Rats.
Everyone's blogging about all the studies showing (as if it needed to be shown yet again) that vitamin supplementation is not necessary for most people, nor does it decrease the risk of heart disease or cancer, and I can't, at least not yet. Why not? Because my friggin' university doesn't subscribe to the Annals of Internal Medicine! I know! Can you believe it? And, you, my regular readers, know that I never blog a study (or three studies) without having the actual studies in front of me. Abstracts alone, as I've shown time and time again, can be deceiving. So, until one of my partners in crime elsewhere sends me copies of the articles, I'm kind of stuck. [ADDENDUM: I got them overnight.]
Fortunately, even though I hate to be left out of this party, even if for a day or two, there's always plenty more blogging material out there. It's even appropriate, given how recently I wrote about the politics of the antivaccine movement, and how antivaccine quackery is the quackery that knows little in the way of political boundaries, with both sides being prone to antivaccine ideas. True, the right and the left seem to come to their antivaccine ideas from different directions. For example, lefty antivaccinationists tend to come to their views from crunchy beliefs in an idealized concept of what is "natural" and in "natural healing" combined with a major distrust of big business, in particular big pharma. In contrast, righty antivaccinationists tend to come to it through the idea of "health freedom," in which anything resembling government coercion is to be resisted and any attempt to regulate medicine is viewed with suspicion. Besides, after experiencing such an awesome lovefest from my readers due to my belated mention of my ninth blogiversary, it's time for some Insolence again that's likely to tick off someone at least. Orac just can't handle such universal niceness for long. This post is likely to fix that for some, while others will pump their fists and shout, "Hell, yes!" Which are you? Let's find out.
It all started, as it not too infrequently does, when post over at that happy home for wanderingly daft antivaccinationists, the Age of Autism caught my eye a couple of days ago. (Yes, I know it's a bad idea to expose my neurons to such neuron-apoptosing nonsense as the regular content of AoA, but it is at times a convenient source of blog material and my neurons are hardened from years of regular exposure.) It was by a contributor of whom I had never heard before named Adriana Gamondes, entitled Libertarian Backlash against Reason Magazine’s “Corporatist,” “Pseudolibertarian” Compulsory Vaccine Campaign. In particular, Mrs. Gamondes is touting an article published at a website of which I had never heard before, Police State USA. Actually, I must just not have remembered her, because she's definitely contributed to AoA before on several occasions. Indeed, her "work," such as it is, rivals the looniest of the crew at AoA for sheer brain death (of both the writer and the reader, alas). She fits right in, given that according to this post from 2009 she is "the mother of twins who are currently recovering from vaccine-induced GI disorders."
What's interesting is this passage from Gamondes:
Age of Autism is a politically agnostic forum but not apolitical. To quote Herman Melville, “There seems no reason why serviceable truth should keep cloistered because not partisan.” There are rare exceptions to unilateral mainstream news compliance with government demands that critical views of vaccines be censored. PSUSA has done an elegant job ignoring the memo and explaining why compulsory medicine cannot be legitimately argued from a liberty position.
Except that I would argue that AoA is not exactly politically agnostic. After all, several of its members are prominent in the Canary Party, an antivaccine organization that advocates against vaccines, to the point of buying off politicians and lobbying. Fortunately, it has not had a lot of success thus far, but it keeps trying. It also has forged ties with at least one Tea Party-affiliated group in California. Heck, Mike Adams even endorsed them. In other words, AoA tends to lean right, towards the Libertarian end of the spectrum, and Gamondes' likes rhetoric that could have been written by Mikey himself.
But first, let's take a look at what set Police State USA off. It's an article from a couple of weeks ago by Ronald Bailey over at Reason Magazine entitled Refusing Vaccination Puts Others At Risk: A pragmatic argument for coercive vaccination. Now, believe it or not, I actually read Reason. I used to read it more regularly, but then my politics drifted away from that direction, to the point where reading that magazine would actually annoy me. However, this particular article by Bailey actually made sense. Basically, he claims that Libertarianism is not a justification for putting others at risk:
There would be no argument against allowing people to refuse vaccination if they and their families would suffer alone the consequences of their foolhardiness. It would be their right to forego misery-reducing and life-preserving treatments. But that is not the case in the real world.
Correct, and that's what those of us who promote vaccination have been saying all along. Indeed, we've been pointing out that antivaccinationists endanger everyone because they promote the degradation of herd immunity. Bailey agrees, and he dutifully discusses the Project Tycho, which, as I pointed out, shows how well vaccines have worked over the last century. He also debunks some common antivaccine talking points, such as the highly intellectually dishonest trope that "vaccines didn't save us," while listing how much children owe to vaccines, including the newer ones that antivaccinationists like to dump on, such as the rotavirus vaccine and the chickenpox vaccine. Based on herd immunity, Bailey asserts (and I agree):
People who refuse vaccination for themselves and their children are free-riding off herd immunity. Anti-vaccination folks are taking advantage of the fact that most people around them have chosen the minimal risk of vaccination, thus acting as a firewall protecting them from disease. But if enough refuse, the firewall comes down and other people get hurt.
Oliver Wendell Holmes articulated a good libertarian principle when he said, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." Holmes’ observation is particularly salient in the case of whooping cough shots.
And:
To borrow Holmes’ metaphor, people who refuse vaccination are asserting that they have a right to “swing” their microbes at other people. There is no principled libertarian case for their free-riding refusal to take responsibility for their own microbes.
I'd agree that there's no "principled Libertarian case," but that doesn't mean that there isn't a Libertarian case. It boils down to, basically, "Screw you. I don't care if my decision affects others." Come to think of it, a whole lot of Libertarianism boils down to this in actual practice, the highfalutin rhetoric of the more practical Libertarians like Bailey notwithstanding. Don't believe me? Take a look at how Police State USA puts it. First, it equates the ability to refuse vaccinations with free markets and any sort of mandated vaccination as being anathema to a free market. This is very critical to understanding this sort of thinking. Libertarianism appears to worship the free market above all. Consequently, all a Libertarian like those at PSUSA has to do to justify anything is to try to link it to the free market somehow and link what it dislikes to crushing the free market. Why? Because to this brand of Libertarianism the free market is a Good That Shall Not Be Questioned. Ever. Under any circumstances.
The other Good That Shall Never Be Questioned is utter unfettered individual rights without consideration for others. Indeed, PSUSA complains about any form of collectivism, anything that is instituted for the greatest good for the greatest number of people, specifically objecting to the use of the term "herd immunity," likening it to cattle. I'm only impressed that this anonymous writer refrained from using the word "sheeple." That would have been the perfect topper to this little screed. As it is, I'll have to amuse myself with passages like this:
The only thing more full of holes than Bailey’s doctrine is his ridiculous argument against people having “a right to swing their microbes at other people.” His implication is that the spread of germs is an initiation of force from one person against others, therefore justifying state intervention to mitigate that initiation of force. This cheapens the definition of force to an utterly ubiquitous level. A single person picks up and loses an incalculable number of microorganisms per day. This is done invisibly, without a person’s knowledge, whether he is healthy or sick, without malice, without intent, and without the ability to stop it (even if you try). No one can know how many billions of microorganisms were exchanged in a given day, nor who will be susceptible to them. No one can prove beyond reasonable doubt which person dropped which microorganism.
The stupid, it doth burn. Of course, we all carry microbes and exchange them with each other every day. However, there's a difference between just microbes and microbes that cause serious diseases that can be vaccinated against. If you can prevent endangering others with microbes that you carry or prevent your children from endangering other children by taking a simple precaution that is incredibly safe for you and your child, then why wouldn't that be an assault?
Of course, Reason readers tend to think along the same way that Police State USA thinks, namely, "Screw you! I don't care if what I do hurts you." Just take a look at the Facebook post for Bailey's article. It's peppered with comments like:
Explain how not getting a vaccination yourself puts someone else at risk. If you get sick and they are vaccinated then they won't get sick because they a vaccinated against it right? Oh, vaccinations don't actually protect against getting sick?!? Then why do we get them.
The stupid, it burns. And I do mean you, Parrish Miller, whoever you are.
And:
Herd Immunity is more Bullshit from Big Pharma with NO logic behind it!
And:
How about "I DON'T WANT TO!"? That's about as libertarian as it gets. There is no such thing as a positive obligation in libertarian philosophy and that includes an obligation to be vaccinated.
Which is as good a reason as any as to why I shucked my Libertarian tendencies. (Well, that, and my increasing realization over the last 15 years that an "unfettered" free market is not a panacea.)
Sadly, Ronald Bailey is fighting a losing battle. On vaccines, he really appears not to be in tune with his fellow Libertarians, who are all too prone to denying science when it inconveniently clashes with their worship of the free market and individual freedom above all. As I've said time and time again, the entire "health freedom" movement (a.k.a. the freedom of quacks from having the government interfere with their plying their quackery), of which the antivaccine movement is but a part, is very much at home within the Libertarian movement. Indeed, one can say that it's as pure an expression of Libertarianism as there is: Don't regulate quackery, as the free market will take care of it all (you know, much the way it did so effectively before the creation of the FDA and other regulatory agencies, with wandering snake oil salesmen and pharmaceutical companies bringing drugs to market without testing them) and no one can tell me what I can and can't put into my body (never mind whether it's based on misinformation and false claims or not). Don't require me to do anything that will benefit me and my fellow citizens, such as vaccinating. And, above all, don't discuss the delicate balance between personal liberty and what benefits and harms society. If you do, you'll get the kind of reaction that Ronald Bailey got. That's the problem that Libertarians trying to take a reasonable position with respect to medicine run into that they don't want to admit. Quackery and antivaccine views go together with Libertarianism like show trials and dictatorships. The more scientifically inclined Libertarians know that, and it bothers them. Unfortunately, they are very quickly reminded of it by their fellow Libertarians when they try to make a "principled Libertarian case" for vaccine mandates, as Ronald Bailey was.
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Alain, there is almost no cash assistance to be had in the U.S. outside of total disability and TANF ("Temporary Assistance for Needy Families"). Payments under Social Security are partially based on what one has already paid into the system. The floor for SSI, which isn't means-tested, at present, is $710 per month. SSDI can kick in some more. Lilady is really the one with the expertise on the system.
I should clarify that my friend does not suffer from blindness; this is simply an example that came to my attention a while ago.
Delysid, let's attempt a honest debate (with no personal prejudices projected onto any ideology, libertatian or otherwise).
I'll ask a couple of questions to get the ball rolling...
These are in no particular order....
Where applicable, let's assume a libertatian society you would accept.
1) You say Free Market is us, all of us, and that it is a natural state of man... What makes you think governments (from local city councils up to federal governments) also aren't naturally emergent states of being us, being together? I don't mean any particular law or statute or ideology, but I personally believe that some sort of system of governance comes naturally once the number of people coexisting exceeds some limit.
(To quote/paraphrase a known socialist Bertolt Brecht, the smallest unit in a society isn't a person, it's two persons).
2) What safeguards there would be (if any) to prevent whole towns owned and operated by large companies from forming? For example Refineryville, built next to large domestic oil fields, with schools, hospitals, restaurants and movie theatres (as well as courts, police and banking) provided by the company for the "convenience" of the work force.
And if allowed to operate, what safeguards (if any) would there be to prevent company misconduct in such a situation?
3) If insurance companies were not regulated, and there were no limits on what they could claim while advertising, how many hours would you be willing to spend selecting an insurance provider for yourself? And same for schools, banks, hospitals, restaurants et cetera? If you got a food poisoning at a restaurant and lost your job because you were absent at a crucial junction, could you sue the restaurant for restitution for both future earnings as well as the pay for the few days you were home sick as well as any medication? At whose expense would the lab tests to confirm food be made? If it turned out not to be that particular restaurant (to without reasonable doubt at least), could the restaurant sue you for damages to reputation?
4) What organization would you accept to defend against foreign military threats? In libertatian society based on voluntaryism and free market principles of liberty, do you believe there would be "market" for a trained reserve army as a deterrent (or just in case)? Or could there be enough private mercenary groups that big businesses could combine their own to add up to a force of suitable size (and organization to oppose a current, state-cordinated military force)? Or would it be the responsibility of private individuals to defend their chosen homesteads and/or free market liberties with privately owned firearms and anti-armour weaponry?
5) Who would own and maintain current US army/navy/airforce weapons and facilities? When the transit into libertatian society was complete, would the government still exist as a military command unit, or would the weapons and facilities be sold to the highest bidder or distributed among the private militia stockpiles throughout the nation? Who would have the responsibilities of maintaining, renewing and disposing the armaments, and of keeping the troops trained?
6) What if lets say governments of OPEC and uranium-mining nations decided to stop selling to such a rogue nation in the hope of suppressing such dangerous libertatian sentiments from threating their reign of power? What recourse would (eg.) Libertatian States of America have to to secure their current level or electricity? Negotiate worse deals with outside nations, invent, finance and build a whole infrastructure to tap into uranium veins and oil deposits within national borders? Or would they use military treat or force to secure supply of oil and uranium? Or let the market determine the new price of electricity so that the population can either choose to pay more for current level of convenience or to downgrade to bare essentials (or beyond in few cases)?
Thank you for your time, I'm looking forward to your answers.
@Delysid
I didn't say there aren't socialists in the UK, just not in the government. They are in parlement. I don't live in the UK, but as far as I know the parties are:
Conservatives - they are conservative
Lib-Dem's - they are liberal, not socialist. Liberals are mostly for a small government
Labour - this is the socialist party, though a ver watered down version.
I live in the Netherlands, where we have a lot of parties.
The government is a combination of liberals and socialists, which start to get les socialist everyday.
And I live on welfare. Not because I don't want a job, but I can't get one, partly thanks to discrimination. But well, that's a free society, isn't it?
I've read Delysid's comments @487 and beyond.
Delysid, you don't have a case. You have made claims that could politely be called questionable (food stamps lead to inflation? 1 in 3 USA'ians are on welfare?) and haven't provided evidence in support of them.
"Libertarianism is voluntary association. It is everywhere, all the time. Anytime you make any purchase or agree to any contract you are engaging in libertarianism."
Leaving aside the question of whether or not this is libertarianism and not something else, some associations are not voluntary. I need clean air, food and water to live, so I have to go to the shops for groceries and pay the water company.
Now, let's suppose that a local business starts polluting the atmosphere to such an extent that everyone's health starts to suffer. Also, let's suppose that most of the locals don't have the money to move out. What are they supposed to do? Or let's suppose the water company decides to cut costs by not doing enough to make the water potable. Let's also suppose that boiling the water doesn't solve the problem. What then?
Sometimes people are dishonest and greedy, and will be in a position to gouge others. We have laws and enforcement agencies for a reason. Furthermore, our actions have consequences, and often those consequences are both unintended and harmful. "Tragedy of the commons" is a real thing, despite Delysid's attempts to pretend it doesn't.
Chuff,
It's weirdly inconsistent. For example, in the UK even a child can buy a newspaper with photographs of topless women in it*, and a holiday show broadcast on free-to-air TV at peak time in the evening will happily show female breasts on a topless beach. The only time I have seen pixelated female breasts on TV was in a show in the US about European vacations, something that astonished me at the time.
Conversely, you can buy hard core pornography in a regular DVD store in most (maybe all?) states of the US, but not at all in the UK (I believe that's still the case, correct me if I'm wrong). There are other weird anomalies, like the rules about not using profanities on UK radio, yet I have heard the worst of swear words on UK TV, and from shock jocks on US radio.
* Not in every newspaper, as my favorite poet explains.
Narad,
I'm in two minds. I distrust censorship on principle, but on the other hand one might hope that parents would take responsibility for controlling what their children are doing on line, but many clearly don't.
I'm wondering how libertarians would prevent people from voluntarily forming a democratic government.
Krebiozen,
Obviously it can't be real liberty if you are not free to suppress someone else's liberties.
Ketchikan,
Not to argue with your main point, but:
- I've shopped in DVD in 4 US (as I remember) states and cannot recall seeing hard core pornography available for sale in any of them. I have been in stores that do sell what I would consider hard core pornography; they tend to be specialty stores in the areas I've shopped. It used to be that not all states allowed such stores and where I live they used to be quite controversial.
- I've not heard any profanity that I can recall on British radio in my relatively limited exposure; what I've heard on British TV includes many words that would result in a fine for the station if they were on US radio, shock jock or not.
Krebiozen - and sorry for spell check's mangling of your 'nym.
Although I really shouldn't start this...BUT
I do seem to recall ( or have read somewhere perhaps**) that less regulated markets may lead to odd situations like
WHAT HAPPENED in 2008...
In fact, curiously weren't many of the instruments of control*** of the markets, as well as regulations, first and foremost, REACTIONS to fiscal crises, booms-and-busts, which occured in the un-regulated markets of the 19th century, as well as later reactions to a lessening of regulations more recently, and the havoc they wrought upon society worldwide?
Buying 'on margin' in the 1920s or using the markets as gaming tables in the 2000s lead to increased regulations in order to avoid catastrophic events like those of 1929 or 2008-9.
I know, I know some say that the best fix ( 2008) would be to "let the markets take care of themselves" and that the "government has no business" in the markets. Not all of us agree with that.
As my history of science prof used to remark, " Learn about the past so you don't have to go though all of that again".
** Heh.
*** some might say 'torture'
M.O.'B.,
It seems I was misinformed, though as you say my main point remains intact. It also depends on what you define as hard core, though I don't really want to get into too much indelicate detail here. I believe that despite the internet, sale of movies that are not certified by the British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) remains illegal, and even the movies the BBFC gives an R18 certificate are mild compared to the sort of thing you can find all too easily on line. Some mainstream(ish) movies have been cut here before the BBFC would certify them, the sequel to the Human Centipede for example.
Weirdly I have seen things on free-to-air UK TV that I doubt would get a BBFC certificate, especially on 'educational' programs. On one occasion on call in the path lab in the early hours of the morning, grabbing a coffee with the TV on in the tea room, I was embarrassed by an explicit depiction of an, er, Mapplethorpesque act appearing just as the young woman on call for hematology walked in. Thanks Channel 4. Thankfully she just laughed.
Me neither, the rules are very strict, for reasons I fail to understand. Yet on the stage you can get away with pretty much anything that doesn't 'outrage public decency'.
Really? I was under the impression that the likes of Howard Stern could get away with practically anything.
The whole area is, as I wrote, weirdly inconsistent.
The spellchecker mangling of my 'nym has a ring to it, I might use it as an alternative sometimes. My wife tells me she went to school with a young man from Ketchikan - for some reason Alaska keeps popping up in my life lately - it must be one of those synchronicities [Exits, singing 'There's no place like Nome'].
I was wrong.
@Krebiozen -- at the very least it's a great first line for a limerick.
There once was a lady from Ketchikan
(leaving the rest to the imagination).
There once was a lady from Ketchikan,
Who encountered a rude libertarian.
At first she would admire,
His p!ss, wind and fire,
Then saw he was nowt but a contrarian.
One night, long ago, I happened upon, airing on the local Polish UHF station, inexplicably, something that (I later realized) was visually straight out of the Jess Franco canon, including a breast being chomped in close-up during a sex scene. I don't think it was Emanuelle and the Last Cannibals, but definitely from the perpetually recut Eurosleaze horror family.
Krebiozen @ 517
Bravo!
This is effectively the same question as how a cluster of 100 Freedonian property holders manages to erect a wall to effect "banishment" of the diseased if one person objects because, oh, say, he firmly believes in "natural immunity."
Does the wall have to be elaborately constructed through the town? Who's on the hook for the construction expense and extra sentries? Surely, this fellow can't be "banished," "imma right?"
In other news, the Harrison Land Act had the federal government selling and giving away property since 1800, making Pierce's argument immediately collapse. Is the federal government now responsible for ensuring that everyone is entitled to the benefit of having a private parcel of land? "Epic explanation," indeed.
In retrospect, perhaps the holdout should be considered to be subject to the same rules as would govern if Nature herself changed the circumstances of his locale. Your well dried up? Tough cheese. Now, where, precisely does the line between force majure and glibertarian asshurt lie? Is it in human agency? Why? Where do you think all these people came from if not from Nature?
Moreover, if the answer is evasively that one cannot seek redress from Nature, then the core principle can be nothing other than "freedom" derives from money or the ability to extract the equivalent (say, in the form of forced servitude) rather than any fanciful "state of Nature."
^^ "majeure"
Late to the party, but I spent Xmas with my daughters and was too tired last night to catch up on RI.
@lilady: hope the roast was good. My mom always does them that way and they do come out rare, but I personally like my meat hotter in temperature, too.
Having never seen nor tasted lutefisk or any other items of that sort (durian for example) I refrain from commenting on that.
I have no desire to live in a libertarian dreamworld. I have little or no faith in the idea. There are too many IGMFY people out there and a free market doesn't work.
I'm also highly amused that Brave Sir Robin appears to have run away...
@ Krebiozen #517
*faxing one shiny new internets* Bravo! :)
Krebiozen: Brilliant!
@ MI Dawn: At the last minute I decided to roast the beef following my traditional recipe...for all the reasons you stated...and the unavailability of the oven to cook the other dishes on my holiday menu.
In my group, if you overdo the roast or the steaks, they never let you forget your misstep. They are ruthless :-)
Well, what do you know, an un-dirty limmerick. But good.
At any rate, we seem to have lost our opponent.
The Intellectual Lynch Mob (TM) strikes again!
And wasn't it Emily-Peg-Greg who christened us as such?
@ lilady:
I don't really cook but I like to put a turkey breast or chicken in an oven @ 600 degrees F.
It's a tandoor for white folk.
Sounds good to me, Denice.
@lilady - years ago I bought one of those counter top roasters. Mr Woo was hosting Christmas here the first time, I wasn't very sick yet, and he promised two kinds of turkey, barbecue brisket and all the trimmings. Just not enough room in one oven for that. We also bought a tabletop warmer to put all the veggies, etc., in, and used crock pots for gravy and mashed potatoes to keep them warm.
Was very happy how well it worked (and how easy it was to clean up). Not sure if you have one. I always thought of them as the purview of little old ladies at church potlucks until I got one.
I hope that all the regulars at RI celebrated (if they so chose) a special holiday this year. I know mine had some very memorable moments, and I count myself blessed.
Hope your guests were very pleased, lilady.
Best wishes,
Mrs Woo
A bit off topic -
Sadly, Mr Woo was on the internet again. He has abandoned pushing supplements at me! No, now he has decided I suffer from "intergenerational curse," and just need to be "released."
@DW
Or he's out trying to score some more hallucinogens. Actually, I think our opponent appears to have lost it once again with his "100 million Americans on welfare", a number that is apparently increasing not exponentially, but "infinitely".
Delysid should move to Galt's Gulch! I'm sure they'll need a dentist.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2013/12/libertarian-enclaves?…
Money quote:
@AdamG
The article did mention something about "dentists and chiropractors" plying their trade in some sort of "innovation center". The founder of that Randian Utopia is an altie grifter - he sells water ionizers. Delysid would be right at home.
i have several iibertarians in my fb feed (shane killian being the most high profile/informed) and not one of them has posted any anti vax nonsense; it's all been left-leaning folks who cried when obama got elected.
A bit off topic..but wanted to share with Orac
Seems the Autism is Medical crowd is back at it again
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=670163996337399&id=24985685…
I guess they didnt learn one thing with the Alex tragedy
Mito is the new "cerebral folate deficiency"
As I understand it, Mitochondrial Disorder can only be diagnosed by a muscle biopsy, correct? Now Mito is the newest buzz word. I find it insulting towards families who have loved ones suffering from this disease. When will it end?!
@ A Mom Who Can Think For Herself:
I heard about this case weeks ago and have been following it on the internet. I'm not certain if the young woman actually has an ASD diagnosis, but she was under the care of a mitochondrial specialist M.D., located in Boston and was (I believe), referred to another hospital in the Boston area, for care. Physicians at that hospital diagnosed her with a somatoform disorder (a psychological disorder where patients report symptoms that cannot be confirmed by physical findings or laboratory confirmatory testing). Those doctors also stated that she does not have a mitochondrial disorder.
http://foxct.com/local-news/investigations/stories/hospital-holds-west-…
As I understand mitochondrial disorders, there are a series of blood, urine, spinal fluid and genetics tests and some may require a fresh muscle biopsy for confirmation, which is only done in a limited number of hospital which have the laboratory technology and specialists available to do that muscle biopsy properly:
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/mitochondrial_disease/hic_myths…
Yeah, "mito disorders !!!" is the new buzz phrase among the crank anti-vaccine crowd...ever since Hannah Poling was awarded damages for encephalopathy (not autism) associated with high fevers following vaccinations.
One of the AoA regulars posted a comment at me, weeks ago, on a science blog that her grandchild's claim for vaccine damages (resulting in an ASD) was amended, once the Autism Omnibus cases failed to award claims for vaccine-induced-autism, to a claim for a mitochondrial disorder...aggravated by vaccines. She claimed that the family couldn't afford to pay for the child's muscle biopsy...for the claim to go forward in Vaccine Court. She "recovered" one grandchild and her other grandchild "is in recovery", thanks to biomedical treatments.
Given his age, I'd be quite surprised if "Delysid" had any significant experience with the real item. The Pickard bust was 13 years ago (ergocristine was scheduled in 2010). In fact, I'd be surprised if he could tell it from some random concoction being passed off as LSD, just as happened with MDMA. All signs are that domestic production is in the tank.
I don't know about the availability of the 2C's, but I doubt they're widespread. Impressively, there was an STP (DOM) seizure at a Canadian maximum security prison a few weeks ago. Given that mushroom growing has been simplified to levels that don't require the wits to culture in a Petri dish, they should always be within reach.
I would enjoy watching him trying to choke down some San Pedro cactus sludge, though.
Oh, and: "You're a dentist hairdresser, not a shaman."
@Narad
Your hubris is unbelievable. Is there any topic on Earth in which you don't believe yourself to be an expert on? I'm sure you learned quite about drugs while sitting on your computer. LMFAO
I have taken countless doses of LSD over the last few years along with an assortment of other tryptamines and phenethylamines. I know more about psychedelic drugs than you will ever know, scientifically and from first hand experience.
None of this is a secret, which is I'm divulging it on this forum despite you creepily posting my identity, but for your information, high quality LSD (fluff and lightening) is still easily available. (well maybe not to neckbeard socially awkward computer science professors in Canada).
25I-NBOMe and 25C-NBOMe are often sold in place of LSD, but they are every bit as psychedelic (if not more so). LSD glows blue under a UV light and the 2C family does not if one wanted to do a quick field test for blotters that have already been dosed out. The same goes for vials of liquid LSD, but if one has entered that realm than he is no longer dealing with amateurs.
When you know people and have a large network of psychonaut friends outside of RI, the main problem with psychedelics is not finding a pure product, but having enough time to indulge in them.
You would like to see me drink San Pedro sludge would you? HAHAHAHAHA Mescaline is tip of the iceberg, you fool.
I have interacted with multiple sets of beings in different dimensions while vaporizing DMT and and 5-meo-DMT. The machine elves were as realistic as the reality of sobriety. Combining DMT with MAOI alkaloids from Syrian Rue seeds is an experience that can't be explained by any existing words. With your arrogant grandiloquent habits you probably fancy yourself an expert, and I laugh at the thought.
I'm sure reading this makes lilady, an LN clinical- epidemiologist (LOL a pretend scientist) want to pass out like a prostitute who just overdosed.
On high doses of 2C-B and other phenetylamines I have lost track about which molecules form my body and which ones form the surrounding environment.
Go ahead, Narad, teach everyone here about drugs. Compared to the rest of Orac's gang who couldn't shoot straight, you actually might be an expert.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
TMI, although this admission would appear to explain much about you.
@Orac - wow, yes, now I have a much better understanding of what kind of nutjob he truly is.....
For some reason. I am driven to quote Jellyfish, from Mike Resnick & David Gerrold.
Now I see! Only with countless doses of true LSD William understand the truth about Franklin Pierce.
Kid, I've given away a "vial" (actually a squeeze bottle from a package of McCormick food coloring, which seemed to be quite common back in the day) that was excess to my needs.
The same goes for vials of liquid LSD, but if one has entered that realm than he is no longer dealing with amateurs.
Ah, the good old days!
When you know people and have a large network of psychonaut friends outside of RI, the main problem with psychedelics is not finding a pure product, but having enough time to indulge in them.
Again, a true statement.
Our visitor has no idea about what sort of people gravitate within Orac's sphere:
such as medical and other professionals of various ages ,
some of whom were around in the 1970s and 1980s( perhaps even before)- prior to his existence- who have experimented with many substances; a few have even studied the effects as part of their work ( in the lab and in the field).
The world seems new when you're 22. It isn't.
I didn't "post your identity," I stated that I was willing to if you persisted with remarks such as you directed at PGP and lilady. In fact, it was you who was so stupid as to acknowledge that the distinctly not-too-bright looking meme character was none other than yourself.
If you think "White Fluff" is "easily available," you're being shined on by your dealer. It seems quite obvious that you're nowhere near the level of the food chain where you're seeing the crystal in any event, given that you think liquid is some sort of realm not occupied by "amateurs."
This is something of a non sequitur, given that 2C's aren't delivered on blotter. Now, quick, tell me what the excitation wavelengths of LSD are and the kit that you're toting around for the "quick field test." Tell me what else fluoresces in the UV. (Hint: It's white, and people make marks on it.) Tell me why this "quick field test" is going to run into trouble with colored paper. Finally, tell me why both excitations are necessary.
It is precisely this sort of language that strongly suggests that you're talking out of your ass.
You plainly don't understand what this metaphor means.
No, it's an indication that you have poor language skills.
Oh, I'm quite good at identifying people who have derived nothing whatever from psychedelics, as you've just amply confirmed for me. If you think McKenna's elves are noteworthy, your fundamentally tamasic approach is quite plain.
That's an odd generalization, given the characteristic diversity of the 2C series. I can see where you'd be a 2C-B fan, though, as it's not known for provoking much in the way of insight on its own.
Oh, and...
You must not be able to count very well, either. You have about 120 opportunities per year.
Confession time? The Troll cannot even remember the first time that we pegged him as a delusional acid freak, months ago.
@Narad
No we are done. I am not playing "Narad the computer dictator" with you. I could care less what you think about me and I have nothing to justify to you. You are horribly awkward online and I laugh thinking about your social skills in person. In fact I don't trust you at all and you seem like a rat.
Oh yeah and by the way, the biggest obstacle for the psychedelic experience is the government that you all love and support so viciously.
Hmmm...interesting, because the only viciousness I've seen here is coming from the delusional, acid-idled troll.
@Lawrence
LOL Recognizing one's own hypocrisy is something liberals are incapable of.
That's funny, because I'm quite sure that is a fair description of the impression the great majority of people following this thread have formed of you. Perhaps you are projecting.
Not so long ago I used to think the world would be a better place if more people had some experience with psychedelics. Running into people like you who don't seem to have benefited at all is a major factor of many that have disillusioned me. You seem to have completely missed, avoided or been left unmoved what I have found to be the most important components of the psychedelic experience.
You have certainly convinced a lot of people here that psychedelics turn people into rude, selfish @ssholes with the social skills of a cane toad. Well done.
Breathtaking, as ever.
Still, I miss the Milton Friedman YouTube links; can we get one of him pontificating on the pleasures of psychedelics? Preferably while he's partaking.
@Delsyid - of course....you lost the ability to self-reflect during one of your acid-trips, I'm sure.
Delysid said that. This is possibly the most metahypocritical thing I have ever read.
@Krebizion
I'm I supposed to trip on acid and transform into a socialist whackjob? "I had a profound realization that the government is the answer to all of our problems!"
I discovered libertarianism after tripping on acid. "Why is this illegal?" I wondered. Then I went down the rabbit hole and discovered the endless list of failure and tyranny committed by the State.
Which drugs have you done that gives you such a predilection for socialism?
@Lawrence
The adults are talking about psychedelics. Please pipe down until you learn how to contribute more than childish liberal insults that are the equivalent of "I know you are but what am I?"
Whatever drugs you are doing Lawrence that contribute to your mindset and worldview I want no part of.
I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
Delsyid has never gotten over the idea that there are more colors in this conversation than just black and white (ironic, given his predilection for trippin' the light fantastic).....as for the vast majority of his comments, well, they continue to speak for themselves.
@Lawrence
It's hard to see the colors in this conversation when it feels like I'm talking to a robot on 12 different usernames. Several of you have the same liberal venom tainting the comments (lilady, Chris, Pig, etc), making them practically indistinguishable.
Apparently my comments are not speaking for themselves as most of your (plural) are directed towards myself and a variety of red herrings instead of my actual arguments.
Not at all, but the most consistent effects of high dose psychedelics I remember, and observed in others, included a profound sense of being interconnected to all living (and non-living) things, which led to feelings of sympathy and empathy. I've seen big mean hairy bikers crying about the suffering of mankind on acid. Psychedelics also offer us an insight into how we all construct the reality we experience, through our beliefs and prejudices, and make dogmatic certainty a lot less easy, or so it seems to me.
Perhaps those things depend on some kind of insight in the first place, but I see no hint of any milk of human kindness in anything you have written, nor any intelligent insights, witty observations, recognition of ambiguity, or anything other than regurgitation of (often inappropriate) quotations, and venting of spleen really. I have seen a few others use a lot of psychedelics and end up in a similar state, coming to believe the universe is a huge unfeeling machine - the Trance of Sorrow instead of the Trance of Joy I suppose. I gave up on an old friend of mine 25 years ago when he seemed to be on a downward, destructive, nihilistic LSD booze spiral that I couldn't yank him out of, and I was in danger of becoming his collateral damage. I was recently astonished, and delighted, to find he is still alive; married with kids, amazingly.
I can understand that, though I want a better State, with more oversight and less capacity for corruption. I think that is a worthwhile and realistic goal, while throwing the entire concept of government out is just dumb. Even you admit that, since you have described yourself as a minarchist. We all want as little government as possible, and as much as necessary don't we? We're just disagreeing about where the lines are drawn
I did a lot of psychedelics in my youth, everything you have described and more (though mostly 'shrooms) and occasionally until about ten years ago when it suddenly seemed rather pointless.. In retrospect I think I learned a lot more about life taking time out of my career to do a degree in social anthropology and spending some time in Morocco, Egypt and India than I did from drugs.
The 'insights' gained from psychedelics seem compellingly important at the time, but they quickly fade, and don't seem to have long-lasting effects, again it seems to me.
Meeting apparent entities while tripping is all very amazing at the time, but what use is it in the real world? Do you really believe these are independent entities in some 'other dimension'? I don't, I think they are epiphenomena of a brain with its chemistry out of kilter.
Oh, my, I did need a good laugh even if it's more than an hour after midnight up here in the Canadian computer science department.
^ Blockquote fail, etc. The radio has just warned me when to take precautions against "The Capitol Steps," so that's something.
^^ Also, "could refrain."
I would enjoy watching him trying to choke down some San Pedro cactus sludge, though.
At the risk of introducing the issue of coffee enemas into yet another thread, let me just say that experiments have been made in absorbing the 'cactus juice' in a way which bypassed the vile flavour and the vomiting.
Delysid: " Several of you have the same liberal venom tainting the comments (lilady, Chris, Pig, etc), making them practically indistinguishable."
I have mostly confined myself to correcting your fractured historical "facts." I am not quite sure how actually knowing history, and about the existence of several amendments to the US Constitution that were passed in the last 150 years makes one a liberal. But I guess that is one warped definition. I guess I'll have to call my dad a liberal even though he dutifully watches Fox News, and actually reads history.
So now mind altering chemicals are good for you? Wow, that explains lots, now I know why you can't think straight. Please be sure to include that bit of information when you open up your dental practice.
Am I the only one who thinks Delysid sounds like he needs serious psychiatric help? At the very least, he sounds like he's still using hallucinogens, which would explain why he keeps responding to arguments nobody has made, and failing to notice serious questions about his stances.
Just think of the future blog fodder he'll become; that ought to bring a smile to you.
I still don't get Delysids obsession with liberalism. Where I live liberals are mostly the ones that want a smaller government and less regulations.
"I've taken more hallucinogens than you, therefore I am correct" is not a valid argument no matter who makes it, nor how many drugs any of the participants in the conversation have taken, or when.
It's very weird seeing it offered on an unrelated topic--if the discussion were about the effects of those drugs, or applications in psychotherapy, it would still be a bad argument, but I can see how a person would get there. "I've taken more acid, therefore I am right about economics"? No.
Try to remember that Delysid isn't arguing with us in good faith. Has stance appears to be "whatever makes me feel morally superior at the moment." At one point, he declares "NO GOVERNMENT", then when confronted with the true face of anarchy, switches to a "minimal government" viewpoint. There's no point discussing anything with him, only pointing out his brazen dishonesty to everyone else.
@ Vicki:
You know, a long time ago (prior to my own studies), a few advocates were imagining hallucinogens as a therapeutic aid or as a means of opening the 'doors of perception'. I have so far never heard convincing evidence for its use in psychotherapy for any condition altho' there is evidence that this type of drug might adversely affect certain psychological conditions ( esp SMI).
However I'm sure that some explorers of the inner unknown DO believe that they've benefitted from their travels there. Artists and writers might welcome the expansive experience as the entry zone for new subjects but seriously, as a cautious experimenter myself, I never saw elves or magical glowing raccoons *a la* McKenna and Mullis, respectively, merely enhanced visual contours and contrasting hued shadows.
Might make nice photos but I doubt I could get a camera to capture it.
Almost forgot.
You mean the one that passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which doesn't apply to the states because of pretty much the same reasoning that you lauded from Franklin Pierce? Do you recall this exchange, in which, when demonstrated to be wrong and incapable of even understanding your own source, resorted to asserting that the "massively hypocritial" government had figured it would give "special permission" to Rick Doblin?
That reminds me of a story:
"While my first Patriarch of the West was functioning everything went well, but when Jim Boudreau resigned after a bust (brought on, he said, by the same kind of invasion of his little farm in Oregon by nitwit hordes as we resisted, a little longer, in the East) and I appointed a dentist named William Shyne to the position, all communication ceased. Shyne simply took my literature, replaced my name with his own, and kept all the records to himself. Thousands of kids on the West Coast joined under those circumstances, and can't be blamed for getting a very distorted picture of the nature and function of the church.
"Later I was told on good authority (Mike Duncan) that Shyne was a raving paranoid speed freak who generally traveled with a submachine gun under the front seat of his car and by no means limited his dealing activities to the psychedelic sacraments. But I didn’t suspect any of this at the time, having grown up with a different image of dentists. I wrote Shyne a couple letters requesting records, but got no answers.
"'What should I do about this son of a bitch?' I asked Haines, after telling him the whole story.
"'We have a mimeograph machine here, Kleps. Write a bulletin and excommunicate the bastard.'
"'I'm flat broke, Bill,' I said. This was true. Of course, one of the reasons it was true was that I hadn’t put out a bulletin, which always drew new members, and, of course, Shyne was copping all the initiation fees ($5) from the West.
“I pay for it,” said Bali Ram, who had been listening to the conversation.
"Well, I was still in no shape to write a bulletin, but I resolved to do it after my first trip [since returning], and immediately went downstairs and signed up for meditation duty....
"The response to the new bulletin was very gratifying. The difference between $5 or $10 a day and nothing a day is a profound and highly meaningful difference. It liberates the imagination, particularly if you are a heavy smoker. I found that a variety of plots and schemes were appearing in my consciousness again, and I could, just barely, envision a happy future without Morning Glory Lodge or my family.
"Such are the mysterious ways of the wondrous chemical discovered by accident in Switzerland almost thirty years ago. It loosens the chains—any kind of chains. Where you move is up to you, but you are free to move."
As far as I can tell, most libertarians believe that in their ideal society, their hard work and intelligence would put them on top, and that clearly rules are the only things holding them back.
Mrs. Asimov: How pleasant it would be if only we lived a hundred years ago when it was easy to get servants.
Isaac Asimov: It would be horrible... We'd be the servants.
I would pay to see this.
@Delysid
Skipped answering my questions again, eh? Too busy tripping? We were discussing a Typhoid Mary type of situation. You said:
I had several followup questions that I asked you back before Christmas, to wit:
Why do you avoid answering? Is it because you have no answers? Does Libertarianism fail you? Answer, and show how your ideal world would handle the situation.
@AdamG
I, too, would pay to see him over at Popehat. Break out the popcorn.
And hubris.
Denice,
Some researchers were reporting promising results using various of these drugs in combination with psychotherapy before research in this area was made illegal. I remember reading that Timothy Leary and others had reported almost miraculous results using LSD and psilocybin in this way to reduce recidivism in criminals and to treat alcoholism. The idea was that giving someone an ecstatic quasi-religious experience is good for them, and makes them a better person, which makes some sort of sense to me. Leary claimed that LSD could loosen psychological imprints and change behavior at a very deep level, but I'm not aware of any research that supports that notion.
As I recall, when I looked at Leary's actual results they weren't quite as impressive as reported - interesting but not miraculous. Again as I recall it was amphetamine derivatives like MDMA (aka Ecstasy) that had the best results with psychotherapy, allowing patients to recall and discuss painful material from their past more comfortably. More research is needed, perhaps.
Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a short acting but very intense psychedelic that, when smoked or injected iv, appears to hurtle the user through a sort of kaleidoscopic space into another universe, one apparently inhabited by the 'machine elves' and other non-human entities that McKenna reported. Clinical Psychiatrist Rick Strassman, who was given permission to do human research with DMT, describes his experiments administering the drug to a number of subjects in 'DMT: The Spirit Molecule'.
Some of the reports are very reminiscent of the reports of 'alien abductees', with subjects finding themselves on a table being operated on by alien robot creatures, for example. This would suggest that either this kind of experience is somehow hardwired into human brains, or that this is a 'real' experience in some sense, in some sort of parallel universe perhaps, as some 'psychonauts' claim. Both possibilities are strange, but I tend to go with the first ;-)
I do find it interesting that different drugs of this class characteristically induce different kinds of hallucinations. I remember reading of experiments with harmaline where the subjects, who didn't know what they had been given, mostly reported hallucinations of jaguars and snakes, which was consistent with the South American source of the harmaline used. LSD hallucinations are relatively rare, though visual distortions often occur, and psilocybin typically results in sometimes dramatic visual distortions, and beautiful closed-eye hallucinations of brightly colored and rapidly changing geometric shapes, or sometimes vast landscapes. There must be some physiological reason for these consistencies, and I would like to understand this better.
I'm not sure, but I think there were some experiments with LSD to treat people who came from concentrationcamps after WWII.
@ Krebiozen:
There is a certain consistency that leads me to believe that there is indeed a physiological basis which I can imagine taking place in certain brain areas - which I won't go into now. I've also wondered about synaesthesia ( which I have a touch of in highly restricted circumstance w/o meds**).
Of course I'm very interested in the visual type. I remember also reading de Quincy's famous descriptions of his opium visions. To its drug its own species of vision I suppose.
I did my own experiential research years ago but was very careful- as women should be in these situations.
On MDMA:
several years ago, the youngsters who rent the posh palace next door ( with the constantly changing cast of characters) were involved in rave culture- including 2 young women who sang with a well-known dj- so occasionally there would be late night parties on the balcony and adjoining area. Everyone just *loved* each other so much: it was touching. I never took much of anything from them other than cocktails. One of the original group still resides there but I believe that he and his friend only smoke pot/ cigarettes/ vape. The posh palace is now totally gay. A rather fortunate turn of events, I think.
** certain types of repetive musical patterns invoke particular visuals in the mind's eye- mostly turning or rolling wheels of white light.
@Krebiozen
DMT, I learned through many mistakes, is extremely technique sensitive when vaporizing it. People who have vaporized DMT and didn't "see" the machine elves didn't do it right. I used quotation marks around see because your eyes are no longer a conducting notable sensory information.
There are two reproducible and consistent levels to the DMT experience. The first and lower level is hyperspace. This is where your environment is a kaleidoscope. It's very intense and beautiful, but you can pop in and out of it. You can talk to your friends while simultaneously tripping. You are aware of your location in the physical world we are used to. A metaphor to describe this phenomenon is blasting off into outer space but failing to make it into orbit.
The higher level is called breaking through. This beyond hyperspace where you are transported into other realms. You no longer occupy your body and your eyes and ears and skin are irrelevant. You will encounter other beings. They are always delighted to see you, but their curiosity can be a little uncomfortable (at least at first) because they crowd around you and don't give you space. It would be as if an alien suddenly appeared in your living room at a party, and everyone surrounded it and tried to welcome it into our world.
In one trip you can go into several different realms. Usually the realms are unique to each trip, but it is possible to revisit a realm in a different trip. These are the most amazing in my opinion.
I haven't personally experienced this, but apparently you can also meet other people, other psychonauts, in the world beyond the breakthrough. I've been told stories about people talking to each other in a DMT trip and then meeting in real life later on. It's unexplainable scientifically.
The key to blasting off is to have the right equipment. You need a long glass pipe and a heat trap to block the flame from pyrolizing and destroying the delicate DMT molecules. You also need to take 3 massive hits which are held in as long as possible. It takes teamwork.
This is not easy, as by the second inhalation the sober world is already collapsing around you. The come up is kind of violent, and the though of taking a third hit is terrifying. You can't hold the pipe yourself and it must be put to your lips by your friend. You can't see them but you can still hear their voice and directions to inhale again. It is so intense by the 2nd expiration that it is hard not to hesitate, but breaking through on the third hit is actually peaceful. The breakthrough is much more calm than hyperspace.
Also, I see people here are still deliberately refusing to understand my comments. It is quite frustrating. It's classic groupthink. No one has represented or repeated back any of my arguments correctly. Narad can't seem to acknowledge that Franklin Pierce's address to Congress was about not providing welfare to the insane through land grants because of the slippery slope. His insane tangent was unreadable. Someone else seems to think that because I state that because I understand psychedelics that I also understand economics. NO. I understand economics because I study economics. Narad pretends to be an expert on every topic and no one corrects him. Of course the mob never turns on someone in the mob. It's like in the South Park episode mocking pretentious atheists in which the otters kill the wise one.
@Delysid
Still no answers to my questions. Very well, I conclude from your silence that Libertarianism, as presented by you, has no way to deal with the situation.
Damn! A lone libertarian (on LSD, no less) managed to hold the fort and make short work of a bunch of predictable, ad hominem-spewing lefties. Delysid, hats off to you!
JerryG, you must be living on Htrae if you believe what you wrote.