevolent and omnipotent Abrahamic god, contrary to obvious facts about the nature of the world.

Thought, consciousness and free will are all completely compatible with naturalism. I recommend an intensive course of Dennett: Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Freedom Evolves and Consciousness Explained, probably best read in that order, which is not the order they were written in. Of course your religious dogmatism will severely impede your understanding at first, but keep trying, Dan, keep trying.

And Big Dumb Chimp..... If "free-will" can't be proven and must therefore be discarded as a belief/faith ---- THEN, those who believe DON'T have a choice!

Dan your logic is suspect. You are working from some strange idea about free will that frankly doesn't seem very stable. If a god like the one in the christian mythology existed, that would automatically destroy the notion of free will. Since that possibility is unsupported by anything other than peoples emotional ties to tradition and a need for "something bigger" that points to the existence of free will or at least doesn't take away from it. Hand waving explanations like we don't have free will because of our chemical reactions are really pretty weak and seem more like an attempt to obfuscate the subject. If our chemical reactions play a part in our decision making, they are our chemical reactions.

You haven't established that free-will can not be proven and so the rest of your statement above is garbage. Even if free will couldn't be proven that does not mean it is faith. Honestly that is just confusing. Free-will is not the opposite of faith. You are setting up some strange false dichotomy.

Everyone has a choice in what they believe. Granted some choices are harder because of how they were raised but they still have a choice. So to bring this full circle, your analogy above...

Imagine a blog that promotes racism, or homophobia, that can handle when the 'enemy' shows up. Without the 'enemy,' things would be boring - don't you think?

...that prompted me to comment, is bad. You claiming that there is no way to prove free will so therefore it is faith is not only cortex meltingly confused but is a false dichotomy and argument from ignorance.

Being a racist, sexist or homophobe is not the same as being critical of a religion. It just is not by any stretch of reasonable logic.

"All education and knowledge is meaningless and worthless without a CHILD LIKE CONFIDENCE IN GOD."

The extra space makes me want to say this like it's awful meme text on a photo of some kid, 4chan-style: "CHILD LIEK CONFIDENCE IN GOD!"

I just think it's funny, is all.

Owlmirror says: "Given that belief is something that is demonstrably variable over time -- that is, an individual can go from the ignorant state......"

To a more enlightened view, right?

You said it.

Huh... If I change 'belief' to 'science' it seems to me that Owlmirror has failed to prove anything...

But you cannot change "belief" to "science" in the statement that I wrote. Belief is all about the absence of knowledge; science is the presence of knowledge.

Owlmirror science has demonstrated repeatedly that its' theories change over time. The theories are demonstrably variable over time. Look at how the thories of the universe changed over time. Religious thought has changed too. I am doubt that Jesus ever thought that he was founding a new religion & just look how buddhism, and jainism grew out of hinduism. So both religious thought and scientific thought evolves over time.

And you know, I have been incredibly shocked by the attacks that I have gotten from the very beginning - yeah I know, I attacked back. When I was in college studying Biology and Philosophy, argument was a part of the experience. And frankly the part that I enjoyed the most was about free-will, and consciousness. I found the double-slit experiment with light very interesting, I was hoping to challenge some of your deeply held beliefs, because to me one has to have "faith" in the religion of atheism.

There is much that humans do not know, and to act as though we know it all is presumptive.

Sure, I'm a crotchety old Catholic, and subject to bad temper, but at least I was willing to get down in the trenches with you. Anyway, apologies to all that I may have hurt.

Peace to all & God Bless!

(ha, too late! by the time you read this He will have blessed you!)

There is much that humans do not know, and to act as though we know it all is presumptive.

What on earth gives you the idea that anyone thinks we know it all?

Dan, when are you going to present some hard, physical evidence for your god? Without your god, you have no religion. Without proof of god, you easily fall prey to lies and delusions. We don't appreciate it when you come here and try to spread your delusions without being able to back them up with good proof.

I thought I told you kids not to play around in these old abandoned threads.

Too many trolls lurking about.

to me one has to have "faith" in the religion of atheism.

This statement, more than many others, always strikes me as being a big huge sign that says "I DON'T KNOW WHAT ATHEISM IS." If you say this, it means you haven't grasped the very very simple concept. Why does a person think he or she can be persuasive if the person doesn't even understand what he or she is arguing against?

to me one has to have "faith" in the religion of atheism. - Dan

But Dan, we've heard this particular piece of bilge so many times we're sick of it. Did you really think it was something new? Also, most of us here regard the Catholic Church as a spectacularly vile organisation, with a long and bloody history of persecution and intolerance; responsibility for millions of recent deaths from Aids and unwanted pregnancies and a large-scale cover-up of child sexual abuse by its priests; and a very active hatred of women, gays and anyone who dares criticise it. That doesn't mean we (at least some of us) can't enjoy cordial arguments with individual Catholics - but in your case, as far as I can discover you started with the following (August 19, on the thread "Although, to be honest, it isn't that hard to do":

P.Z., this comment seems to me to reflect a gloating immaturity on your part that is hardly worthy of a professional or a scientist. Hooray for you - you are so superior!

Maybe this was the way you used to begin college arguments, but after such a start, can you actually complain about being attacked in response? Every one of your comments in that thread was, in fact, a sneer.

On August 25, in the thread "will we ever stop running...", you posted the following deeply unpleasant comment - actually one of the nastiest I've seen here:

Hey people get some life experience. Volunteer in some homeless shelters, go vist a childrens hospital and watch the little ones trying to be brave for the sake of their parents. Try working night shift in a convenience store right in the 'projects' just to put yourself through college. Spend several years among drug addicts and watch a few die, and a few manage to dig themselves out. Hey, this would be politically correct - visit Walter Reed hospital and snicker at the loss of faces, limbs, and pieces of brain matter that the young men and women have lost. Tell them they are so stupid, since they lost it for nothing. Try telling the guy that feels completely spiritually and emotionally shattered because he knows that he killed a bunch of humans and maybe children that he shouldn't bother worrying since there isn't any God anyway.

Proud of that one, Dan?

Owlmirror science has demonstrated repeatedly that its' theories change over time. The theories are demonstrably variable over time. Look at how the thories of the universe changed over time.

Right. That's what learning is. A change from less knowledge to more knowledge; from ignorance and often faith-based guesswork to better, evidence-based — real-world-experience-based — knowledge.

Religious thought has changed too.

Oddly enough, it has not changed with more knowledge of what God is.

The argument from design, in its most basic form, is ancient. And it still remains an argument from ignorance.

You might try reading Doubt, by Jennifer Michael Hecht.

Don't listen to him PZ. I like your man boobs.

You might try reading Doubt, by Jennifer Michael Hecht.

Seconded.

Dan @ #356

I was hoping to challenge some of your deeply held beliefs, because to me one has to have "faith" in the religion of atheism.

No you don't have "faith" in the "religion of atheism". Atheism is rather the label given to an empiricist's standpoint with respect to the unsubstantiated fact-claim about the existence of a deity.