In our continuing exchange with Jen Shroder, a former Idiot of the Week award winner, I want to bring up another discussion from a comment thread below. In that thread, totally unrelated to anything so I have no idea why she brought it up, she said:
Did you know that African Americans and Jews are by FAR the most persecuted groups according to FBI statistics? Gays are a distant third. So where are all the pro African-American and Jewish toleration courses? There aren't any. Because it's not about tolerance. It's about recruitment of the gay community.
Jon Rowe then responded to her statement and said:
Bullshit. FBI stats prove that gays are more likely to suffer a hate crime than either of those groups.
And I started doing some research. The FBI statistics can be found in a document they put out yearly called the Uniform Crime Report. The result of that research? Jon Rowe was right and Jen Shroder was wrong. Jen was using basic raw statistics of total number of hate crimes, but even on that basis she was wrong. The total number of hate crimes against those groups was as follows:
Blacks 2486
Jews 931
Gays 1244
So even if you use raw numbers, she was wrong to claim that gays are a "distant third" behind blacks and Jews in this regard. The order would actually be blacks, then gays, then Jews. But of course you have to adjust for population size to get some sort of per capita result. There are about 38 million blacks in America, about 5 million Jews, and about 8.5 million gays (approximately 3% of the population). When you figure it out per 100,000 people, as Professor Rubenstein does in his paper analyzing these figures, you get the following:
Blacks 8.9
Jews 18.0
Gays 20.7
So per capita, gays are in fact the most persecuted, with Jews much closer behind them than I would have guessed before looking at the numbers. But there is one other thing to consider, which is the type of hate crime committed against these groups, and the stats break that down between crimes against property (vandalism, defacing property, etc) and crimes against person (simple and aggravated physical assault). When you look at those numbers, you find that 72% of the hate crimes against blacks were violent assaults, 74% of the hate crimes against gays were violent assaults, but only 38% against Jews were violent assaults. 62% of the crimes against Jews were against property, not against the person. Seems odd to me and I'd like to know why that is, but at any rate that's what the stats say.
Shroder responded to those stats by quoting another organization (not the FBI stats themselves) who only used raw total figures and didn't adjust for population size. When I pointed that out, she made the following nonsensical response:
And as far as the stats go, if there are 500 students, 50 of them African-American and one gay, and 10 of the African American students are assaulted as well as the one gay, there is still a bigger problem of African Americans getting abused than there is of 100% of the gays.
Gosh, you're right. In that hypothetical example that doesn't exist in the real world, adjusting for population size wouldn't accurately portray the situation. But join us in the real world for a moment, Jen, where there are 38 million blacks and 8 million gays, both very large sample sizes that need to be compared on an equal basis. The only way to do that is to make a per capita adjustment and look at the number of hate crimes for each 100,000 people in each group. This is really basic reasoning, folks. But here's the real kicker:
I still don't see any "tolerance" training for African Americans, why are the ten ignored while the one gay is glorified? Why all the RECRUITMENT trainings under the pretense of tolerance?
Okay, leaving aside for the moment that Jen doesn't think that there is any racial sensitivity training going on in America in schools or in corporate settings (what world does this woman live in, for crying out loud?), let's just think about her claim that promoting statistics on hate crimes against gays amounts to "recruitment training" for gays. Jen, I'm gonna break this down to a really simple level for you, dear, because it's obvious you aren't capable of handling any idea more sophisticated than that: Why the hell would any group of people try to get others to join them by publicizing the fact that they get the shit kicked out of them a lot? A promise of frequent brain hemorrhages and broken bones isn't exactly a selling point. Jen, I think you need some of those "critical thinking" skills you object to so much in your other comment. But more than that, I think you need to take this piece of advice - when your IQ hits 8, sell.
- Log in to post comments
Don't hold back, Ed; tell her how you really feel! ;)
In my experience, the reported property crime/violent crime imbalance (Jewish victims compared to black victims) is correct and explainable.
Much property crime is defacement or vandalism. The swastika is an instantly-recognized anti-Jewish symbol that is easily drawn and often used to communicate hatred of Jews. I suspect many of the property crimes are swastika graffiti. (And not all of it targeted at specific Jews, but at Jews in general.)
Jews tend to be established in the community and have access to police services which they are not hesitant to use appropriately (calling the police when their cars have been painted with swastikas), which may result in a greater reporting percentage than property crimes against blacks.
Many Jews are not immediately identifiable as Jewish, whereas most blacks are immediately identifiable as black. That may in some way explain the greater tendency of the criminals to vent their rage by physical attack on a specific person rather than by damaging property.
Jews have thousands of years of experience in practical assimilation (blending in) and avoiding violent attacks. The hater's rage doesn't go away, it just can't find a target so easily.
There's more, I'm sure, but that's what came off the top of my head.
Along the lines of your advice, Ed, someone should point out to Ms. Shroder that African Americans gave up on their recruiting drive, oh, somewhere around the turn of the 19th century. Despite their best efforts to sell the boat ride to America as the equivalent of a 19th century Club Med vacation, it became clear that the whole chains and chattel slavery thing was discouraging others from signing up. And despite the fact that it happened in Nazi Germany, the concentration camps and mass exterminations seemed to have an oddly chilling effect on Jewish recruitment here in the States.
On a more positive note, fundamentalists like Ms. Shroder are still in the market for recruits. You simply need to renounce logic, reason, critical thinking, liberal political thought, toleration, and post-Enlightenment ideas. Oh, and Satan, too. But look at the bright side. You get to claim moral superiority, infinite rationalization, divine inspiration, and an absolutely airtight response to any argument you don't like: God says so!
carpundit-
I guess I'm just blown away by how much hatred there is of Jewish people. Those numbers are far, far higher than I would have guessed in relation to hate crimes against blacks or gays. I would have guessed that it would be a fraction of the other two. I'm just amazed, and not for the better, that there is still that much anti-semitism in our culture still. It makes me sad.
God wouldn't approve of your math. Besides it's higher level math of the sort not taught in Bible college. For the first time I begin to see the positive of reelecting Bush - four more years of increasing parody.
Along the lines of your advice, Ed, someone should point out to Ms. Shroder that African Americans gave up on their recruiting drive, oh, somewhere around the turn of the 19th century. Despite their best efforts to sell the boat ride to America as the equivalent of a 19th century Club Med vacation, it became clear that the whole chains and chattel slavery thing was discouraging others from signing up. And despite the fact that it happened in Nazi Germany, the concentration camps and mass exterminations seemed to have an oddly chilling effect on Jewish recruitment here in the States.
Okay, I thought my response to the recruitment claim was pretty clever, but this is bloody brilliant. Bravissimo!
Why the hell would any group of people try to get others to join them by publicizing the fact that they get the shit kicked out of them a lot? A promise of frequent brain hemorrhages and broken bones isn't exactly a selling point.
I have one word for you my friend ... gay masochist.
O.K., so that's 2 words. But man, do they know how to sell themselves.
"I'm just amazed. . .that there is still that much anti-semitism. . . .It makes me sad."
It does not amaze me. It worries me. Though mostly for my children.
Ed,
Ms. June, the prime mover in getting Roy Moore's Ten Commandment monument displayed here in Dayton (home of the Scope's Trial) TN, has a sign board in front of her thrift shop on US 27 just North of Dayton. She displays different messages like "Support Gun Owners" or "Support the Bill of Rights" meaning the rights of Christians to discriminate against others, of course.
So I'm coming home from Dayton the day after Al Gore picked Joe Liberman as his running mate, and guess what Ms. June had on her sign?
GORE
CHOOSES
ANTI-CHRIST
I kid you not. I nearly ran off the road. I didn't have a camera with me so I put one in the car when I got home, so I could take a picture, but by the next time I got to Dayton, the sign had been changed.
Apparently, Mr. June doesn't recall that Jesus was Jewish!
But she's not alone, just more obvious. When Gore didn't win his home state, this was a part of the reason.
So when Bush says, "We're gonna win the South, 'cause they share are values," this is a part of what he's talking about.
B
Bill: It must be a real treat to live in Rhea County. Do you remember the man who was arrested at the "Gay Day" protest? The sign he carried listed all the sorts of folks who were destined to burn in Hell. Some that I remember were as follows: Jews, homosexuals, secular humanists, Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and, of course, Muslims.
I mean no insult to you; I'm just crackin' on your county. You must occasionally feel a little out of your element, hmm? I have little room to speak, being a resident of Knox County. I nearly died of shock when our commissioners voted down the so-called "God Resolution".
Yes indeed, Rob, living in Rhea County is a real hoot. Take this from our latest election results:
"Incumbent school board member Pat Conner, 4th District, lost his bid for re-election to Harold "Bimbo" McCawley by a vote of 242 to 176."
It's nice to know we have Bimbo on our school board, that's what helps make Rhea County such a wonderful place to live!
B
I'd add that Jewish property is often readily identifiable as such--a mezuzah on the front door, for example. When I was a teenager, our house suffered some mild anti-Semitic vandalism (swastikas & nasty comments chalked on the driveway, egging), courtesy of the local skinhead.
lol Ed, I was laughing so hard at what you wrote, I truly admire the way you write even at my expense, that was funny.
Ed, I'm sorry, sometimes I get rushed and don't pay enough attention to blogging...but Ed, seriously, racial sensitivity was never presented by asking kids to read black pornography and consider joining. Oh yes, they do that in "homosexual" training. Or they would if parents were not up in arms, keeping it at bay as much as we can.
If parent's hadn't complained, oh my gosh, they would probably have rooms to check it out, I mean, if a teacher invites children to taste condoms in Texas, and social services doesn't object, then trial gay rooms wouldn't be far behind. (no pun intended)
It's been fun, Ed, don't know if I can make it back, had trouble posting on this site before, don't know if this will make it, take care, Jen
hey, it worked! must be because I'm on a different computer? (go ahead laugh, I'm not techno)
Here's a link to the flavored condom story
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/000266.htm
and another favorite:
http://www.blessedcause.org/protest/Top%2020%20Gay%20Hits.htm
take care, love the way you write, jen