I get email — special cracker edition!

You asked for it, I deliver. Here's a good chunk of the opposition email that I've received in the last two days; not quite all of it, though, since I got bored and a lot of it has just been going straight into the trash. I've tried to cut out most of the identifying names and so forth, but if I missed a few…tough.

Trust me, it's very tiresome to read.

I know you are smarter than most people and probably even God himself, if you even believe in God. But you could learn something in humility. And there is nothing wrong with a Catholic standing up for his faith. In fact, a Catholic who doesn't defend his faith is an ignorant Catholic. Mr. Donohue defends the Catholic faith and deserves praise from all Catholics. I bet your one of those tolerant professors who shows tolerance to everything but Christianity. But I am sure your are proud of bashing the Catholic faith.


I can definitely score a Eucharist for you. You may not care for the taste though, but then again I don't care for your moronic position regarding the desecration of the Eucharist. Would you be bold enough to take this type of childish stance if it were involving a sacred Muslim object/ I'd bet cash money that you wouldn't as folks like you hide in the insulated academic world, as you are too frightened and inept to work in the corporate world where one is paid and advances based on performance, not liberal childish rants. Where do you want me to send it?


The Catholic League is going after your job because you are a vile anti-
Catholic bigot who really does deserve to pay a high price professonally for
such a public act of contempt for the Catholic faith of tens of millions of
your fellow countrymen. I intend to write to your University and support the
call for disciplinary action against you (and encourage all my colleagues to do
likewise) for misusing your University's resources to express hatred and for my
faith. You are confusing free speech for hate speech and the U. of Minnesota
would do very well to help you see the difference, since you have given every
sign of lacking the emotional, social and intellectual resources to make such
an elementary distinction.


IF Catholics had half the testosterone of muzzies, the answer would be simple. Holy hollowpoint. But alas, I expect they will whimper and grovel as usual.


I am sure you are a very intelligent man and that is why it surprises me that you would find the time to spew such vile anti-catholic bigotry about something held sacred in a religion of over a billion people. Surely you have more valuable things to do with your time than hate filled blogs about the Holy Eucharist. I wont waste a lot of my time or your time trying to change your mind through a debate. All I can say is please refrain from hate filled blogs. It makes what is supposed to be an intelligent person look very small minded. Keep hope as I'm sure you are being prayed for.


just read that you are looking to desecrate the Eucharist. It's great to know that America's institutions of "higher learning" have gifted folks like you teaching future generations. Sometimes I worry about whether or not our schools and universities are filled with a bunch of whack-jobs spewing nothingness into the minds of our young. I need not worry any more...with "professors" like you, Mr. Myers, I know we are in great shape.

God help us (us includes you).

PS - I find it rather funny that so many people are incredibly tolerant (nice buzzword) until they feel offended. Then all tolerance goes out the window.


So, would you really do something like that? Really? I can only suppose, then,
that you also wouldn't mind defecating on a Buddha in a temple, or urinating on
a Torah while it's still in its Ark, or maybe you'd go for stuffing a Koran
down a toilet and flushing. Were you the kind of brother that would tear off
the head of your sister's favorite doll? - or step on one of your
mother's favorite plants? I saw your picture on the university's website
and you look like a pretty even-tempered man. You don't look like a man that
would do what you described above, let alone say it. What happened man?
Seriously - what happened?

You should be nicer in what you say and do to people and to the things those
people hold dear. If you don't have anything good to say - don't say anything
at all.


Why are you such an insensitive man? Do you think you're funny? Your comments hurt a lot of people-but don't worry-we'll pray for you!

Hey Mr. Critical, I dare you to do something to desecrate Islam. -Oh thats right; they are not passive like Christians and a loud mouth Jerk like yourself would get jihaded. My guess is your principles stop when it gets scarry!

I'll be looking for you're new "Islam Posting" you pussy. I don't think you have the balls though!

Take a good look in the mirror-is there a soul in there? I sure hope you find it.


Unfortunately,

You couldn't help yourself! Pay the tax payers for your advertising!

Free loader!


You are another fine example of good education dollars gone to waste.....I hope your resume is up to date, because after your latest diatribe regarding the Eucharist, you are going to be out of a job. Good riddence.


is it so easy to acquire academic status at this seat of learning (UMM) that the acquisition to Professor be given to the one least fitting?

I refer you to Prof Paul Zachary Myers and his alleged remarks regarding the Eucharist, or Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, Son of the living God.

I do not know the professor but if I am to understand his mental state he considers the Eucharist merely a 'Frackin Cracker'?

If this be the case why would an alleged intelligent person (supposed) become so enraged over a 'Frackin Cracker'?

This Prof lectures in Science and Mathematics and if he said those things that would hardly be Scientific or Mathematical.

For instance he could have responded by saying what is the Mathematical odds of the Eucharist being what it is claimed to be?

Or he could have said those Christians are not very Scientific in their beliefs and he could have acted in a more mature fashion.

He chose to do neither of these but apparently flew off at a 'Tangent' and became quite un-scientific in what he would or would not do to a small 'host', and before photographers as well.

Is he that un-stable and lacking in attention that he would resort to childish behaviour without regard to his faculty or the example set to his students?

I say again the standard set for academic heads in this university needs to be addressed.

Perhaps Mr Myers has deep seated animosity toward Christians and somehow seeks redress for his earlier years as a Jewish person (assumed) growing up in the wrong neighbourhood?

If that is the case then Christians everywhere apologise and assure him we do not hate Jewish people but love them as elder brothers and sisters in Christ.

We would like him to reciprocate in kind and give up the hatred that drives him to say such things against the only person in the Universe that really loves him, and that is Christ.

He will understand the immensity of that love being in the science faculty. Regards


Paul, why are you persecuting Me?


We will be praying for you and for your conversion in reference to your "It's a Frackin' Cracker!" comments.


Perhaps Prof. Myers should try desecrating the Koran next time ... or perhaps you should censure him, and let him know that 21st century people don't go bashing other folks religious beliefs. What Prof. Myers problem is ... drinking too much, or just he just like bullying soft targets ... as his boss you need to address the BIG BLACK EYE he just gave your school ... nationwide! All Catholic kids would do well do avoid your campus until you resolve this issue.


I know that you are just acting out because you are spending your career at a fourth tier university (wasn't the community college hiring?) Would you go to a Mosque and eat a ham sandwich? No of course not, because you are a typical whiny college professor. Are you upset because your boyhood priest didn't show you any love?


As a Catholic professor in theology I am deeply sadden by your comments. If this were said about the Muslim Koran or the Jewish faith the media would be all over you and you would lose your job. But not if you attack the Catholic Church. Your University turns a blind eye. Shame on them.

What do you have against Catholics and our faith to make you say such harsh and evil things?


I am a believing Catholic and saw the statements about the Eucharist you posted at 10:40 a.m. today (July 10, 2008) on the Pharyngula website ("It's a Frackin' Cracker!"). I found your e-mail address on the University of Minnesota's web page, Dept. of Biology.

You trample one of the very dearest beliefs of Catholicism in brutally offensive terms, and you propose heinous sacrilege. I was very sorry to read that and earnestly hope and pray that you will not follow through on your desire to commit sacrilege with a consecrated Eucharist.

It is profoundly disturbing that you are in a position of authority over students most surely including Catholics, Orthodox, Episcopalians and other Christians who believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.


As I'm sure you are now aware one of your staff members, Paul Myers, has publicly made remarks that are extremely offensive to the sensibilities of all Orthodox and Roman Catholics:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/now_ive_got_bill_donohues_at…

I understand that Prof. Myers has the constitutional right to speak his mind on whatever issues he feels compelled, however as a staff member of your university it is my understanding that Prof. Myer is expected to adhere to code of conduct that fosters respect and civility towards people of all backgrounds and beliefs:
http://www1.umn.edu/regents/policies/academic/Code_of_Conduct.html

Prof. Myers comments have clearly gone beyond any reasonable dialog and I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say that they constitute hate speech.

I am not asking for any specific action on your part, as I trust that you will know best how to ensure that the values of tolerance and civility are being fostered at your University. However, I did want to ensure that you were aware that these comments were made and that they are being associated with University of Minnesota on a national level:
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1459


Dear President Bruin:

It appears that Professor Paul Z. Myers is either insane or, if there is a difference, a rabid hater of the Catholic Church as he has publicly (With ID as one of your teachers) stated that he will publicly desecrate the Holy Eucharist in the form of a consecrated communion host.

If he is generally against religion, I suggest that he show the courage of that position by publicly using a copy of the Koran to wipe his behind. If he plans to do so, please let me know so I can give prior notice to the Muslim communities in your State AND recommend to a mathematics instructor I know to apply to fill the sudden vacancy of Dr. Myers' position.

Unless Dr. Myers is severely disciplined I would recommend to the University of Wisconsin, Marquette University and all other schools that they do NOT accept credit transfers from your school as to serious doubts as to the quality of instruction there.


I do not wish to remove your cranium from your backbone.

I do not know what drives you to be an intolerant hypocrite of an Atheist.

But I would be happy to press charges of committing a "hate crime."

Do not stand in line for the Eucharist in my parish; I would be sure to prevent you from committing a heinous desecration


How did you ever get hired? You sure won't get tenure, and don't deserve it. I'm writing to the President for what its worth.


I urge you to stand up against the hate-filled "professor" Paul Zachary Myers, and the University President Robert Bruininks for allowing Mr. Myers to spew hateful Anti-Catholic tirades that can be accessed directly from the U of M's web site. I EMPLOR YOU TO STOP GIVING ANY MONEY TO THE UNIVERSITY UNTIL MR. MEYERS IS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS BIGGOTRY!

Here is an excerpt of his July 8 post, "It's a Frackin' Cracker!" accessed from the U of M website:

"Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?" Myers continued by saying, "if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won't be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web."

If any professor denigrated and insulted homosexuals, Muslims, threatened to desecrate the Koran, or insulted Martin Luther King in this way you would have an all-out riot on your hands. However, as usual, it seems to be open season on Catholics with no consequences.

Paul Myers is a buffoon with zero intellectual qualities and has no business on your University's staff. If you don't believe me just check out the level of immaturity and stupidity he displays on his blog.


I read your blog about the consecrated host being a "frackin' cracker", and criticizing, objecting to a position the Catholic League took against a student at the university of Central Florida.

Needless to say, as a devout Roman Catholic, I join with thousands of others who were very offended by your remarks. I believe that the "frackin' cracker", as you so cleverly referred to the Sacred Host, is the Body of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ consecrated by a priest at Mass under the appearance of a wafer of unleavened bread. This is my faith and that of millions of other orthodox Catholics. You have offended us grievously. If you have such apparent regard for the sincere faith of others, I challenge you to publish a similar disparaging remark about the Koran or other sacred beliefs of Islam, or for that matter any other religion.

I demand that you publish an apology for your offensive remark.


I pity the students who pay good money to go to college and have to listen to your arrogant diatribes against whatever subject you loathe. How totally immature and pathetic.

Would you be so brave as to use such hate-filled rhetoric against the MUSLIM tenets? I doubt you'd want a jihad launched against you for your FREE SPEECH which many Catholics in the service died giving you.


Wow PZ that's quite a rant! Your temper is getting the best of you? As an asso professor, what a lesson you teach our children: hate, religious bigotry, intolerance, shouting instead of discussion, use of innuendo w/o facts, etc.! You must really hate Catholics.

"Scumbags" and "which hunters"? I thought liberal intellectuals were tolerant - even of those they disagree with.

Just because you're a devout and zealous atheist (I see your blog site http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/) doesn't mean you have to HATE and offend all Catholics. Can you not be "respectful, fair and civil".


Yesterday almost no one outside of the narrow confines of Minnesota academia had ever heard the name of Paul Zachary Myers. But today the name rings with infamy, and has become synonomous with hatred and intolerance. You might have gained renown for some tremendous scientific breakthrough, or for touching the minds and hearts of your students. Instead you have become notorious for your ignorance and your bigotry. Your story, Paul, is truly tragic.

If you are not Catholic than you have no reason to publicly opine about the doctrine of Eucharistic transubstantiation. You certainly have no right to parade your ignorance and sacrilege via a link to the university's web page. If you had so publicly mocked the culture of blacks, Muslims, homosexuals, or Jews than you would be (rightfully) without a job today. But since you picked on Catholics and their beliefs, you probably feel that you are professionally in the clear since it is very fashionable in the academic sphere to trash Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular.

As a Jew who has been baptized a Catholic I can say I am no stranger to either anti-Semitism or to anti-Catholicism. Both lead to the same conclusion, Paul: the perpetrators become lesser human beings.

Shame on you for abusing your academic pulpit in this way. I pray that the university authorities will handle your case with wisdom and with justice.

Paul, you have some bridges to build after this terrible misdeed. Make amends, and stop hating for hate's sake.


Myers: How about dropping your ignorant, immature, hate-filled, bigoted stunt? If you do desecrate the Body and Blood of Christ, you are playing with fire, and you will regret it eternally. I know how people like you laugh at and scorn people like me, but I'm afraid God will get the last laugh on this one. GOD IS NOT MOCKED. Because I'm Catholic, I have to pray for you, and I will, but in the end, you're the one with free will to accept or reject Jesus. Good luck--you'll need it.


I am writing to express my outrage at Professor Myers' expressed intention to desecrate a consecrated Host, an object held sacred by Roman Catholics. Yes, we all know by now that the professor holds all religion in utmost contempt -- he's made that clear enough to the general public. However, what he is asking for on his blog post goes beyond the pale. As American citizens who enjoy the right to the freedom of religious expression, Catholics should also have the right to be free from this sort of harassment against our faith, especially from a professor who is paid with tax dollars, tax money which we Catholics also contribute.

From his latest posting, he's obviously feeling like he's rather immune from any sort of consequences. If that turns out to be true, then I will be deeply disappointed. Obviously, there isn't much I can do. I won't threaten him because such threats would be empty and stupid (and those who have threatened him should be ashamed of themselves). I can't say I'll boycott paying my taxes as the State wouldn't appreciate it. However, I can call on those who are in authority to exercise that authority appropriately and to at least reprimand him for what should be easily recognized as truly outrageous behavior.

I seriously doubt that he would ask someone to get him a Koran from a mosque or a copy of the Torah from a synagogue in order to publicly desecrate them since, after all, they're only pieces of paper with ink on them. Asking for the Koran would probably bring him and the U of M physical harm. Asking for a Torah would bring a swift lawsuit from the ADL. Right now, all he's getting is a public scolding from the Catholic League and some nasty e-mails. Therefore, I hope the U of M sees this for what it is -- a serious offense against Catholics -- and takes appropriate action.


I honestly pity the hatred that you seem to embody. Anybody that did threaten you or was hateful was absolutely wrong....however one cannot but pity the sadness, anger and frustration that is clearly evident in the way you write. It truly would not take a psychologist to see how toxic to you your own poison actually is!!

I am not sure what form of education gave you the licence to speak the way you do or made you think that "you're it", however, truly you would do yourself an immense favor (probably more than anybody else), if you at least minimized the amount of trash you spew and the ignorance you portray in so doing.... Truly there is no limit to stupidity!
As a Catholic I forgive you. May God bless you and enlighten your mind.


What a sad, pathetic man you are. You were raised a Christian - why all the hatred and name calling? What did we ever do to you to make you hate us so much? As a taxpayer who's helping pay your salary I'm entitled to have a say over vitriol posted on a public site that rips into me and my beliefs.


I want to tell you how disgusting your blasphemy is to me as a Catholic and as a UMM grad.
I have asked to be removed from any further contact with UMM and will never give another dime towards any alumni support or scholarship support. It is quite interesting how you who are amongst the most liberal denigrate and blaspheme that which you know nothing about and criticize that which is sacred and holy.


I just read the July 8, 2008 rant by Prof. Myers, in which he pledges to
desecrate the Catholic Eucharist (which Catholics consider to be holy).
Frankly, I am astounded that your University would allow such vitriolic
hatred and bigotry to be spewed from one of its Professors! I don't think
I've ever before come across such prejudice and hatred in print! The fact
that he teaches students (some of whom are Catholic) is most troubling. Is
this the kind of person parents and taxpayers pay to influence the minds of
their students? I wonder if Catholicism is belittled in his classroom as
well--who knows? Clearly, he is an immature man and a first class bigot.

I certainly hope that you and the Board of Regents will treat this matter
with the seriousness it deserves. In such cases, I've found that it's often
enlightening to argue by analogy and to substitute another group for the one
which is being denigrated. Thus, instead of against Catholics, let's assume
that Prof. Myers spewed bigotry against Jews or Blacks. For example, let's
imagine that Prof. Myers said, "The Torah is nothing more than a piece of
paper. Can anyone out there steal me a torah? I'll show you sacrilege,
gladly, and with much fanfare. I will treat it with profound disrepect and
heinous abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web! I intend to
urinate on it, draw swastikas on it, and then rip it up."

I'm sure that if your professor said such things regarding a holy Jewish
object, he would be instantly fired. Or, at the very least, he would be
vilified in the press and picketed by students. Great numbers of enraged
faculty members, moreover, would call for his resignation. And alumni would
boycott their contributions to the school. No one would even think to
mention freedom of speech or tenure in the face of such hatred and bigotry.

Why, then, should it be any different when Catholics are the object of his
hatred and bigotry???????

We need to hit him where it hurts. Perhaps I should grab a copy of his Holy
Book, which I assume to be Darwin's Origin of Species, and desecrate that!
LOL!!


I recently found your comments on your blog, which is linked to official U of M sites, to be offensive to members of the Catholic faith. I am a 25-year old Catholic who is also a teacher and I would ask you to consider the position you have in the academic world. As a professor and a teacher of students, you are a unique position to change lives. You are, no doubt, respected for your position and your expertise. As such, you also bear a responsibility to those whom you teach to be civil and use your reason to bring others to the truth. Degrading a religious faith is an abuse of your position in society. Arguing against the doctrine of the Eucharist in a rational matter would have been a better choice. Then you could have engaged in an interesting debate. Many people would have benefited. I hope that you will consider your approach to such issues in the future. I'm sure you are a busy man, but if you would like to correspond more on the matter, I would be happy to speak with you.


if you want to get some real laughs and giggles, why not say something really disparaging about Allah?? i think we all know why, let's see how wild and kooky you are and do that, we all know attacking Christians is easy, i think you were the kind of kid who would hand over your lunch money to the bullies at school instead of standing up for yourself, by the way, what are you doing for mankind that equals what a Mother Teresa did, and she believed in the Eucharist...oh i know, you teach biology......that is a big deal.


Your plans to publicly and intentionally debase a consecrated communion wafer have recently come to my attention. While I have the utmost respect for your right to freedom of speech, I have to strongly discourage you in this course of action. Just because you can do something, does not mean you should. Not only will you deeply offend and disrespect millions of Catholics, Orthodox and Episcopalians with such an act, you will violate the sense of mutual respect and understanding that has allowed this nation to be a forum of shared knowledge and a haven for the persecuted. Perhaps you are unaware of it due to its lack of publicity, but anti-Catholicism is alive and well. While this act might seem to be a harmless act of protest to you, it only reinforces the bigotry that many of us face on a daily basis. This act would be as offensive to Catholics as a desecration of the Koran would be to Muslims. I doubt your employers would approve of a plan for you to publicly defile the Koran, so I would hope that they will not endorse your current plan either. Why do you feel the need to do this? I am happy for you to voice disapproval with the Catholic Church, but can't you find some other, intelligent and meaningful way of doing it? Debate a Bishop, write a paper, make a TV appearance, burn the Papal flag, just don't carry out your plan. If you have grievances with the Church, explain your position in a public forum. That's the American thing to do.


You have asked your reader to provide you with communion wafers for the purpose of "show[ing] you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare." I readily concede that it is extremely strange, even a little creepy, to believe that a wafer is in a real sense God, and yet that is what I do believe. I have no objection to your jokes and satirical remarks -- they're not much different from what Protestants have been saying for five hundred years, and indeed what Berengar of Tours said in the eleventh century. However, I do ask you this: that you not actually carry out your plan. I wouldn't ordinarily make such a request of a stranger, but the thing can hardly matter to you one way or the other -- as you put it, it's a cracker -- and it does matter to me. I have tried to find an analogy to explain my request and this is the best I can do: you might be entirely right that a old rag is worthless and should be thrown out, yet, if that rag were a small child's security blanket, I doubt you would do so, to spare the child's feelings. I put myself in the place of that child, and ask: Please don't. I'm not asking for respect, only for a small kindness of omission: not trampling feelings for the sake of the trampling.


What do you hold sacred?

Do you respect the faith of others?

Does your employer support all kinds of diversity EXCEPT religious?

Do you support all manner of rule and law breakers?

Your threat is foolish and your reaction to the Catholic League borders on psychotic.


I urge you not to desecrate the Eucharist.

In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.

Such a sacrilege would not only be deeply offensive to Catholics, but also to people of all faiths for such a blatant disrespect of a profoundly held religious belief.


I am getting more accustomed to the idea that there apparently exists a nascent consensus in certain academic circles that it is OK to bait Catholics (whilst other faiths- whether of religious or secular pedigree- are either ignored, tolerated, or, in certain privileged instances of natural selection, jammed down our throats by judicial decree).

I simply wish to point out that such a consensus is odious. It is ugly, uncivilized, and perfectly know-nothing.

I hope that you will determine it to be in the best interests of your institution- as it most certainly is in the best interest of limiting further self-humiliation of this ignorant boor Meyers- to advise him to leave his Catholic-bashing to his private time and resources.


You must be crazy.


Myers, you certainly sound like a B.Y.E.

What do you do in your spare time, watch The Exorcist and root for Satan?

You supposedly "teach" science and math?

I doubt it.

Remember that Freedom of Speech is not freedom to harm others, which is what you are doing.

But since you are snug in your relative values of the moment, I know that will mean nothing to you, or your sick ego.


I can't tell you how disappointed I am regarding remarks of desecrating something that is Sacred to my family and all Catholics; the Holy Eucharist
The University of Minnesota Morris should be a beacon of enlightenment, not a cave of prejudice, hatred and ignorance. I have twins in high school and the University of Minnesota Morris is one university where I, unfortunately, will not allow them to attend. I will not have them present at a University that will entertain individuals who will hate them for their religion.


don't know what your beliefs are, but it is sad that you have no regard for those many millions of us who love the catholic church and the Holy Eucharist. It is disappointing that someone in your position, in a university teaching our young, future leaders to desecrate something others deem holy. Perhaps you should be more considerate and learn some basic manners. You don't need a college degree for that, do you? Certainly, this is a scathing indictment on your "institution of higher learning".


I ran across your blog via a link from Mark Shea's website.

Your blog is, in my opinion, a very inspirational site.

I'm retired from the military, a college graduate, and have a 99th percentile IQ, verified by High School, college, and military intelligence testing. Since you are a professor, I assume you understand percentile rankings.

I am also a convert to the Catholic Church, being fully accepted into the Church in my early 40s.

I must tell you that, far from being offended by your commentary, I am, rather, confirmed in my beliefs, and inspired by your hatred of Christ.

I used to believe, essentially, as you do, though without the vitriolic hatred. I had nothing against people who believed in God, regardless of their denominational persuasion. I just didn't buy it.

But, over the years, as I experienced life, educated myself, studied (as a hobby) subjects such as physics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, history, theology, biology, and many other topics, I found myself realizing that there may be more to our existence than simple happenstance.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I appreciate your blog. Christ foretold you, and many others just like you, two millennia ago when He prophesied that his followers would be hated because of Him. Pretty clever for someone you regard either as a myth, or as a deranged lunatic.

Remember, PZ, you have absolutely no verifiable explanation of why, or how, we are here. None. Your atheism is a faith equal to or exceeding that of the most committed religious zealot. You have no proof whatsoever of your atheistic beliefs. None. Zilch. Zero. You are no different in your faith than Mohammed Atta, or any of the 9/11 killers. In a way you are worse than they were; you are "educated" and "civilized", whereas they were simply indoctrinated. But you and your kind are the greatest killers in the history of Man; see, for example, Stalin, Hitler, and Mao: they were all intellectual secularists, just like you.

You're not at all intelligent, PZ; you've simply adopted the 1960s default position of taking a contrarian position to accepted or conventional wisdom, and imagining that you've adopted a position of "enlightenment". It's sad, really; you've achieved a position of educational eminence, yet have never learned how to think.

If you really want a wafer to desecrate, you're welcome to come to meet me in Skowhegan at my Church; I'll give you one, and gladly, and sadly, watch you make a fool of yourself. I'm not a bit bothered that you don't believe in God; God may be, but I'm not.

You're a bully, a coward, a bigot, a dullard masquerading as an intellectual, and an extremely poor writer. Incidentally, perusing the comments on your blog I was struck by the extraordinarily poor grammar and writing skills of your disciples, in addition to their ignorance, hatred, and bigotry. But not terribly surprised, actually.


As a graduate student and a convert to Catholicism (through my own, intellectual choosing), I find your disdain of Catholics and their beliefs deplorable, immature, and unprofessional. I hope that as a historian that I never call for such disrespect for any world religion as you have done, much less be responsible for the scandal that it would bring to the devotee's hearts, faith, and well-being.

As an employee of the state, much like yourself, I would also think such offensive speculation would jeopardize my standing in the field and would limit me as I try to advance in my chosen career path.

I hope that others contact you as well, and that a heartfelt and sincere apology to Catholics and those that happen to not share you 'enlightened' worldview would be much appreciated by all involved in this ugly and unfortunate event.


Your posting on your website titled "It's a frackin' cracker!" was both rude and insensitive toward the beliefs of millions of people. Your opinions about whether or not the Eucharist is actually God are your own, and I respect your opinion, but desecrating another's sacred and holy object is not at all respectable. Ripping apart the Eucharist for those of the Catholic faith is equivalantly worse than force-feeding a cow to a Hindu, or displaying pictures of Allah to insult the Muslim community. You do not need to act like an ass to express your beliefs. I request that you refrain from treating my God in such a disrespectful manner; in case you do not comprehend how much your suggestion has upset people, it might be equivalent to your grief had someone threatened to run over your children. Your opinions are your own, but they don't give you license to do whatever you please. I hope your research in the biological field continues to be successful and I thank you for your time.


So i just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your ideas about
the Eucharist. It really demonstrates how incredibly far the modern
man has gone to reject God and any form of religion. It shows how far
we have fallen that you, a so called PROFESSOR would say these things.
Why do you not post something like, "Its just a ROCk" for the Temple
of the Mount and offer desecration and cursing for a piece of it. Why
do you act like this? Biology has nothing to do with theology so why
do you get involved? Your behavior is that of a child, not a PhD.

You should be ashamed of yourself and you should delete the post and
offer an apology because alot of people are offended by your comments.


If it's just a cracker, then why not just desecrate an unconsecrated host?


How about a Koran, Dr. M? How about speaking w/ a Catholic theologian?


It is absolutely unacceptable to have on faculty a professor who does not represent and honor true showmanship and academic professionalism. It is abhorring that a University should labor such a person in question of doubtful virtuous character. Teachers and faculty members represent, both as a whole and in parts, the quality and the degree of excellence of the institution. But evidence have shown to the contrary. If the University wishes to maintain its high standard and prestige, it must show the dependability on part of the administration to keep and sustain the good reputation of its academia and people.


I have read your blog before for information on evolution and found it very informative. I find it sad that you also use it to broadcast irrational, foul-mouthed rants. You are giving yourself, your university, and all biology professors a bad name. Is it only when dealing with scientific data that you can muster self-control and rational thinking (rather than running, first thing, to ad hominem)? Or can you be trusted even to impartially evaluate scientific arguments? Show some respect and please try to use a little decorum. If you were to similarly insult any group--ANY group--other than Catholics, there would be a media uproar.


I am Catholic and I understand why you wrote the posts such as "frackin cracker." I would like to say take the instance you have a personal prized possession that to many looks like nothing special. People would look at it and say "it`s just a rock" or something along those lines but to you it is so much more. Now imagine someone threatened to take it and damage or destroy it (which I am not at all threatening) how would you feel? What if they actually did such a thing? Shock and outrage would probably comprise all or part of your reaction correct?

To you the host the Eucharist is a cracker, yes it certainly looks like one, smells like one and so on. For Catholics though when the priest speaks the words of consecration something called transubstantiation takes place whereby the appearance of bread and wine remain but they become the body blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Yes it is difficult to grasp I know but for Catholics who believe (including me) that that really is Jesus defending the Eucharist is a big deal for that reason, they think it really is Him. They see value in that "cracker" that you do not the same way you see value in a simple object that I do not. It is only through discussion not desecration that we can come to understand the meaning behind things we hold as special but to the other look like nothing.

I would ask of you to take to your nearest Catholic church any hosts that people may send you, and give them to the priest. Please do not do anything to them. The Eucharist (those crackers) is something special to me and I would appreciate your co operation in not harming something I care about even though you do not see its value.


May I ask you to click the following link to find out how Catholics feel about our Eucharist?
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm

Take your time and explore it...please explore with an open mind. I wish you well in mind, body and spirit...I wish you Eternal Truths, and a Hunger to seize you to know these Truths.

Please also, click the banner above to feed the physically Hungry. There are rising food prices and we believe that Jesus is present in everyone. But He is physically present in the Consecrated Host, and He feeds us spiritually with His Body and Blood in a form we accept as food - bread.

I can't describe to you how deeply I know this. It is out-of-this-world information.

Even if you never believe in the Reality of God in the Consecrated Host, I would humbly ask you to respect the beliefs of others and please don't do what you have said you will do.

Prayers, Blessings, Happiness now and for Eternity be yours!


I read an article on Catholic On-line about your intentions on desecration of the holy Eucharist. It is shameful that a person in your position of leadership over our youth in this nation would act in this manner. You should stop your sinful actions and apologize to the many Catholics who you have truly offended.

In the end, you are accountable which I will pray for your soul.


Myers rant and threats against the Holy Eucharist are a sad, but not a historically unfamiliar occurrence. I think Myers would have fit in well with other movements throughout history that sought to treat the Holy Eucharist with unholy regard. The Anarchists of the Spanish Civil War would have welcome Myers with opened arms, for example, and they surely would have supplied him with a large bundle of Eucharists.

Those throughout history that have attacked the Holy Eucharist in such a way harbor a deep seated resentment for things holy. And for Catholics, it doesn't get much holier than the Eucharist. The Holy Eucharist represents Jesus Christ himself to Catholics, and it is beyond me why Myers would think it appropriate to desecrate Jesus Christ (again fitting in quite well with Anarchists and such). (Ironically, of course, Jesus represents the "Truth", and it's laughable that Univ. professor would harbor such deep resentment for the truth).

Myers is a wonderful example of an intelligent professor who, by way of his hatred of the Eucharist, has no respect for his Catholic students or co-workers. Send this professor packing. As a Catholic and an alumni of the University of MN, this man lacks an essential characteristic needed to be a Univ of MN employee, and that would of course be a basic respect for others.


As a devote Catholic I am deeply saddened by your recent statements. I respect everyone's free will to believe what they believe but you have crossed the line from personal belief to attacking and degrading the very most important facet of my belief. I fully support your right to your beliefs and will gladly fight to protect those rights but please lets keep this a discussion. I can disagree with your beliefs but I would never destroy something you hold a sacrosanct like Darwin's personal diaries for example just because I don't fully agree with him.


that a scientist-- someone in the business of seeking truth-- is so utterly blind to it.


Do you find yourself amusing? I bet you do.
Your latest , about the Holy Eucharist , just makes you repugnant.

Do you have RESPECT for anything, anyone, yourself? This is not a rhetorical question.
Why must you offend?

I'm sorry that you are an atheist. I'm sorry that the Church hurt you in some way.
We will pray for you, your pathology is in need of prayer.

"Love One Another ,as I Have Loved You!"


I wish to express my alarm and concern over the hateful comments of Dr. PZ Meyers concerning the desecration of the Eucharist. As a faithful Catholic and a trained cell biologist (MS Biochemistry, University of Idaho, Ph.D. Molecular and Cellular Biology, Arizona State University), I am deeply offended at Dr. Meyers' intention to desecrate that which millions of Catholics across the country (and billions of Catholics across the world) hold as most sacred. I am certainly a believer in the freedom of speech. However, this hatred goes too far. The University of Minnesota, I am sure, values diversity in thought and in life. Dr. Meyers' comments and intentions far eclipse academic freedom, free speech, and civility. How can he claim tolerance when he is being completely intolerant of Catholic belief and practice? He is targeting a specific group of people for their beliefs and is attacking them for the sole purpose of denigrating them. I don't have a problem that Dr. Meyers would disagree with me about almost everything. The university is a setting where different ideas are to be weighed and debated. However, Dr. Meyers is only concerned with hatred and bigoted attack. I wonder what the response of the University of Minnesota would be if the group he was attacking were a minority, or Jewish, or Muslim, or gay? With the publicly expressed opinions and intentions of Dr. Meyers, how would one expect a Catholic student to be treated by him? Clearly as a parent and academic, I could never support anyone going to the University of Minnesota if these are the kinds of faculty members it employs.


Imagine, if you will, a steel ball the size of the earth.

Every 1,000 years, a sparrow flies by and lightly brushes its wing against the steel ball.

When those light brushes wear the steel ball down to nothing, eternity will have just begun.

That's a long, long, long time. Some of us will be spending that time in happiness with God in heaven and some of us will be spending that time suffering with Satan in hell.

Showing disrespect for God and the Eucharist is a good way to end up with Satan.

What college did you attend that taught you to be so disrespectful? It does not bespeak of the dignity we would expect of a college professor.


ou are nothing but a coward. You would not choose a Muslim symbol to desecrate because you would be in grave danger. You pick a Catholic symbol because you know that Catholics will just pray for you.

Your actions constitute a hate crime. There will be no prosecution because hate crime laws were designed to put White Christian males in jail.


PLEASE Prof.Myers, Use your wonderful God given gift of learning to find out exactly what it is you plan to desecrate... NOT what you THINK it is!


I'm writing about your blog post from July 8 ("IT'S A FRACKIN' CRACKER!"). This is not a piece of hate mail, and I'm sorry that you're receiving hate mail. I don't have a very complete understanding of the incident, but, based on what seems to have happened, while I don't approve of what Mr. Cook did, I disapprove of the efforts to go after him, and I even admire your willingness to stick up for the young man -- while not admiring some of the rhetoric you use while doing so - which I find in places to be needlessly abusive (and yes, I do recognize some on the other side are needlessly abusive, too). But what really concerns me are your proposals in your penultimate ("So, what to do") paragraph. It's as if your goal in writing that paragraph was to see if you could meet (and *perhaps* even surpass!) the stupidity and meanness of the worst of the examples you took to task earlier in your post. I had planned to argue to you that you should rescind that plan, complete with careful analyses of when and how we should take into account the beliefs of others that we consider to be false in deciding how to treat the people in question. But I've read some of your blog posts, and based on my sense of your character, I have faith that you need no argument from me here: If you just take a deep breath and objectively consider what you wrote, keeping in mind the many Catholics (and other Christian too, for that matter) who are innocent in this matter but whom you would be needlessly hurting by what you propose (even if their being hurt depends upon beliefs they hold that you take to be obviously false), I am confident you will be able to see the light. On the other hand, if I have read your character wrong (as I'm often inclined to do, being disposed to being overly charitable [perhaps even gullible] in my judgments of people, as many Christian friends have told me, based on my admiration for important aspects of Prof. Dawkins's character), and you still think yours is a great idea after a little consideration, you are probably beyond the reach of the help of any argument I could produce, anyway.


Hey you cocksucker! I am not holy but I have respect for the religion. Go ahead and do what you intend to and then see what transpires, Ego te provoko, you worthless piece of tenured shit.


We pray for your soul. Jesus loves you, and He tells us that we are to love you too.
We feel sorry for you, that evidently you believe life is just about yourself and the "here and now". What do you have to look forward to? Old age? What comes after that???
We pray for your conversion,


It is very rude to make fun of someone's religion, even if you do not agree with that belief. Very sad indeed.


I wonder what has caused you to be filled with so much hate that it would drive you to these childish antics. One would think someone of your intelligence would find something more productive to to with his time.

I have no love for the Catholic church and don't like organized religion. But I do have Catholic friends and coworkers and they seem like nice people.

If for some reason you are offended by the Catholic church then I suggest you go out and get thicker skin. I have learned a long time ago that being offended at every little thing does nothing but cause medical problems and a shorter life.


I read today that you made disparaging remarks about the holy Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ to every Catholic. Your remarks are extremely offensive, hateful, and immoral to say the least. Its hard to believe you could say such things rather than sticking to your area of study. Clearly you have a dislike for the Catholic Church and God for that matter. I sincerely pray for you this day that you will find God in your life. I hope you consider writing an apology regarding your remarks.


I think you underestimate the importance of mythology and ritual in the human condition. Yes, even your human condition. After all, your diploma is just a bit of cloth and ink, isn't it. I don't suppose you'd mind if I just whip one up in my basement and start teaching biology, do you? Oh that's right, yours was consecrated by the Dean in a Late-Middle-Ages ritual. There is a lot of wrong in this situation, but you are also wrong. Please read some Joseph Campbell.

p.s., I'm not a religious whacko, I am in fact a VP of engineering and also a computer science graduate student working on my dissertation in theoretical computer science at night. I do attend church, but not Catholic; I personally don't believe in transubstantiation. The communion ritual is an important part of the Christian church's ability to propagate itself and has been effective for many centuries. As a biologist you should respect that.


Nice Job Mr. Myers!

Thank you for finally showing those Catholic jerks what's what!!! You're the man! You're so smart! How did you ever figure the whole thing out! "Kick the pope in the balls!!!" Way to bring that holy roller back to earth! You must be like, the smartest person I've ever written an email to, you obviously have such a wide and deep understanding of history and the world! I mean....you're a big important professor!!! At UM!!! That Catholic Church and its 2,000 year history has nothing on you man, you've got them pinned.

Don't worry, you didn't make yourself look like a totally ignorant fool. You looked smart! And witty! Sacrilege...that's a big word, even for a smart guy like you, did you have to look it up? And don't worry...you didn't sound like a venomous hater, you sounded respectful and accepting of the Catholics, just like I'm sure you do with all people who have different beliefs than yours.....I'm going to go out a trash a mosque, and then key the first car I see in a parking lot that has one of those rainbow stickers on it, just so I can be like you!


I have just read with deep and heartfelt emotion of your intention to desecrate that which us Catholics call the Holy Sacrament of the Altar but which you call a "Frackin' Cracker". Please! I appeal to your better sense of respect for all to refrain from this act which is already causing me and those of the Catholic Community great pain. The intention to do this causes deep grief to those of us who hold the belief that the Host, once consecrated, is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I am not asking you to believe this. Far from it. I am simply asking you to respect our beliefs and to refrain from committing this act of anger and utmost disrespect towards that which over 1 billion people world wide hold sacred.

Of course you are entitled to your views on the situation which occured last week in relation to a student taking the Host from the Church and "holding it hostage" and its consequences and rightly so, but please understand that we have our views too and, greater than views, they consititue the source and summit of all we believe. In carrying out the sacrilege you threaten upon that which we consider Holy, you can in fact carry out no greater act of disrespect and hurt. You hit right at the core of our beliefs which I know you understand we are entitled to hold and believe without any disrespect or violence. Perpetrating this act will hit us all very much and will cause many of us much grief. Is this truly what you want? Are you wondering how will we respond? There is only one way we can respond and that is the way of love and forgivness. There should not ever be any violent repercussions form anyone who calls themselves Catholic. We will forgive your actions yet we will grieve over them deeply.

I finish this mail literally on my knees, begging of you to reconsider your proposed actions and turn away from the feelings of anger you have towards us. You are certainly a man of respected intelligence and your position in life has confirmed this. Your position in the world may not change as a result of your actions but remember that every decision must be followed with personal responsibility and the carried memories that you have inflicted a very great wound upon many hearts.
If, at present as you read this, there are already any Hosts in your possession, please return them to their rightful place i.e. the nearest Catholic Church. Simply return them. If you don't wish to apolgise for your actions, don't apologise. Just know that if you do the right thing and return them, many hearts will be most grateful and will not forget your change of heart.


Re: communion wafer... You are one sick man. One day, eventually, you'll have to face what you've said today in an honest light. No, really, you will.


Save yourself some grief. Resign, go find Ward Churchill and just hang out in the same slime hole.


It is disappointing to read of your recent comments. I doubt you would dare say such insulting things about other groups such as Jews, Muslims, or gays but do feel empowered to engage in such a tirade when it comes to Catholics!

The mark of an educated person is the ability to reason and think critically. It seems your education has been deficient.


As a Catholic, I am offended by the insulting and crass comments you recently made about the Holy Eucharist. I firmly believe that this "frackin' cracker", as you described it, is indeed the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. If I am wrong as to the nature and identity of the Holy Eucharist and it is indeed nothing more than a wafer, your comments are still needlessly crass, offensive and incendiary. On the other hand, if I am correct, then you are also guilty of a serious offense against God for even uttering such words.

I urge you to retract and apologize for your comments. I also urge you to exercise more prudence, restraint, respect and charity in the future -- regardless of the target.

I don't know you or what your life is like, so I don't judge you personally. You may be both nice and decent, personally. But your comments were certainly not. I hope this was merely one of those moments we all have during our lives in which we look back and think "that was not one of my better moments."

While I do candidly believe some sort of discipline is in order because of the extreme and public nature of your comments, I will also be praying for your well-being -- both temporal and eternal.


You will discover soon enough what your blasphemy gets you. Since you have said your hateful lies where me and my friends can see them, it will be sooner than you think. You'll wish you had a cracker in Hell!


Rude, hostile, insulting bigotry may get you more page hits, but it hardly contributes much to the public discourse on religion.

If your goal was to simply appeal to the lowest common denominator, then congratulations - you win the internets. I'm sure the suburban rich white teen "rebelz" that infest your comments section are tremendously proud of you.

Thanks for, once again, making it even more difficult to be an atheist in America.


I am in complete disbelief that Professor Myers is still in good standing at your university after his mocking and hateful rampage against Catholicism's central and most sacred doctrine of the Holy Eucharist. I urge you as President of of UM-Morris to not only make him apologize for his remarks but discipline his hateful speech.

Please take a moment to read what Mr. Meyers has posted on his faculty page on your university's website:

"Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?...if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won't be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web."

Is this the standard we can expect from faculty members at your state university?


Mr. Myers:

How old are you? I cannot believe that a "professor," representing his 1) college 2) country

3)state 4) family 5) himself...chooses to throw a temper tantrum which gets international attention. You will desecrate the Eucharist, huh? I live in Germany. We had lots of your ilk running around here 65 years ago...and you may have read about the consequences. Why don't you desecrate the Koran, or a Torah? You do not believe in either of them either, but, like all cowards, you stroke your big Morris, Minnesota ego by attacking the last legal target of predjudice...the Catholic Church. Boy, you must have really been hurt at one time...maybe by someone in the Church. Grow up! Act like an educator. Swallow your pride, admit you said something absolutely stupid, and seek humility.


I hope you weren't serious about what you were threatening to do. I disagree with many different beliefs of people but I respect their right to their beliefs, including your right to disagree. I would not wish you harm or want to deface your property or possessions. You may have wanted to get attention, and that you have. I ask you to reconsider the sacra ledge you proposed, if only because it is hurtful to others. I will pray for you.


I own 4 guns. I bet liberal vermin like you don't own any.


Why would you be so insensitive to Catholics worldwide with your hateful ranting's about something billions of people worldwide hold so dear? I just wanted you to know that your words cause me a profound sadness and I pray you come to feel heartfelt contrition over the pain your words have caused to so many.


Professor Myers is a disgusting, immature guttersnipe. You should put him in the unemployment line post haste.

If he had insulted Jews, or Muslims this wouldn't even be a question...the bum would have been fired.


Come on down to Florida. We know how to welcome bastards like you.....with a bullet.


Try desecrating anything Muslim and see what happens.


Why are you against Catholics? I'm sure we don't care how you worship. You must just be trying to get attention.


Just for your information: The main reason the Eucharist is so closely guarded is that they are coveted by those who participate in satanism and the black mass. It's not a "frackin' cracker" to them.

PS. I'm ashamed a professor from a Minnesota University would utter such depraved private thoughts.


I hope that you will consider the abusive and completely unnecessary behavior of Paul Myers in its true light. His hate speech is beyond offensive, even to those of use who are not Donohue-esque zealots.


Please try having the same respect for others that you expect (and demand) for yourself.


On his blog Pharyngula, PZ Myers asked that letters of support for him be sent to you. In good conscience, however, I can't do that. Reading Myers' writings on Pharyngula quickly convinces any reader who doesn't share his faith in Darwinism that the man is an insufferable ass who brings discredit to your university. If you're not ashamed to have him on your faculty, you should be.


Over the past few days controversy has erupted over your stated intention to obtain a concecrated host from a Catholic Church and to desecrate it live on the web.
Having read your original post on the subject I find the level of disrespect displayed towards Catholics absurd, it abounds with irational ad hominum attacks and falls short of the standards that students such as myself expect from those who teach us.
Whilst I can understand that some of your views of Catholics have been coloured by abusive comments from my fellow co-relgionists, it could be argued that you have intentionally baited them with your less than tactful comments and that you bought this torrent of absue on yourself.
Whilst I respect you as a professor in your established field, I would also ask that you respect my beliefs and those of my co-religionists


Aren't you cool! Another big-mouthed Christian buster. Play with the Sacrament, demon boy. Everything will play out in the end.


Are you by chance a former Catholic?
What happened in your past to turn your soul to sludge?
You are in my prayers.


If you would like the controversy which your hateful anti-Catholic bigotry has initiated to go away immediately, all you have to do is recant your pledge to desecrate the Eucharist and apologize to the Catholics and others whom you have offended.

Hopefully you are man enough to do that. You're in my prayers, Paul, for you must truly be a broken vessel. I am very sorry for you, and for the distraction from your academic career which your unfortunate vitriol has visited upon you.


Just because you do not appreciate the Eucharist, is no reason to assault what is so precious to me.
The Eucharist is not a "thing" , but a PERSON....Jesus Christ,.. who is truly present in that form of Bread.
Even though you don't have the faith to believe it doesn't take away the fact.
I don't live in your house,....but that doesn't give me the right to spray-paint your house.
Why are you so offended for the student???
Isn't it REALLY your own pride and anger with God that you are not the man you are supposed to be???
Do you resent the fact that God lives whether or not you "allow" Him to?
The Eucharist is the MOST PRECIOUS POSSESSION EVER to HAVE. It is my MOST PRECIOUS
POSSESSION--and to desecrate Him is to mutilate me.


I understand how when people don't understand something, they are scared of it. I've made that connection with you and the Holy Eucharist.
I'm disappointed that you would, as a respected professor, make hateful remarks that offend not only Catholics, but all people who hold thier sacred tradition and beliefs close to thier heart.
I'm disappointed with your actions, but I pray that one day your heart will be opened. You are free to believe anything that you would like...a joy of living in the United States, even if it's that you believe the Eucharist is a frickin cracker, but your proposed hate acts against that "cracker" are a bit extreme in behavior.


I DONT SPEAK FOR ALL CATHOLICS BUT MOST OF US HAVE HAD SOME GREAT EDUCATIONS FROM GRADE SCHOOL TO GRADUATE LEVEL.

WERE EVEN RANKED SECOND BEHIND THE JEWISH COMMUNITY. WE RESPECT BILL THATS WHY HE SPEAKS FOR MOST OF US AND WE APPRECIATE IT. WE SEE IN YOUR COMMENTS THAT WE NEED THE BILL'S OF THIS WORLD TO FIGHT FOR US EVEN THOUGH WE CAN DO APPOLOGETICS FOR OURSELVES.

WE RESPECT OTHERS AND WE EXPECT THE SAME FROM ANYONE ELSE. ITS EXPECTED OF MOST PEOPLE IF NOT ALL PEOPLE'S TO RESPECT OTHERS. ITS TO BAD THE

WORLD IS LOOSING THIS RESPECT.

ANYWAY WE EXPECT WHICH DOESNT ALWAYS HAPPEN THAT OTHERS RESPECT THAT TINY LITTLE WAFER

BECAUSE WE RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE TRADITIONS. IT PROBABLY COMES FROM THE STUDY OF ANTHROPOLOGY AND ARCHAEOLOGY THAT I SAY THIS. HMM I GUESS AS A CATHOLIC I REALLY CAN SPELL THESE

WORDS WITH INTELLIGENCE AND UN-

DERSTANDING. I GUESS IM NOT SOME

IGNORANT CATHOLIC WITH A SUPERSTITIOUS NATURE. WOW I WONDER WHERE THIS CAME FROM?

MUST BE COMPLETELY EVEOLUTION AND NOT REVELATION. PERSONALLY

IT IS REVELATION.


You just don't have the backbone to attack the Muslims do you? A bit of a castrati are we? Coward


As a practicing Roman Catholic, I am socked to hear that you have threatened to desecrate the Holy Eucharist. I find this as shameful bigotry against the Catholic Church.

I respect all mainstream religion in out fine country. I hope you will start respecting mine. There is no room for this type of behavior in our country. I urge you think about what is causing you to act the way you are to sincerely apologize to all Roman Catholics.


You are very misguided. Why you would chose to attack others beliefs and show such hostility is beyond me to understand. You need to show a little control and self respect. Any how I will say a few rosaries for you and perhaps you will get well again. Best Regards


May you come to know the love of Jesus in the miracle of the Eucharist. All are welcome!


Mr. Myers...If you have a problem with religion why not rationally debate it, instead of attacking the most important part of our Catholic religion, the "sacred host, the Eucharist" which to us is the "Body & Blood of Jesus." Please, persecution and hate will not address your complaints and disagreements. Let's act civilly...God bless...By the way, when I first read about your diatribe, I thought of St. Paul. I do believe God can work miracles...I'll be praying for you...Please pray for me...


Hey, professor... I dare you to show the same sacrilege with "equal fanfare" to the Muslim religion. Perhaps you can dunk a Koran in a jar of urine and post that on the web with some funny comments? Oh wait.... I guess your version of atheism doesn't include hating a religion that would surely respond by threatening your life and limb huh? You pitiful, immature coward.

You just made this Catholic's prayer list. You may make it to heaven yet brother. Peace.


I think you should do the right thing and apologize for your hateful remarks toward Catholics. I don't know what brought about your hatred, but I guarantee you, it will never make you happy. Turn it around.


if your college wont fire you ill come out there and take care of the problem for them


If you're looking for something to desecrate, why don't you try a Quran? I'll even buy it for you! It won't cost you a thing! Think of the attention you'll get! What? You won't do that? Why? Oh! You're a COWARD! C'mon paulie, put on some big boy pants, cowboy up, grow some balls and just do it. You pick on a true religion of peace and won't do anything to upset followers of a pedophilic so-called "prophet". Count your blessings that Catholics don't behead people, ass hole.


I'll pray that this hatred leaves you.


You're a bigot and a hypocrite. Try insulting Muslim's and then I'll support your biased attack against Catholics.


Dear Professor Myers:

Or, should I say, "intellectual pygmy" masquerading as a professor?

I undersatnd you want a Eucharistic host to desecrate and insult my religion" ? Well, professor, I shall be happy to provide you with one in person. Please name the place and time.

Since you are brave behind your blog, threatening Bill O' Donahue of the Catholic League saying you would be happy to kick him in the balls, why don't you try that with this Catholic veteran? I will be in Minnesota for the Republican convention and would be pleased to deliver your special host to you.

I'm really looking forward to coming to Minneapolis in September. Hoping you take me up on my offer...


You sound like a terribly insecure little man. I am astonished that the University would even employ you. By the way, who gives a rats ass about zebrafish? You ought to do extensive research about how an idiot like you survives to adulthood?


Sir, if any of what we've learned is accurate, you should be ashamed of yourself.
You are just another example of what is wrong with our culture; freedom out of control.


idiot.


After reading several of your blog posts, I find that you compose them with all the grace and wit of a third-grader who has just learned some dirty words. I encourage you to continue your Don Quixote-like crusade against religion, for the venom you spew does more harm to your cause than anything else. How can a man who supposedly lauds "reason" waste his time insulting a God he doesn't believe in? Thank you for keeping the stereotype of the angry, bitter atheist alive. Kudos.


I am not sure what would cause someone to act so hateful toward Catholics and our Lord Jesus Christ. Others are angry at you, but I am very sad. I feel so sorry for you. One does not have to believe in Jesus if they choose not to. No on will try and force you to believe in Jesus Christ nor that the Eucharistic host is His body, blood, soul, and divinity. So why is it that you must try and stir up problems? I cannot believe that it is because your life is so boring. You must have been hurt by someone and for that I am sorry. I will pray for your healing and that you will not feel such hate.


GET A REAL JOB!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you for your comment regarding the desecration of the Eucharist. I am sure Jesus has heard it and will respond accordingly. It may hurt a little, but don't worry, we Catholics will pray that you'll still live long enough to repent. If you don't apologize, we Catholics won't be able to see you from where we spend our eternity. You won't have a lick of a chance.

Your comments to Bill Donohue were ridiculous, dangerous (for you) and really not worthy of comment. But - well - since I like Bill and I pray for you - well - maybe someone should comment!


A Professor????
At a university???!!!
What a shame!!!!!!!!


Are you so starved for attention that you must take other folks faith and ridicule it? I know I should respond by prayer for you, but right now I am just puzzled. What is your purpose? Like anti-Semitism, bigotry, prejudice, etc., it's folks like you who need a watchdog like Donahue. I am glad he is there. I hope like the rest of your ilk, you will be "taught" how inflammatory your words are, since you seem to be oblivious to any other intelligent reasoning.


I will try not to say anything that will encourage you and your counterparts in attacking the Catholic Church or the faithful. I think it's so sad that you are ignorant and intolerant of things other people hold dear to their hearts. Let me give you an example.

I live in Kansas. Lots of jokes about that - I can take it. It's beautiful here and I have no desire to live anywhere else. From the west side of the state where the July air can be hot and dry during the day and cool and calm at night, to the east side of the state where the towns are bigger, there's more vegetation, more "culture", and more people than cows. I've stayed in New York City, Washington, DC, Atlanta, GA, etc. I lived for a short time in Ft. Worth, TX. People in New York City are great at making jokes about Kansas, but they've never been here to know how glorious the lifestyle is. Most of the people I know here in Kansas are well-traveled; we know what "the big city" is like - we've been there, done that. But how many people in the city can understand the simple joy of sitting on the porch and waving at neighbors as they take their evening walk or how much fun a 4th of July celebration is on the town square? I have relatives who live on the east coast and it took them a week to relax and enjoy life; they were so keyed up. Even in Wichita (the biggest city in Kansas), people know when wheat harvest is and pray for good weather for the farmers. We pull together and we pray together. Catholic or Protestant, we hope the best for each other.

You on the other hand, seem to be happiest when causing other people pain or consternation. Why? What has happened to you in your lifetime that you are so bitter you have to attack another's beliefs? We probably don't want to go there. It just makes me wonder and feel so sad.

Catholics have not asked you to give us anything, so just let us be! Isn't that what the United States is all about? If you don't like it, maybe you should live somewhere else.


I just want you to know that I and my family will be praying for you. God bless you.


You could use a little more tact and manners in your current PR debacle.

Your first amendment rights do not insulate you from looking foolish.

Don't like what you are hearing? Look in a mirror or videotape yourself before you go in public.

Catholics do not hate you ,but you are courting their indignation by your stupidity as your proposed

anti catholic sacrilege.


I see you love getting attention. Were you deprived of it as a child? Do you think your family would be proud of your puerile , offensive behaviour?
Is that how they raised you? You owe Catholics and indeed, all decent minded human beings an apology for your ignorant comments and antics.

What this all boils down to in the end is that you are just a silly old man clamouring for public attention.

My hope is that, aside from mockery, you shall be deprived of it.


You are a monster. We need another Inquisition to root out idiots like you (and anyway, the Church only excommunicated heretics and witches, then handed them over to the state for punishment. We never executed them directly). How dare you insult the Lord God like that. Losers like you will suffer. I hope and pray that this will loose you your job and your career.


What have we Catholics done to you? Why do wish to desecrate the Eucharist? You probably know that we believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. To desecrate it would be the vilest act you could ever commit against us. Please respect our religion as we respect yours and everybody's.


Myers, your opinion of God will be your undoing. There are more than 5 Billion people on this planet that belives God has given you and all others the capability to move civilization forward in His Name.

I can't help feeling sorry for you, to desacrate God, Creator of the World will be delt with in His time.


Please do NOT desecrate the Eucharist in any way. Please, I beg you to NOT damage what is So PRECIOUS to me.
It is usually disillusion with unrelated issues that causes people to strike out. But that is exactly what Jesus came to address,..
and to offer healing and purpose.
If you only KNEW....
I will pray for you and for whatever healing of lost dreams you may be enduring.


I understand that you accept, on Faith, the unproven Theory of Evolution. I
haven't made up my mind about it yet, as we haven't quite found those pesky
"missing links"--I like to keep an open mind about all theories until one is
proven beyond all doubt. However, after reading your illogical and puerile
rants against Catholics recently, I've come to the conclusion that you must
be partially right about evolution. I don't know about the rest of us
folks, but you are most certainly just a few swings away from being a
monkey.


Since you mentioned fatwa, I bet you don't have the balls to descreat a Koran. They are a people of the Book also. Go ahead, I dare you.


You shouldn't open your mouth and trash our beliefs. And if you have balls, go after the Muslim....or I forgot you scare. You are a very smart individual, build something with it, but don't pull everyone down with you.


I believe the consecrated host is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. I don't care whether you believe it or not. In this country we have freedom of religion. I don't approve of anyone taking my religion away from me.


If this is not the Paul Myers who is making news today for planning to desecrate The Eucharist, forgive me.

If it is, may God forgive you.

Only the general contempt for Catholics in this culture allows you to call it a cracker. It is in fact the body of Christ.

Would you degrade something Jewish? How about something representing the nation of Islam? Many web sites are alerting people like me to contact your employer to decry your blasphemy, and I just did.

Perhaps atheists like you are praying you have tenure...if not, I would be looking in the Chronicle for a new piece of chalk.


I am writing to express my concerns about Professor Myers announcement of his intentions to desecrate the Eucharist. Such a remark is not consistent with the cultural competency that an institution of higher learning should represent. As a psychologist, I am quite familiar with University of Minnesota's academic reputation. Please take steps to defend the integrity of your institution by appropriately disciplining such bigoted, hateful, and culturally insensitive remarks. Fortunately, the Catholic religion teaches the virtues of peace, tolerance, and charity. Such threats against some other religions would be met with force, which is why I think it not a stretch to assume that Catholicism is subject to such cowardly attacks.


Why are your people so fowl towards Catholics?


Sir?; Shame on you! May God forgive you and I will pray for you. You should seek help soon


Does it make you nervous knowing that so many people are praying for you? You might just get converted!!


Why don't you stick to your professional credentials and expound on something you know about and want to know about. Leave the rest of us alone.

We haven't done you any harm in following our religion as Catholics. I don't get the beef. Furthermore, you are a "public servant" paid by the taxpayers of Minnesota.

Your unprofessional and disrespectful attitude toward Catholics and the Catholic Faith looks really bad and the taxpayers have got to be wondering why are we paying this guy?

As a matter of fact I am wondering that very same thing about 90% of the professors in the United States who seem to have become experts on everything except what they are supposed to teach.

So please, BUG OFF.


thought you professors were all liberal, feel good about yourself and let others do what they want types. How come you are the total opposite? Talk about disrespectful, non liberal, non productive, divisive speech and thoughts. You should be ashamed.
In this world where everybody works for inclusion, you distance yourself and disrespect millions of people who, as Catholics respect the Host as THE Body and Blood of Christ ?
How dare you!


I am sponsoring efforts to get you fired for your comments on the CATHOLIC EUCHARIST - free speech has nothing to do with your idiotic & disrespectful comments - Now just go pick on the Muslims - or are you too afraid - you must be - you assinine PHD - too afraid to affront a religious belief that would terminate you. God Bless


DO YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO DO SOMETHING SIMILAR REGARDING THE MUSLIM RELIGION?
I DOUBT YOU DO, YOU KNOW THEY WOULD LOP YOUR HEAD OFF !
ATTACKING CHRISTIANS, ESPECIALLY CATHOLICS IS EASY FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU !


Don't you have anything better to do with your life? I would be interested to know what religion you were raised. If a person has a happy and fruitful life they don't go out of there way to degrade anothers religion. - - God Bless America and you. - -


You want to desecrate my Lord & Savior?
Well, I'm going to say a prayer for you because, I know
you do not know what you are doing.
Sham on you........
Snap out of it.....


I feel compelled to write you to express the offense and hurt I feel as a Catholic for your apparent disregard and callous for what I and other Catholics hold most dear -- the sacrament of communion. I have no idea what motivates your hatred and scorn for the Church and her beliefs.

I can only hope and pray that whatever your issues are, some resolution can be found which dissipates the tension and prevents more words and possible actions which are offensive to many sincere believers, and, as one who has spent an hour each day in a Catholic church or chapel in prayer for the past 35 years feels confident to say, to the Lord himself.


I don't really know who you are other than you don't like Catholics or Jesus Christ. That is your right in a free society.

But I would like to ask you not to desecrate the Holy Eucharist. We Catholics know it is the body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus. Your threats to desecrate Jesus is extremely hurtful to us. Advancing a free, good, and charitable society comes from respecting others not mocking their belief and desecration what others hold dear.


Hello Bad Boy Myers,

You need help, what do you want? Jesus (only son of God) gave his young life to save every one, even you!

God the father is sad that you Mr.. Myers have sided with Hate.

As a good Catholic Man I must Pray for you Mr. Myers, who hates Christianity.

Hells gates are wide open for hateful people Mr. Myers.

Hope to meet you in Heaven Mr. Myers.


I find it hard to believe that there is such anti Catholic and anti God hatered being spued by anybody let alone supposedly 'educated' people. I will work to let as many people as possible know there are still people like you taking advantage of the freedom America offers. Eventually people like you get their just deserve. I hope you get yours sooner than later.


If you really think the Blessed Eucharist is just a "farckin' cracker" then I challenge you to do a little scientific research...

beginning here -> http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm

Check especially this sight here, -> http://www.acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html
if you have the balls and intellectual integrity to stand up to what you'll find.

In short Mr. Myers what you'll find, if you are honest with yourself, is that you're wrong. It's not just a "frackin' cracker". It's Him who made you.

You really need to get your head around what that means. In the mean time I'll pray for you.


I was outraged to learn of your call to desecrate a Communion host. Why such hatred against the Catholic Church?

Would you do the same against the Koran and the Islamic faith or the sacred Torah and the Jews? I

Please do not offend Our Lord. I am praying for you.


You're nothing more than a poor, pathetic little coward. You rant that you're going to desecrate the Communion Host knowing full well that the worst that you'll suffer are a few denunciatory editorials and maybe a censure or two. Oh! The horror of it all!! Do you want to demonstrate REAL courage by desecrating a religious symbol? Make an image of Mohamed (one serious affront to Islam) then desecrate it (another even more serious affront to the "religion of peace"). Of course, that would expose your person to actual, corporeal danger. What's the matter? Don't you have the stomach for real confrontation? You're pathetic.


Bill Donohue defends the Catholic Faith and does a wonderful job of it. When he sees disrespect or irreverence, especially in the extreme, he takes action.

Your threat to desecrate a consecrated Host is a most vicious and hateful action for which you know in your heart you need to apologize.

Please retract your threat of sacrilege and apologize to those you have offended. Most of all, please apologize to your God and Creator for your blasphemy. He doesn't deserve it.


Dear Little Paul,

It appears that you are a naughty little man and have been doing things you shouldn't be doing! Shame on you!

Once you get your unique proclivities for sin under control, you will certainly have a greater appreciation for your own existence. Surely, your current brazen boast and desire to desecrate the Eucharist, stems from some unresolved childhood trauma. There are ways to find peace and forgiveness. They, that hurt you, do not represent the Loving Father in Heaven. Clearly, your hatred flows from inside and is affecting your very dignity as a human being.

You have been made in the Image and Likeness of God. The angry feelings you have cannot diminish this Truth. He created you for greatness and gave you intelligence. I challenge you to take that intelligence and go searching for the existence of God.

In the mean time, I adjure you to a life with honor and be a man that young people can admire, instead of an embittered curmudgeon, whining about how terrible things have been for you.


I will pray for you.


You are a very little man. I will pray for you.


I was wondering why you would want to do something that would be so painful to so many people. Anyway, whatever the reason, I will remember you in my prayers so that whatever it is that causes you so much hatred can be reconciled in yourself, before you hurt yourself as well as others.


You need to repent and give your life to God. You just may find yourself in "Hell" for what you have done to God's church when you die.


I am a deacon in the Anglican Church. I want to voice my concern and disapproval of Professor Myers' comments regarding his intentions toward the Holy Eucharist. I can only imagine the discomfort that this will cause his students who profess the Christian faith.

As a publicly supported university, the University of Minnesota Morris is to provide a safe learning environment for all of its students. While there needs to be a spirit of academic inquiry and freedom in this institution of higher learning, Professor Myers' comments hold no academic value although they do create a hostile learning environment for Christian students. I can only imagine the turmoil I would face if I were a biology student at your institution and had to study under a professor who set out to make a mockery of my faith in such a manner. While I respect one's freedom of speech, as a professor at your institution, Professor Myers has a responsibility to consider the impact of his words and actions on his students. I agree with others that what Professor Myers is involved in is nothing less than a form of hate speech.

I trust that you will take the concerns of the Christian community into consideration as you consider your response to this matter. Thank you for your consideration.


I want to thank you for reminding me how wonderful it is to be Catholic. Your anger toward the Eucharist makes clear to me how powerful It must be. I promise to pray for you when I receive Him tomorrow at Mass. I promise to become a better Catholic in response to your promise of desecration.
May God give peace to you!


If you want to have anti Catholic views, fine. do so on your own time.


I am emailing you to pray for you and that God may reveal to you His mysterious love and mercy.

Jesus, I Trust in You. Jesus, we trust in You. Jesus, in the most holy sacrament, have mercy on us. God the Father, for the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world. Eternal Father, we offer you the body, blood, soul, and divinity of your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallow be Thy Name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our Daily Bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen. Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou among woman and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus, holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. All Glory be to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever will be, world without end. Amen.


Fatwa? Is this the go-to accusation of those who believe Catholics are credulous, cracker-munching provincials? Your response to Bill Donahue was puerile bravado and begs the original question: why would an educator choose to denigrate the sacred belief of others irrespective of his own convictions? The vitriol you spewed regarding the student who came under scrutiny evinced a total ignorance of Catholic teaching and, worse, a reductionist mentality that conflates religious faith with irrationality. You are a prisoner, sir, of your strictured understanding. My condolences.


I do not appreciate you bigoted and religious intolerance of any faith or credible believe, especially the Catholic Faith. Your intent to obtain and desecrate a host is at least unbecoming of a University professor. A professor is supposed to show tolerance and respect for other viewpoints, let along a long standing and respected religion as the Catholic faith.

You indeed show your self to be a miscreant of society and certainly do not deserve to be teaching anything anywhere as far as I and millions of Americans are concerned.

Where did you learn this trash of hate from anyway?

May God have Mercy on your soul.

You won't get any threats from me, unless it is to see that you loose your job you do not deserve.


Are you in love with yourself. Satan has tried for over 2000 years to destroy us (Catholic Church) and has failed miserably. You will, too. Saint Michael defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him. Mary, Mother of God, protect your Church from those that wish us harm.


Hey, fella, we're praying for you.

Your problems obviously run deep. It's all very sad, but there's only so much anyone can do to help you.


being that you are clearly an egotistical little man and I am loathe to give it to you but I still am compelled to say, it is not a "fricken cracker" to millions of Roman Catholics nor is it to me "Professor".

If you are so brave, why don't you steal a prayer rug from a local mosque and defile that?
Of course you wouldn't dare do that because you haven't any balls and the islamists would REALLY killyou, unlike Catholics.....You are nothing more than a typical liberal jerk from Minnesota...Your head is like the state you live in, full of holes.


You should be checked out by a very good psychiatrist. Your mind is indeed in trouble. You now have had your 15 minutes of fame. What next? You should be praying for your life.


Please respect people who believe with their heart and soul, of the transubstatiaton miracle at our Holy Mass each day of the week, the real presence of our Creator is being received by all of us who are baptized in the Apostolic Catholic Church, we believe in God the Father almighty and all the saints. We ask for the conversion of souls, and pray for you. Thank you.


I love America. It is the only country in the world where the intellectually inferior and sublimely mediocre can get an advanced degree. You prove the theory that it is possible to be educated beyond one's intelligence.

Have a nice angry day!


You are really fucked now. Lock your doors at night, and check under your car before you turn the ignition key.


I would pray for you, but it is too late. You are damned.


I dare you to broadcast to the world your intention to show some real contempt for religion by wiping your backside with a picture of Mohammed and some pages from the Koran. You'll get the world- wide fatwa you are whining about and the front page of every newspaper would have a picture of your decapitated body for all to see. Or do you only have the "courage" to insult those who you know would never hurt you (nasty emails notwithstanding) no matter how vile you are. For the record, I'm not a Catholic.

Jesus will always forgive your vileness; Mohammed will cut your stupid head off. Got guts or are you just another phony anti-Christian warrior ?


I am writing this to express my deep outrage and sorrow for your recent call for desecration of the Eucharist and the offer to post examples of this abuse on your website. This is truly a deep wound to our Lord, Jesus Christ who we believe is truly present in the Eucharist, as well as a very hateful act toward our Catholic faith. You would not dream to express such hatred toward Islam or any other religion, so why are you concentrating on mine? I am sure this does not agree with university policy or mission! I respectfully ask that you apologize for your hateful remarks and refrain from making more in the future. Perhaps if you educated yourself on the Catholic faith, you would understand better what a gift the Eucharist truly is, and I would challenge you to do so as a man who values education. I will pray that you develop more tolerance and understanding, and less hate and vindictiveness.

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Behavioral Psychologist @ #454

"Science doesn't exist to do battle with religion. Darwin would be mortified to know with what actions PZ has associated his name. Darwin may be your hero, PZ, but he would disown you as a disciple."

Up until that little gem, you almost had me.

I just want people to stop laughing and slapping PZ on the back and start realizing that PZ is not doing atheists any real favors.

I don't remember electing you to speak for the rest of us "atheists". I think we can decide that on our own without your "outrage", thanks. PZ does us "atheists" a huge favor every day he continues to fight religious nonsense and "dumbfuckery". This incident included. Speak for yourself.

I just seem to be in a substantial minority questioning the wisdom of him saying it.

Awww... how sweet it is of you to reduce your venom-spewing dialogue down to the innocuous "merely questioning the wisdom of him saying it". Don't sell yourself short, dude... you were a downright self-righteous prick for quite a while there... stand up and be proud! Don't water it down now.

By Celtic_Evolution (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Holy crap!!!!

@Fr. J

For those who think that PZ is being threatened I would ask: do you really honestly take it seriously?

Would you like to try it out if it's so safe? Apparently all you have to do is point to some religious wacko's trying to destroy someones life over a cracker, on the internet.

He, and all of you, know that PZ is perfectly safe attacking Catholicism. Some of the "threats" are obviously pranks or perhaps even hoaxes perpetrated by fellow atheists to make Catholics look bad.

Yeah, that look in the mirror must've been quite hard, I'll forgive you the obvious denial and projection you display to deal with it.

Also if he did express a belief in intelligent design at a biology convention he would be in fear of his job.

Biology conventions are for scientists, ID doesn't qualify as science, it does pass as a carefully cultivated, sectarian christian creation myth in some US states. Although ID'ers are free to go to biology conferences, they never do, even though they are paid through wingnut welfare and don't have to fear for their jobs. Very strange situation there isn't it? Next you'll demand we employ people to teach alchemy and astrology in physics and astronomy class. Academic freedom and all that...

Would you want to comment on how many biology teachers are unable to to their job properly because of threats and harassment condoned, even encouraged, by several christian sects in the US? Maybe about Chris Cormer then? How about the Dover trial?

It is interesting that so many liberals demand "respect" for all points of view, especially their own, and yet give none to their opponents.

You are confusing your strawman for the arguments people here are making. Nobody here demands respect for all points of view, quite the opposite even. You've made enough posts to know this already and yet your so blinded by your ideology that the stupid is dripping from your post. You honestly can't seem to help being a total idiot.

If PZ did something like this to another group his university would discipline him. That's a fact and you all know it.

Man, how deep is that hole that you are digging for yourself supposed to become?! I guess the campus police is having a hard time finding PZ.

Please get over yourself, PZ ridiculed religious wackos for attempting to destroy someones life, even threatening to kill someone over a cracker. You keep reminding us of your particular sect, but we honestly don't care.

By Dutch Delight (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

The fact that people get pissed of when you desecrate their *completely idiotic cracker* is enough reason to desecrate them.

The cracker-morons get pissed? Good. Perfect. Only an idiot would get pissed about such a thing, and those who get pissed mark themselves as idiots and mark their religion as idiotic as well.

Idiotic beliefs *deserve* ridicule, not respect.

Ichthyic,

"at last, someone who understands me!
I was beginning to wonder.

...are you single?"

Denial.

"I just want people to stop laughing and slapping PZ on the back and start realizing that PZ is not doing atheists any real favors."

Ain't gonna happen. And you're awfully presumptious to continually tell the blogger what to write and the audience what to think.

In other words, fuck off.

Hang in there PZ. For each negative comment you receive there are a mountain of people who support you.

As you said.. it is just a cracker.

By bradhouse (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Finally there is marked behavorial development. Tactile sensetivity appears, and the flexions that occurred in uncoordinated individual monotomes during the late segmentation period become orchestrated into rhythmic bouts of tiniwabku.

"Reading this blog is like reading the prose on the wall of the shitter in high school."

And now your handwriting is up there too.

My guess is that these guys on here are being passed over by natural selection - for the football team, no less! - and need a place to vent their frustration.

Small minded, rejected, little angry, cocksuckers (out of necessity, of course - or is it biology?)

By PZ is a fool.... (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Geez, some pots and kettles in this thread, on both sides...

Here are some university policies. If you all mean what you say then these should be changed.

1. UMM is committed to providing a safe environment for all students and employees. It is committed to equal educational access and opportunity to all persons without regard to race, color, religion, national origin, sex, age, marital status, disability, public assistance status, veteran status, or sexual orientation.

#Note that this is followed by procedures to punish those who insult others for ethnicity, sexual orientation etc. So do you think it's okay to disparage black people or homosexuals? Do you think this policy should be deleted?

2. Discrimination and Harassment
Discrimination and harassment on the basis of race, religion, color, sex, national origin, handicap, age, veteran status, or sexual orientation will not be tolerated in UMM housing facilities. Violations of these policies will be referred to the Director of Residential Life and/or the Student Behavior Committee for appropriate action. Also see harassment policies under University Policies and Regulations

Disruptive Behavior
Behavior which is disruptive to other residents and may alarm, anger, disturb, or endanger the safety of others is prohibited. This includes but is not limited to fighting, disruption of meetings, and prank activities.

# So if you harass homosexuals you are punished. But if you harass Catholics...?

3. Public Areas

Public areas in the residence halls consist of all lounges, kitchens, bathrooms, hallways and stairwells. Conduct in these areas is to be appropriate, not offensive and respectful; this includes conversations, language, postings and activities. Also, for everyone's convenience and use, no personal furniture or furniture from your room is allowed to be left in these areas. The cutting and dying of hair is not permitted in any public areas (this includes bathrooms, kitchens and lounges). Public areas, such as the kitchen or lounge area, should not be used for personal hygiene. Please use your designated bathroom.

** Offensive includes (but not limited) derogatory/demeaning remarks, swearing/swear words, private or sexual comments and/or actions**

#So if I use demeaning remarks about homosexuals or women I can be punished. But if I demean Catholics...? You support free speech, so what about insulting minorities? Do you then agree that there should be NO policies about harassment?

I am sure there are also policies applying to faculty and staff. Do you get the point? Many of you demand such special protections for yourselves, but now want to exclude other groups (like Catholics). Does PZ support eliminating such codes or if not will he admit that he has violated his universities code of conduct?

Fr.[?]J

I find liberals are the ones who issue fatwas.

Oh, you mean like the one Pat Robertson issued against Hugo Chavez of Venezuela or like Fred Phelps continually issues against every American who isn't him or Jack Chick issues against a whole bunch of folks including Catholics? Pope Benedict said some pretty harsh things about Muslims a while ago and didn't really recant what he said. So sure, we believe that only liberals issue fatwas. As the Brits say, "Pull the other one, it's got bells on it."

Our belief in the Eucharist doesn't hurt anyone, so one cannot claim that it is a burden on you who don't believe.

There's a saying in the NFL, "You can bullshit the spectators but you can't bullshit the players." There's folks issuing death threats and trying to get PZ Myers fired because of your belief in the magic cracker. There are some pretty smart folks here. Please don't insult our intelligence.

I have to say that I have never, I repeat never, had a civil argument from an atheist. Normally I am personally insulted within minutes. I don't instigate it, so why is that?

I can get you several reasons. (1) In your posts you've accused other people of lying. This tends to annoy people. (2) In your posts you come across as a pompous, patronizing prig. This also tends to annoy people. (3) Lastly, you make it plain that you don't respect atheists, so why should we respect you? In short, sir, you are an ass and make this obvious.

"My guess is that these guys on here are being passed over by natural selection - for the football team, no less! - and need a place to vent their frustration.

Small minded, rejected, little angry, cocksuckers (out of necessity, of course - or is it biology?)"

Hmmm... you could be right. Let me mull that over for a second...

Yeah, I guess you must be right. I'm just way too small minded to think a cookie is also a space wizard.

@ 510

Ahhh... another comment from the witty and enlightened. You go on and keep guessing, buddy... I'm sure it served you well on your GED.

Small minded, rejected, little angry, cocksuckers (out of necessity, of course - or is it biology?)

M-O-O-N... that spells homophobe.

By Celtic_Evolution (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"I would pray for you, but it is too late. You are damned."

AWW, IS PZ ALREADY ON THE LIST OF NAUGHTY BOYS? IS HE GETTING A LUMP OF COAL AND A LAKE OF FIRE FOR CHRISTMAS?

I always find it saddening to see just how low and morally destitute these people are.

Also, this stuff about omg-you-are-making-science-look-like-anti-theism is complete tosh. Where, in any of this, did science come up? This was all about a poor young man getting death threats because he didn't eat a cracker. If anything, I would say the Catholics are doing a bang-up job of making religion look like anti-humanism.

So when did it become unjust to criticise stupid ideas?
I mean, if I were to say that anyone who believes the Oreo to be holy must be insane - is this disrespectful?
Aren't we drawn into a never-ending list of things we cannot criticise because people might actually BELIEVE it? And on the flip-side, is the only barrier to this how MANY people believe it?
Or, is it just that - for some reason - people think religious ideas are somehow above "regular" ideas, and that criticism therefore becomes an attack on their person?

My guess is that these guys on here are being passed over by natural selection - for the football team, no less! - and need a place to vent their frustration.

Small minded, rejected, little angry, cocksuckers (out of necessity, of course - or is it biology?)

Did you have something intelligent for the discussion?

Oh and I played football. It was fun but big wall aid climbing is much more of a rush.

Idiot.

It's good to see that the Lavender Mafia is apparently kicking the shit out of Nazinger's gang.

By MAJeff, OM (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"Also, this stuff about omg-you-are-making-science-look-like-anti-theism is complete tosh. Where, in any of this, did science come up? This was all about a poor young man getting death threats because he didn't eat a cracker. If anything, I would say the Catholics are doing a bang-up job of making religion look like anti-humanism."

Well, personally I do think claims of magic words turning a cracker into the body of a 2000 year old dead man are within the realm of science.

"Small minded, rejected, little angry, cocksuckers (out of necessity, of course - or is it biology?)"

I'm trying to understand this insult but it is eluding me. People have to suck cocks to be on the football team? No, wait, they have to suck the biology teacher's cock? To be on the football team?
I'm just not getting it.

Fr. J--

Don't be an idiot. If you act like an idiot, you'll get treated like an idiot.

Rev Fox

I'm don't believe in telling people what to write or what to think. That's just the reason that I don't like religion.

However, if you think that you can be persuasive by just telling people to "fuck off" well then you're as fucking delusional as the theists.

If you think PZ did the right thing by posting what he did, then say it. If not then you're just a waste of bandwidth.

I'm trying to persuade people that PZ didn't really do atheists any favors by posting what he did.

Make up your own mind. It's a free country.

By Ron in Houston (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Fr. J @ 512

Did you miss the part where this blog and PZ's opinions expressed therein are in no way affiliated with the University and therefor not subject in any way to the university policies you so sanctimoniously spewed forth, even if he did violate them (which he did not, by the by)? Or are facts just too bothersome for you to consider?

By Celtic_Evolution (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

What is with this daring you to bash the Koran? Don't be scared of muslims (lack of caps intentional). Be scared of these motherfuckers! They are goddamn cannibal wannabes!!! Fantasizing about eating flesh and drinking blood? They are preparing for something, and it cannot be good for us.

By Steve Ulven (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Here are some university policies. If you all mean what you say then these should be changed.

1. UMM is committed to providing a safe environment for all students and employees. It is committed to equal educational access and opportunity to all persons without regard to race, color, religion, national origin, sex, age, marital status, disability, public assistance status, veteran status, or sexual orientation.

and so who is denying Catholics access? who are the ones trying to deny a safe environment to students?

actually, you're right, not the UMM, but the UCF (which has similar policy statements), should change them to exclude catholics, who they apparently feel can freely violate the "safe environment" clause by assaulting and threatening students.

#Note that this is followed by procedures to punish those who insult others for ethnicity, sexual orientation etc. So do you think it's okay to disparage black people or homosexuals? Do you think this policy should be deleted?

ideology does not equal race, or sexual orientation. You morons always conflate the two incorrectly.


2. Discrimination and Harassment
Discrimination and harassment on the basis of race, religion, color, sex, national origin, handicap, age, veteran status, or sexual orientation will not be tolerated in UMM housing facilities. Violations of these policies will be referred to the Director of Residential Life and/or the Student Behavior Committee for appropriate action. Also see harassment policies under University Policies and Regulations

uh huh, so where, exactly do you see the discrimination coming from?

where has PZ said there shouldn't be any catholic students at UMM?

show me.


Disruptive Behavior
Behavior which is disruptive to other residents and may alarm, anger, disturb, or endanger the safety of others is prohibited. This includes but is not limited to fighting, disruption of meetings, and prank activities.

who disrupted the church service, the guy who wanted to show his buddy the cracker, or the "church leader" who physically assaulted him to try and get it back?

# So if you harass homosexuals you are punished. But if you harass Catholics...?

again, you are conflating issues, see above. decrying an irrational notion is NOT racism or sexism.

I'm not even going to bother tearing apart the rest of your ridiculous "analysis by false analogy".

It's not worth the time, and I've already made the only points that are relevant to your drivel.

"I find liberals are the ones who issue fatwas. Usually against people like myself."

Fr.J is no priest, he throws the word "liberals" around too much to be taken seriously. So, how many of those lefty pinko Maryknoll types have threatened ya, Padre?

As a liberal, the only fatwa I have declared is against chocolate "martinis" and their ilk (there's that word again). You see, I have called on all martini mujahedeen to wage a gin jihad on all false martinis. Like, I mean, they're not bad drinks, but martinis? Never!

By Longtime Lurker (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Ah, the gentle scattering of sniper troll bullets.

Never a problem, of course - they're using blanks and can't aim worth shit.

#510 is a classic specimen.

By John Morales (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Ron
"I'm trying to persuade people that PZ didn't really do atheists any favors by posting what he did."

Why would we need him to do us favours?

Also,

"I think PZ did the right thing by posting what he did".

Yep, still the same old message from the Father. E-mail harrassment is no big deal, boys will be boys. But speaking ill of a cracker is apparently grounds for firing. We don't buy it, Padre.

"Fr. J is a troll pretending to be a priest. Nothing says they have to be smart but they weed the really stupid and crazy ones out."

I'm not sure I quite believe that. Have you ever taken a good look around the country at how many churches there are? Millions. Even in the tiniest little town there could be more than one. And in every church, there's at least one, if not up to a score of clerics. You can't tell me that they're all the cream of intellect. Just like the way there will always be some crazy/stupid teachers that manage to make a career, particularly in rural or otherwise disinvested areas, there will surely be some demented crazies in the priesthood.

Bigprettydave:

"Oh and I played football. It was fun but big wall aid climbing is much more of a rush. Idiot."

Do you have guns, too, big boy???

Are you single?

Listen up people, This whole thing about being upset about a paper printing cartoons about your religion is no reason to be calling for the death of people or getting your diapers all in a bunch. All this outrage is better used to be focused on the teachings of your book.

Hold on, whats the date?

JoJo, if you want patronizing I urge you to read what the atheists have written on this blog. Some people here have lied. For example blaming all wars on religion etc. Many have insulted me personally, including you. I am not hard to get along with and my problem with atheists is not me. They believe that anyone who is a theist is stupid and immediately treat them accordingly. That's the problem. If you want to claim it's okay to disrespect ideas but not persons then show me in your posts. Good night and God bless.

I spewed out my nose when I saw the one about the big steal ball. Too funny. The first thing that came to mind was "Oh, did PZ lose one?"

I'm don't believe in telling people what to write or what to think.

Ron, you fucking liar. You've REPEATEDLY been telling people what to write.
You repeatedly have said you don't think PZ should have said what he said. You have also repeatedly said you didn't think PZ should have said things that he never DID say but which who kept falsely claiming he said...

And several times you have made the request (close to a demand) that PZ write a some sort of retraction or clarification to meet your approval.

If I were like you Ron, I would ask you to retract your statements lest someone thing you represent the rest of us and thereby conclude that ALL atheists are lying assholes.

@Fr. J

#Note that this is followed by procedures to punish those who insult others for ethnicity, sexual orientation etc. So do you think it's okay to disparage black people or homosexuals? Do you think this policy should be deleted?

No and no. Moving on.

# So if you harass homosexuals you are punished. But if you harass Catholics...?

Depends on what you mean by harassing. Not eating a cracker doesn't quite qualify.

#So if I use demeaning remarks about homosexuals or women I can be punished. But if I demean Catholics...? You support free speech, so what about insulting minorities? Do you then agree that there should be NO policies about harassment?

Insulting a group of people just because they belong to a certain group is bigotry. If I followed a bunch of catholics around and said, "those damn catholics are all boy-lovers," that would be an unacceptable harassment. However, criticizing your ridiculous beliefs still fall under my academic freedom.

as far as the comment about PZ "hiding in the insulated academia"...

Well, I'm sure he isn't hiding as much as simply surrounding himself with INTELLIGENT human beings...ya know, those who don't spend their weekends in fairy tale land...oh, I mean churches. lol

On a hunch I went into MS Word and typed "eucharist," "why do you hate Catholics," "you idiot" and "why don't you desecrate a Koran" when that annoying Clippy showed up saying "Hey, it looks like you're writing an anti-Catholic hate letter. Would you like to use the Catholic apologist wizard?"

And here I was wondering why all those letters used the same ridiculous arguments.

For example blaming all wars on religion etc.

Well if someone said that they'd be wrong. but I'd like you to produce that comment. If you can't you're lying.

Find it and right click the date link and then paste it in the comments here. Support your accusations.

They believe that anyone who is a theist is stupid and immediately treat them accordingly.

sometimes by giving them awards:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/molly.php

see re: Scott Hatfield (very much a Christian).

in short, you're not only wrong, you seem bound and determined to shoot yourself in the head to prove it.

Fr. J. the fake priest:

I am sure there are also policies applying to faculty and staff. Do you get the point? Many of you demand such special protections for yourselves, but now want to exclude other groups (like Catholics). Does PZ support eliminating such codes or if not will he admit that he has violated his universities code of conduct?

Yeah we got the point a while ago. You are a troll pretending to be a priest. And lying a lot.

PZ never said one word about excluding Catholics from any public universities. What he did say is, "It is just a frackin cracker."

You could be excommunicated for impersonating a priest but I doubt you are a Catholic either so it doesn't matter.

By Fr. raven (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

They believe that anyone who is a theist is stupid and immediately treat them accordingly.

No, its just you.

Science doesn't exist to do battle with religion. Darwin would be mortified to know with what actions PZ has associated his name.

You have got to be kidding me, that ranks as one of the most inane comments ever. Maybe you missed this, but Darwins name got associated with a lot worse then mistreating some fucking crackers. I guess you just weren't looking while a whole discipline of science and education was being undermined and attacked by fundamentalist fruitcakes and still is.

Don't come whining here when the theocracy arrives at your door. KTHXBAI.

By Dutch Delight (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

I also am upset about the claim that all wars were started by religion.

It's only *most* at best. Could be as few as half.

@ Fr. J...

How can you live with yourself when you lie about calling other people liars... to wit, you said:

Some people here have lied. For example blaming all wars on religion etc.

That is a lie, and a poor one at that. Find the post, anywhere on this blog, where someone, as an atheist, blamed ALL wars on religion. Go on... link to it. I'll wait. Or would you rather just admit that you just made that up for effect? I doubt you've spent more than 10 minutes reading any content on this blog outside of this topic. And that's not an insult, it's an honest observation and a challenge for you to prove you are not a liar.

They believe that anyone who is a theist is stupid and immediately treat them accordingly. That's the problem.

Then I submit that your sampling of atheists is not only small but poor... and makes you more than a little pre-judgmental, I think.

By Celtic_Evolution (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

When Ben Stein said "science leads to killing people" I thought he was an idiot. Now I see what he really meant.

He really should issue a clarification "scientists enrage religious fundamentalists so much they end up wanting to kill someone".

BigPrettyChip: "I do and am married. Sorry sally."

Sally, eh.....pretty homophobic for a "free thinker."

As you idiots would say: "my irony meter just exploded!"

You people are too funny! (in a pathetic and self absorbed sort of way)

(shameless repost)

So when did it become unjust to criticise stupid ideas?
I mean, if I were to say that anyone who believes the Oreo to be holy must be insane - is this disrespectful?
Aren't we drawn into a never-ending list of things we cannot criticise because people might actually BELIEVE it? And on the flip-side, is the only barrier to this how MANY people believe it?

Or, is it just that - for some reason - people think religious ideas are somehow above "regular" ideas, and that criticism therefore becomes an attack on their person?

fr j: For example blaming all wars on religion etc.
revbigdumbchimp: well if someone said that they'd be wrong. but I'd like you to produce that comment. If you can't you're lying. Find it and right click the date link and then paste it in the comments here. Support your accusations.

And while you're at it, fr.j, would you give us an example to support your "it's mostly liberals who declare fatwas" theory?

Wars, eh.....like the 100,000,000 killed by the secular communist states in the past 100 years...

Fucking idiots.

I'm amazed how many of the commenters elevate symbols (Eucharist wafer) over people (children targeted by pedophile priests). I'm haven't heard a fraction of this disgust in reference to the abuse carried out by the clergy of the Catholic Church.

And I thought fundamentalist Protestants had a monopoly on outrage.

"If you think PZ did the right thing by posting what he did, then say it. If not then you're just a waste of bandwidth."

I think PZ has every right to say whatever he wants on his blog. I don't think there is any clear cut "right" or "wrong" thing to do in this situation. But if I were pressed, I'd say, yes, he was right to post his feelings on the subject. And he was even right to suggest that people abscond from Mass with communion wafers, if that was his prerogative. The worst that could happen is that he gets a few wafers in the mail, probably crushed and mangled. It's not as if he's necessarily going to DO anything with them. He didn't even tell anyone to actually disrupt Mass. Most likely, no one will notice anything, and no one will therefore be offended because there are no victims to this "crime".

And at any rate, if anyone actually does such a thing, it would kind of be their responsibility, wouldn't it? Are you the sort of person who wants to ban all violent television and/or video games because some kid might try to emulate them? Give the Pharyngula audience a little credit.

"However, if you think that you can be persuasive by just telling people to "fuck off" well then you're as fucking delusional as the theists."

Please, are we really going to get into a competition over who's more persuasive? Because I really don't care. I suppose I wish I could persuade you to leave, because your concern is overblown, incredibly tiresome, and repetitive, but I'm not going to put any personal stake into the matter.

Hey! Promo wants a body-count contest!

You must be new around here, muffin...

By Celtic_Evolution (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Wait a minute...
My spidey sense is tingling.

Is it possible that Ron for TX is a sockpuppet for Fr J, and perhaps even promo?

I'm gonna pray for you guys. You're so mean and vindictive. How dare you take offense at a rich, powerful group for calling itself a victim over a sacred snack when said group was also historically responsible for some extremely nasty murders, hate crimes and cruelty. You're being downright hateful by speaking up against such a time-honored, long-lasting entity.

I bet you guys wouldn't pull this sort of thing with the Esoteric Order of Dagon. I bet you bunch of spineless cowards wouldn't march into the center of Innsmouth and declare Cthulhu a myth and his followers fools!*

Typical liberal bravery, picking on the little sweet guys who tortured, kidnapped and burned at the stake those who opposed them or had the audacity to believe differently.

*I guess Cthulhu is, himself, possibly spineless. This is neither here nor there.

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Everybody look how stupid this is:

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Pretty stupid. I still can't get over how stupid that is. Oh well!

By Fr. 386sx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

I take it back - secular progressives do NOT even need war for their slaughter...most were liquidations of internal populace.

Atheists are such utilitarian hypocrites - that is what makes them dangerous.

When Ben Stein said "science leads to killing people" I thought he was an idiot. Now I see what he really meant.

He really should issue a clarification "scientists enrage religious fundamentalists so much they end up wanting to kill someone".

No, what Ben Stein meant when he said "Science leads to killing people" is that not thinking "GODDIDIT" as the alpha and omega in science will lead you to 1) reject God, and 2) develop an uncontrollable urge to devise ways of rounding up all of the neighborhood Jewish people and murdering them.

Also... You are catholics (lack of caps intentional). Your group is notorious for not reading the bible at all. This is not to say that none of you do, or that any other denomenations are any better, I do not think many are any better. As with most other denomenations, most of you just sit and listen to what the person up front is saying and that is it. No homework, you showed up to class so you receive an A.

If you are one who goes by this method, there is no reason that any of us should take you seriously. Many of the people that respond here have actually read the entire bible and the apocryphal works. In fact, I would be willing to bet that, percentage-wise, more Atheists have read the entire bible than christians (again, showing my disrespect by lacking caps).

It is hard to take anyone seriously when they are so offended by something someone says and when asked why, they can only provide a canned response (most likely copied from a website or the pulpit), nothing more.

What is going on here is a bunch of people, who are not quite informed completely, reading their e-mail update and responding as they are instructed (blindly, by the way).

So for those of you keeping track here, this is why you are failing. You are, again, following blind demands by someone that you have given power over you. You are not thinking for yourselves or evaluating the entire situation.

Nice job on making yourselves look like asses again!

By Steve Ulven (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Sally, eh.....pretty homophobic for a "free thinker."

As you idiots would say: "my irony meter just exploded!"

You people are too funny! (in a pathetic and self absorbed sort of way)

Like I said, do you have a point or do you want to continue with the playground antics? You are amusing in a "like my 8 year old niece" kind of way but you sure aren't very bright.

Seriously, if you need someone to resub you for your porn subscriptions I'm not going to be able to help you. There are better things to do with your time than to come to a grown ups blog and make an ass out of your self. I suggest you find out what they are.

Fr. 386sx@559:
No, trying to use your own holy book as evidence for your religion is stupid.

"I bet you bunch of spineless cowards wouldn't march into the center of Innsmouth and declare Cthulhu a myth and his followers fools!*"

I refuse to insult any deity whose name I can't pronounce.

wars, eh.....like the 100,000,000 killed by the secular communist states in the past 100 years...

I'm not sure if you understand that part of history. In any case, it is a non sequitur.

Fucking idiots.

Prove it.

I mean, if I were to say that anyone who believes the Oreo to be holy must be insane - is this disrespectful?

Hey Xeno, to answer your question, no, but Jesus would taste a whole lot better with double stuffing.

13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Not only is it stupid, it's also a blatant lie. He says right there he'll do anything you ask him to, but he doesn't.

"And I thought fundamentalist Protestants had a monopoly on outrage."

They do. 99.999998% of Catholics have never heard of PZ Myers, and they wouldn't care what he says even if they did know who he was.

This is manufactured "outrage" by Donohue and his goons in order to score cheap political points.

I don't think the Pope is losing any sleep over this.

"Atheists are such utilitarian hypocrites - that is what makes them dangerous."

I'm not an expert in philosophy, but I seem to remember utilitarianism being the principle that one should choose actions that result in the greatest good for the greatest number of people. What's so dangerous about that?

Atheist morality:::::::::::::::::

Atheist general: how do we get rid of this population of underclass that are hampering progress in our 10 year plan?

Atheist leader: I know, let's biologically reclassify them as under-humans and then collectivize their farm lands for our progressive industrialization program for the vanguard!

Atheist general: you are right, they are less than human and are in the way of OUR PROGRESS! Plus they do not think like us and are backward peoples.

End of Story (Ukraine, anyone?)

"I don't think the Pope is losing any sleep over this."

I don't think the Pope is losing sleep over anything. If he had a conscience he'd have offed himself or died of shame long ago.

Rey Fox,

Thanks for proving my point...what could possibly go wrong!

Please, promo, get off of mommy and daddy's computer and go to bed.
And just for shits and giggles, and maybe to prove how stupid you really are, what was Hitler's faith?

"I don't think the Pope is losing sleep over anything. If he had a conscience he'd have offed himself or died of shame long ago."

Is he that bad? I haven't been paying attention (I probably should, but hey - I'm busy).

I do know he looks a lot like Darth Sidious. That can't be a good think.

ok, well since it appears to be just me, Rey, and the troll, I'm gonna go. I hear woot is gonna have their famous bag o' crap up for sale tonight.

For a modern less dramatic example of centralized, scientific utilitarianism gone wrong, one word: bio-fuel

Try to think for yourselves, kids...really now!

The immortal words of the great master come to mind:

"Get in line in that processional
Step into that small confessional
There the guy that's got religion 'll
Tell you if your sin's original
If it is, try playing it safer
Drink the wine and chew the wafer
Two-four-six-eight
Time to transubstantiate!"

http://www.amazon.com/Remains-Tom-Lehrer/dp/B00004SWBH/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?…

Maybe if you had said 'friggin' cracker...

I'm glad I go by "Rob" only...that other guy's going to ruin my rep.

If you need any tips on handling the Catholic League, put a call in to Kevin Smith. He's been though this before.

All because of a movie with a rubber poop monster and George Carlin as a Cardinal.

Craig:
kuh-THOOL-hoo

Communists in Russia were secular?!

Is this the version of secularism where one dogma gets privileged above all competing ideas in a society, with a totalitarian leader on top? Like, bizarro-secularism?

By Dutch Delight (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

*that would be "good thing"

jesus, I must be getting brain damage from reading promo's bullshit

@ Promo

Christian morality:::::::::::::::::

Christian general: how do we get rid of this population of underclass that are hampering progress in our 10 year plan?

Christian leader: I know, let's threaten to torture them till they convert then kill most of 'em anyhow...

Christian general: you are right, they are less than human and are in the way of OUR PROGRESS! Plus they do not think like us and are backward peoples.

End of Story (Most of the last 1800 years of European history, anyone?)

There... fixed that for you.

By Celtic_Evolution (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

@promo
Have you ever been in High School history class? I suggest study them. You will see they kill people for power.

For a modern less dramatic example of centralized, scientific utilitarianism gone wrong, one word: bio-fuel

I don't think you understand either the science or the politics behind this one. I mean, where in the world did you get utilitarianism from this?

Try to think for yourselves, kids...really now!

I don't think it is very polite for someone your age to call us kids.

Just glad someone read it, Todd.
Personally, I'd open Jesus up first and get to the creamy inside, and then consume the two part exterior as an aside.

promo:
enough. you apparently just want to come in here and throw around a bunch of talking points that you've picked up from Fox News, mixed in with truly juvenile insults.
You clearly do not know what you are talking about, and what's more, you don't care, either.
I could start arguing with you about your bizarre hallucinations of pseudo-Atheist warfare and why it's total bullshit, but I don't think you're capable of understanding a rational argument. (I don't even think *you're* less than human, and you've been wasting our time trying to prove it.)
Also, nobody uses the term "cocksucker" except men who are insecure in their masculinity. Hopefully you are young and therefore have an excuse.
Go away and find your naked Ann Coulter pics to make you feel better.

"Paul, why are you persecuting Me?"

^^^is this supposed to be from the frackin cracker?

By galapagos (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

ICBY states: "Have you ever been in High School history class? I suggest study them."

Have you been to your local EFL class? It does not look like it...

"Is he that bad? I haven't been paying attention (I probably should, but hey - I'm busy)."

Well, apart from being a former Nazi (well, Hitler Youth at least), and having authored Catholic policy to hide and protect child rapists, plus the routine anti-gay and anti-birth-control stuff, he's actually a really swell guy.

Mr. Myers has the absolute right to his free speech. HOWEVER, it is an extreme act of aggression to make threats against the Holy Eucharist that we Catholics know to be the Body of Christ.

As an Irish Catholic, I strongly urge Mr. Myers to continue to exercise his right of free speech to reflect whatever is truly in his heart. By the same token, I strongly urge him to keep it at speech only, without the action to desecrate what is Holy. To do otherwise is good for no one.

I want to start a new website called "ChristOnACracker.com" where users can exchange Jesus recipes. Just wait till you taste my Broccoli Savior Casserole!

hey wait, mandrake, I've used the word cocksucker a few times. :(
I didn't mean it as an insult, though.

Sastra: "Since Phil is a Catholic, he may have a valid point. You see, the substance of the letters was indeed reasonable. The parts of the letters which we could read were only the appearances, which are visible to the senses."

Nice try but...we don't believe e-mails or letters are transubstantiated. Transubstantiation (meaning "change of substance") applies only to the consecrated host during Mass. Of course you knew that already. That's the teaching in the Catechism, in Ludwig Ott's Fundmentals of Catholic Dogma, it is the historical teaching of the Church through all the Fathers, Saints, and Doctors going back to John 6:51ff and "This is my body" in the Eucharist narratives in the Bible. That's why Catholics believe it today, that's why the Church believes it. The literal Eucharist view is quite clear as early as St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD) who learned his teaching from St. John the apostle.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num8.htm

It's not a cracker BTW, that's more in baptist churches (or Protestant / evangelical / fundamentalist "baptistic" type services) or others who use actual crackers and grape juice. They do not accept transubstantiation or even "sacraments" for the most part. It is (literally) "crackers and grape juice" to them which are only symbolic of the body and blood of Christ.

The correct Catholic term would be the "host" (Latin hostia for victim or offering, since Christ is "made present" to us) or the "communion wafer." It is not a cracker neither in taste nor texture. No one calls it a "cracker" but fundamentalists or atheists who don't know anything about the Eucharist. It would be like a Catholic referring to evolution as "King Kong theory of creation" (yes, Bill Donohue is wrong on that one). I accept the science of evolution fully and defend it vigorously at Catholic Answers forums. Now that we got that settled....

Since I rarely post here (maybe once a year, but I try to read often), I'll answer a few objections as this thread is up my alley. I apologize for missing a few of P.Z.'s death threats. I didn't read all the Emails posted, I'm surprised P.Z. even has the time to read through all that!

On the "celiac disease" objection, Karl Keating (president of Catholic Answers) actually didn't answer it in that E-letter post that was linked above. He only dealt with the official Catholic teaching that rice cannot be substituted for bread. His suggestion was that person who is allergic to gluten could take the consecrated wine instead (which is also "the whole body and blood of Jesus" according to Catholic teaching).

The actual objection to transubstantiation I brought up was this: "why does someone with celiac disease (allergy to the gluten in bread) become effected by a consecrated host since the bread in the host was (supposedly) transubstantiated (or changed) into the body and blood of Jesus?"

Of course both baptists and atheists would agree, there is no change, and that's their answer. The Catholic answer (I would have to look this up more fully) would probably have to do with the "substance" being changed, but the appearances or "accidents" still effecting the person. Under a microscope, a consecrated host would look the same as a "regular" (unconsecrated) host. The sacrament is a "mystery" (which is where the word sacrament comes from, sacramentum in Latin, and mysterion in Greek) just as the Incarnation (John 1:1,14), since Jesus did not "look" like God when he walked the earth. He did perform "miracles" which were outward signs of his divinity, and similarly there are such things as "Eucharistic miracles" which you can look up online (yes they have been critiqued by skeptic Joe Nickell).

As for transubstantiation supposedly not being believed or developed in the Church until the 8th or 9th century AD, that is historically incorrect. It is true the term itself doesn't show up until the 11th and 12th century debates on the Eucharist, with the term officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 AD. The Radbertus-Ratramnus "debate" in the 9th century did not concern "transubstantiation." The Church believed the doctrine well before that, although the terminology to explain the doctrine was not fully worked out.

My source here is Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (TAN Books, 1974), and Anglo-Catholic scholar Darwell Stone's A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist (a two-volume set from 1909), older but probably the best there is on the history and development of the doctrine.

Berengarius (or Berengar) of Tours was the first one (c. 1050 AD) to suggest the Eucharist was purely "symbolic." All the Church Fathers hundreds of years before him took Jesus' words "This is My Body" literally and used terms very close to "transubstantiation" in Latin and Greek. See especially the western/Latin Father St. Ambrose, and such eastern/Greek Fathers as St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Alexandria and St. John Damascene. They used various terms for "change" or "transform" of the Eucharist elements into the "body and blood of Christ" that closely approximates "transubstantiation" (Latin for "change of substance"). The Orthodox as well who split from Catholics in the 11th century, used the same term in Greek for "change of substance" (metousiosis). So they basically believe the same thing.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num31.htm

St. Augustine, bishop of Hippo (c. 354-430 AD), who some try to argue held a purely "symbolic" view (he did use "symbol" and "figure" terms as did others), also said:

"How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: 'THIS IS MY BODY.' FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS." (St. Augustine, Psalms 33:1:10)

"...I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord's feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING." (St. Augustine, Psalms 98:9)

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num30.htm

So it is wrong to suggest the teaching was "invented" by the Church in the 8th or 9th century. It is the teaching of Jesus, and there was development in the terminology and in the practice, but both the "Real Presence" and "sacrifice of the Mass" (Christ's sacrifice is "made present" during Mass) is there in the Bible and all the major Fathers east and west.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num8.htm

I also recommend all the debates on my page here

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm

Like I said, I don't think P.Z. has a problem with folks like me (or Kenneth R. Miller) who defend the science of evolution. We are in the same boat together against the 50% of Americans who despise evolution and science since they think it threatens their faith.

Excellent new book which I think P.Z. mentioned -- Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution by Giberson. Although "believe" I wouldn't use, I use "accept" since one accepts the data, evidence and arguments, one doesn't have to have "faith" to do that. And there is such a thing as "Reasonable Faith" (see William Lane Craig's updated 2008 book of that title, and the current July 2008 cover of "Christianity Today" magazine).

That's it I'm done.

Phil P

Moses (#408):

With billions in profits, and billions, possibly trillions, in resources around the globe, the Catholic Church could buy a lot of tractors. They could build thousands upon thousands of hospitals, schools and low-income-housing units. In fact, it is conceivable that those resources could eradicate poverty and hunger within our lifetime if they were properly applied.

Yet, you don't actually do much. In fact, you do so little, compared to your resources that it is, from the perspective of the Sermon on the Mount, Acts and many of the Epistles, a sin. A literal sin against the commandments of God to help your fellow man as you callously let your fellow man die of starvation while your priests live in gilded castles and live the lives of the rich and famous.

So, as Jesus said, and I'll paraphrase, "Do not concern yourself with the mote in your neighbor's eye, rather the plank in yours." And with you puppies, it's not a plank, it's a fucking GIANT REDWOOD.

Great bolshy yarblockos, man. You make me want to pray for you.

Fr.[?] J, #535

JoJo, if you want patronizing I urge you to read what the atheists have written on this blog.

Or I can read what you've written.

Some people here have lied. For example blaming all wars on religion etc.

It wasn't any of us who claimed that the death threats against PZ were written by atheists. In fact, it was you. It wasn't even hyperbolic, like the supposed comment about wars. It was a flat out lie, and quite transparent. Incidentally, while not all wars are caused by religion, some are and were. It's estimated that about 1/3 of the population of modern Germany and Czech Republic died during the Thirty Years War, which had religion, particularly the principle of cuius regio, eius religio, as a cause.

Many have insulted me personally, including you.

Did mean ol' JoJo insult lil' ickums? Poor fluffy. Don't you worry your pointy little head about that bully. I'll take him out back and beat the shit out of him.

I am not hard to get along with and my problem with atheists is not me.

That is an opinion which others may not hold. I, for one, think it's a piece of self-delusion on your part. As I said previously, you come across as a pompous, patronizing prig. In fact, you do so in the above quote. Furthermore, you insinuated that some of us had manufactured the death threat emails. As I said before, that means you call us, collectively, liars. And you honestly don't understand why we might take umbrage at this claim? You are self-deluding.

They believe that anyone who is a theist is stupid and immediately treat them accordingly.

You hold a belief that The Big Guy In The Sky magically transforms crackers into himself and you don't think this is stupid? I've heard you god-bothers come up with some real wacko ideas, but the magic cracker is one of the stupidest.

That's the problem. If you want to claim it's okay to disrespect ideas but not persons then show me in your posts.

In all honesty, I not only don't respect your ideas, I don't respect you. You've given me no reason to respect you, quite apart from any religious or other beliefs. You are a pompous, patronizing prig.

Good night and God bless.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster bestow His noodly goodness upon you.

Yet another example of the perverted understanding the followers of the Abrahamic faith's have of the relationship between symbol and reality.

Not only is this no different than the Islamic world taking umbrage over some squiggly lines of ink on a page, it is functionally unchanged from imbuing a painting of a bison on a cave wall with magical properties.

Sad to see that religiot thinking has evolved so little. Or maybe that's the point?

@promo
No thanks, but I am sure you could get one. Anything you write is unintelligible to a person with average or higher IQ.

Paul (#593):

HOWEVER, it is an extreme act of aggression to make threats against the Holy Eucharist that we Catholics know to be the Body of Christ.

So. . . burning 3,000 consecrated communion wafers would be a greater crime against humanity than 9/11?

Perspective: you're doing it wrong!

craig:
oops, sorry. You're right. It's only people who use it as an insult who tend to be pathetic.

#593

"Mr. Myers has the absolute right to his free speech. HOWEVER, it is an extreme act of aggression to make threats against the Holy Eucharist that we Catholics know to be the Body of Christ."

Too late, bro. The gauntlet's been thrown. Any of your holy crackers we get our godless hands on, we're gonna desecrate the living shit out of. If God wants to stop us, he can form himself Voltron-style out of cracker bits and politely ask us to stop. That might give us pause. You, on the other hand... Not so persuasive. You're just the guy who idolizes a cracker, so your opinion is kind of loony tunes.

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Celtic_Evolution,

Except for the fact that hundreds of millions were killed in the atheist actions vs the 100,000 killed in your example.

Numbers matter -- utilitarian atheism (communism etc.) allows for unrestricted killing in the name of utopia.

Christian "utopia" is not found on this earth and it will never be attempted.

Adios for now.

(I bet you hate Spanish as Adios means "to God") Atheists are such a bore!

To do otherwise is good for no one.

I disagree. I think that would really brighten my day up.

it is an extreme act of aggression

Are you dense?

Threatening a cracker? really. Do you think Jesus or God is pissed about a cracker? Shouldn't you be focused on feeding the poor and other teachings in that book of yours? I bet the Jesus I hear about (sometimes) would be WAY more concerned about that.

By the same token, I strongly urge him to keep it at speech only,

Um... well. That's where we are. PZ in what was probably jest threatened a cracker. You Catholics have threatened a life and a career among other things.

Perspective please!

Paul @ #593

"Mr. Myers has the absolute right to his free speech. HOWEVER, it is an extreme act of aggression to make threats against the Holy Eucharist that we Catholics know to be the Body of Christ."

Like I said before, is the only thing separating what stupid idea it is possible to make fun of the number of followers to that idea?

No one is suggesting we murder Italians for their love of spaghetti, in the name of FSM. Why is that, you think?

Paul, with all due respect, if you think that's an extreme act of aggression, you've lost all perspective.

Its a cracker. You don't "know" it to be the body of anyone. You just think you do. That's your problem and none of our concern.

An act against a cracker is at most an act against a cracker - and other people's misguided ideas. That is NOT extreme. Acts against ideas are routine, commonplace, allowable and desirable.

Paul, grab hold of reality and find a little bit of concern for REAL acts of aggression, such as the death threats against the college student, and the attempts to ruin his education, and the attempts to get PZ Myers fired (futile though they will be)

Or the many far worse acts of aggression, some (but not all) made in the name of religion.

It's a cracker. It's just a fucking cracker.

Uhhmm Promo, utopia never mattered to the people on top of the communist government. I want to emphasize this once again, P-O-W-E-R. Do you get it? I guess not.

Wow.

Could somebody who is Catholic explain why, in the above e-mails:

156 times the word "Catholic" is used

vs.

55 times the word "God" is used
34 times the word "Jesus" is used
20 times the word "Christian" is used

Yet not one instance of the word "Scripture" or "Bible".

Hmmm.

Anyway, while we're on the topic, I'm still waiting for someone to explain this one to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_adoration

By buckyball (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Craig -

Shit, I forgot about the Hitler Youth thing.

Gawd, you'd think that with 10 million (or whatever) priests they could come up with someone a little less odious to do the job...

utilitarian atheism (communism etc.) allows for unrestricted killing in the name of utopia.

I call that totalitarian tyranny, not atheism.And funny thing...I'm a big bad atheist, as are many of the others commenting here, and we oppose mass murder, dictatorship, pogroms, oppression, etc. It's very, very silly for you to come in here and tell us we're pinin' for an auto-da-fe and the execution of millions.

promo needs to go back to school to figure out what the driving force in Stalin and Mao's communism was.

1st hint. Not atheism.

2nd hint. Paranoia

3rd hint. What do unscrupulous people do with power?

Man, do I have complaints. Yesterday's thread: 1227 comments. I got close to 600 and had to give up. I enjoyed it all but really, where has the art of condensation gone? Only to Borden's?

A few pts, related to things I read. One anti-PZ poster wrote:
"OMFG!" I can only surmise that hers was a farting God as the standard translation would be blasphemous. It might also explain the foul weather hereabouts of late.

Andrew Sullivan: with his initial pro-war agenda and his much-publicized unsafe sex practices, purports to lecture others on his definition of bigotry. Nothing new there; it's the same old tory.

holding the wafer hostage: As I commented at the original catholic.org Donohue article, I remain unclear how the kid held the thing hostage. Was it kidnapped from a chalice? Or did the priest hand it to him. If the latter, does the gift become a kidnapee when one refuses to chew on the poor captive? Or did it become an offense only when he departed the chapel? Was he followed by a posse demanding the hostage's return? Were there ransom demands? If he had swallowed it and hung around the church till the poor bugger had been obliterated by digestive acids, eventually working its way to a spot adjoining the sphincter, would departure then be a hostage situation or is that considered a sacred spot for the Lord to take up lodging?

In that same comments section, a priest also commented:
http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=28553
and called for PZ's arrest. Considering my last point made, PZ, should the gendarmes come knocking, I urge you to put the cracker up your bum, disproving any claims of defilement.

Another article there is titled "Pope Prefers Communion on the Tongue". But it doesn't say if he prefers that on the first date or a later one.

Regarding the need for additional security in Minneapolis: Thomas Foley (R-Sans Atlas) can perform a ritual blessing and make St. Paul appear, which can shield the GOP faithful from the extreme danger of biological practices.

Finally, a letter to the offendee:

Dear Mr. Donohue;

At Morris, we have a chemistry professor demanding we learn the 'table of elements' but none of them include unleavened bread. In physics, the professor teaches us about the big bang which doesn't make conception sound so immaculate. Can you please redirect your effort to get these two professors fired instead of that biology guy? Hurry please before my finals are graded. Mr. Myers has assured me of a 2.0 but I need your divine intervention before the others desecrate that into a lower numeral...

And for my last act,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f72CTDe4-0

this is the funniest shit that will probably happen all year to anyone. I'm calling it a top 5. You can't just make a play-by-play of this magnitude up out of thin air.

I reckon I'll be telling me grandkids about that one time when ol PZ called a cracker a cracker.

yarr...

Except for the fact that hundreds of millions were killed in the atheist actions vs the 100,000 killed in your example.

Numbers matter -- utilitarian atheism (communism etc.) allows for unrestricted killing in the name of utopia.

Why is it that you people never have the decency to learn the history that you use in your "arguments."

Here is the letter I sent to Mr. Bruininks in support of PZ Myers:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Bruininks,

A university should be a place where ideas can be exchanged freely without fear of reprisal. Our constitution guarantees freedom of speech as our most basic right. Yet there our those in our society who would silence those with whom they do not agree. William Donohue and the Catholic League are a perfect example of these people. The Catholic League claims to be an anti-defamation organization, but Mr. Donohue has repeatedly used his position as its president to attack gays and progressives. Now he is using his position to attack Professor Myers.

What is Professor Myers' crime? He did not call for violence against anybody. He did use hate speech against anybody. So what did he do? He attacked an idea. The Catholic Church and its followers believe that a wafer can literally become the flesh of their god. Professor Myers is simply calling them on the absurdity of this claim and also reacting to the threats of violence against the young man who took the eucharist wafer in a previous incident. Mr. Donohue claims to have received hate mail over this incident, but has yet to produce any of it. Professor Myers, on the other hand, has posted some of the deranged hate mail that he has received to his blog. Hate mail that he has received from Catholics who have been directed to his site by the Catholic League and Mr. Donohue. Mr. Donohue wrote "if I get any death threats, it won't be hard to connect the dots". Considering that Professor Myers actually has received death threats, is it fair to say that we can also connect the dots?

A rational world view is essential to life in the 21st century. Medieval superstitions have no place in our modern society. Host desecration should not be a crime in 21st century America. Mr Bruininks, I urge you to support Professor Myers and stand with us on the side of rationality and the free exchange of ideas and against those who would silence us and return us to a darker age.

Sincerely,

A few pts, related to things I read. One anti-PZ poster wrote:
"OMFG!" I can only surmise that hers was a farting God as the standard translation would be blasphemous. It might also explain the foul weather hereabouts of late.

Oh well. That glass of Cabernet was pretty good. I guess I need to clean it off the monitor.

Craig

What is "reality" really? Does it only exist while YOU are alive on this earth? What will reality when the human race does not exist anymore? Will there be any reality then? My question is rhetorical. The reality then will be spiritual. It is time you expand your human closed mind and read up on the topic...consider the Bible as a starting point.

For you to have no respect for the Eucharist says that you have no understanding. Before you insult someone or something, consider learning about it first.

Craig

It's impossible to follow someone's logic in this particular type of forum. Here's where I'm coming from. PZ posted his cracker post asking people to bring him a consecrated communion wafer to desecrate on the internet.

While I'm sure some Catholics are up in arms just for the post, what they really are up in arms about is that PZ seems to be asking people to come into their church and screw with their mass.

Now PZ was interviewed by a Minnesota newspaper and backtracked a bit. He made it quite clear that his post was satire and that he wasn't actively advocating people go and defile the Catholic mass.

He's creating a false dichotomy on this forum by failing to connect the dots and openly saying that he's not advocating that people go in and screw with Catholics in their mass.

My honest belief is that he needs to clear the air, stop all this nonsense and make it clear on his blog that he was engaging in satire and not actively advocating people helping him desecrate the Catholic mass.

We can walk around kicking each other in our virtual nuts or we can try to be honest and just say plainly what we think.

My opinion is that PZ hasn't done that. It's his blog and he can clear the record or not. To the extent that he doesn't do that, I'm going to criticize him. You fail to understand that me saying what I think he should write is not the same as telling him he must write X. Criticizing him for not writing X is not the same as saying he must write X.

I'm not telling him what to write but I believe that to the extent that he's said things in different forums without putting all the pieces together he's being intellectually dishonest and should make a complete record on this blog.

It's his virtual world. He can clear the record or not. I have the right, subject to PZ's sole discretion to criticize him on his forum. If he feels that I'm too disruptive, he has the right to ban me from his blog. I mean no disrespect to PZ Myers. He's a good scientist and I'm thankful for the times that he bitch slaps creationists.

I really understand where he was coming from in that post. I just feel that he went over the top, needs to defuse an ugly controversy and put end the PZ Myers vs. the Catholic universe mess.

By Ron in Houston (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

I'm still a fan of the idea that PZ "desecrate" the cracker by examining it under a microscope. "Hi, I'm PZ Myers, tenured professor of biology at the University of Minnesota, Morris, and I've been receiving death threats for promising to do just what I'm about to do, right now. One of these crackers has been blessed by a priest, and one of them came straight from the box. I don't know which — they were prepared by my graduate students.

"Who are off praying with each other right now.

"Now, it's time to see if we can find a difference between real Jesus and the Placebo Christ."

At some point, one should work in a joke about what would happen if we took the idea that the essence of an object had nothing to do with any of its observable characteristics seriously. Apply cracker logic to anything else in life, and what do you get? Well, I suppose it's a way that a man can still be straight when he only has sex with other men. . . .

"For you to have no respect for the Eucharist says that you have no understanding."

I'm not sure how that follows.

@ Promo

Step 1: Extract cranium from rectum.
Step 2: Pick up a history book.
Spet 3: Read it.
Step 4: Don't be stupid enough to blame state-sponsored killing on atheism... that little gem's been slapped down on this and a hundred other sources so many times I can't keep count.
Step 5: Don't be seriously stupid enough to ever, EVER think that christianity's death count plateaus at 100,000. I doubt even the Pope would argue that one.
Step 6: Until you get through the first 5 steps, stop talking over your head on subjects with people far more knowledgable than you... you will end up looking stupid and resorting to name calling and boorish schoolyard behavior.

Now go get some sleep, cupcake... it's way past your bedtime.

By Celtic_Evolution (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Maybe Promo would like to take this moment to recognize the systematic eradication of non-christians from Europe by murder, rape and conversion by the sword as ordered by various popes. I suppose christians and their popes weren't all that well tuned in with their loving gods morals yet.

Someone posted a nice bible verse here recently that was used a lot in that time I bet. Something about people not with god not being people anyway. Oh well, you know the bible, plenty of hateful stuff to pick from there.

You don't have to apologize for not knowing this stuff, we atheists are used to your level ignorance.

By Dutch Delight (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Paul,

1) State rethorical question
2) Answer rethorical question
3) Assert absolute truth in answer
4) Suggest people who don't follow this logic don't understand

Paul, reality is what is, regardless of my existence or yours and regardless of how either of us feel about it. Regardless of the existence or lack of existence of the human race.

Our planet is a rather small one of several orbiting our star.

There are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy. There are hundreds of billions of other galaxies, each with billions of stars and planets, in the universe.

Grow up, grow a set and scrape up the courage to discard the conceit that your are the center of the universe and that what you think and feel, and the span of your lifetime has any effect whatsoever upon the 99.99999999999xxx percent of the universe that isn't you.

Actually, many of the e-mail aren't that horrible. Some are just attempting to explain the emotional reaction some Catholics are having to the post.

The "your a liberal college prof living off my tax dollars" are just tiresome.

Taking aside the letters that cross the line, this is to be expected when you say provocative things. That's how it goes.

I read more into this and it is hilarious that all this started (according to the student) because people at the church physically assaulted him. (They didn't hit him in the face, but they wrestled with him.) He was raised Catholic and claims that he simply wanted to show his non-Catholic friend (who was curious about Catholicism) what the wafer looked like. He kept the wafer as a STANCE AGAINST PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

wow.

At any rate, I don't really think that rampant acts of "sacrilege" are generally reasonable. I support Dr. Myer's right to say what he wants, but hope he doesn't follow through (and I doubt he has the intention to). I'm not sure how reasonable a "Eucharist Challenge" would be either.

At some point, doing things like this is just too cruel. Just think of someone who places THAT much emphasis on a "blessed" wafer - they are certainly not well.

Being naughty to the "Body of Christ" around Catholics is about as horrible as yelling "INCOMING!" around a group of vets and laughing at the people who duck under chairs.

It's making fun of the psychologically damaged.

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

@Paul
We learned about it, and it is not right to harass someone for it, cause then, wouldn't that make the person a hypocrite? Oh, and the answer to reality is yes, it still exists even if I don't exists, and thinking something doesn't make what you think of the physical world real. Dinosaurs have existed millions of years ago, and that doesn't make it unreal. As for what reality is, it is this world in which we live in, aren't you happy with just being alive? And how will dying make reality spiritual? oh and many atheists have read the bible.

For you to have no respect for the Eucharist says that you have no understanding.

Heaven forbid I suggest that it says we have too much understanding to grant a foolish ritual respect.

(If this message posts, then Heaven is doing a piss-poor job of forbidding.)

Grow up, grow a set and scrape up the courage to discard the conceit that your are the center of the universe and that what you think and feel, and the span of your lifetime has any effect whatsoever upon the 99.99999999999xxx percent of the universe that isn't you.

Oh no, craig you big mean atheist. Now Paul's going to cry.

Correction, reality is the universe in which we live and if by chance, other universes exists, then they are real too.

Hey, all you dregs of the human race - PZ has to worry what God will do to him. A few years ago a couple thought it was funny to have sex at St. Patrick's Cathedral. The man was struck dead a few months later, not by a human, but by God. God doesn't take blasphemy and sacriledge lightly. To Him it's a serious matter.

Xeno @ #346
"I believe his joke was a take on "they need to get laid".

Back to comedy school for me!

By DingoDave (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Someone had said "you catch more flies with honey" Somewhere in the comments. I can't remember, I stopped reading them about #200.

It's an interesting analogy really. My own experimentation of this old saying came up with a different result.

The experiment was simple, I placed two bowls outside my house on my deck out back. One was full of honey, the other was full of vinegar. Each day I would count the bugs that were found dead or alive in or on the bowl. Then I would clean the bowls out and try again.

Day One of the experiment I had 10 stuck in the honey. I had 27 floating around in the vinegar. Day two of the experiment I had 14 in the honey and 19 in the vinegar. Day 3 produced 21 in the honey and 32 in the vinegar. The saying wasn't adding up at this point. (I should note that these were the total of all bugs found and not just flies).

Then I tried a control experiment by just placing the honey outside by itself and not placing any vinegar with it. Then after 3 days I switched it and placed a new bowl of vinegar outside each day. The numbers still showed that the Vinegar caught more.

I should add that on day 2 of the control I had a chipmunk sitting on the bowl of honey, though that really doesn't count, it was rather cute.

I plan to try the test again some day with a cage to prevent wildlife from interfering with the experiment. As well as to count only flies and not all the types of bugs. But so far, it seems that being nice and sweet doesn't attract as much as being bitter.

Now that I've rambled on needlessly. I have to say those are pretty standard issues emails from fanatics. Then again, there were just too many for me to sit and read in one go. I'll have to come back and finish it some day.

Uh, what's with the assumption that PZ was raised a Jew? That just comes totally out of nowhere. Totally baffling.

"Now, it's time to see if we can find a difference between real Jesus and the Placebo Christ."

Just examine the placebo cracker, then watch everybody get all hysterical, and then break the news to them that it was only the placebo all along.

Everybody looks like idiots, and PZ Myers gets spared eternal damnation too. Perfect!

I feel tempted to write some articles on the Thirty Years War or the Fourth Crusade (the one where the Crusaders sacked Christian Constantinople and never did fight the Muslims). Some of these people just don't know any history.

Incidently, it was the Catholic Venetians who got the Crusaders to attack Byzantium. The Venetians, who had a thriving trade with the Seljuk Sultanate, wanted to seriously damage their Byzantine merchant rivals.

Hey, all you dregs of the human race - PZ has to worry what God will do to him. A few years ago a couple thought it was funny to have sex at St. Patrick's Cathedral. The man was struck dead a few months later, not by a human, but by God.

you know, Jenn, is that really the sort of thing you want to start bringing up? There's probably been sex in Catholic Churches before, but I doubt anyone thought it was funny. Last I heard God hadn't struck down any priests. Or are they immune?

I did not think any of you would get what I am saying. All I ask is that you learn more about what you believe to be a hoax. You may find out that a Religion that has survived for over 2000 years may have some truth to it.

"Upon this rock you shall build my Chruch, Peter" Peter was the first Pope, desiganted by Jesus himself at that moment.

Hey, all you dregs of the human race - PZ has to worry what God will do to him. A few years ago a couple thought it was funny to have sex at St. Patrick's Cathedral. The man was struck dead a few months later, not by a human, but by God. God doesn't take blasphemy and sacriledge lightly. To Him it's a serious matter.

Yeah it sucked when Richard Dawkins and Chritopher Hitchens were stuck dea... oh never mind.

but its a good thing Jerry Falwell is still around.

I did not think any of you would get what I am saying. All I ask is that you learn more about what you believe to be a hoax. You may find out that a Religion that has survived for over 2000 years may have some truth to it.

"Upon this rock you shall build my Chruch, Peter" Peter was the first Pope, designated by Jesus himself at that moment.

"I strongly urge you ... To do otherwise is good for no one."

Another threat from the pious. It is an exact copy of the bullshit "moderate" muslims were throwing around after their fundie cultmembers stabbed a man on the street for having an opinion.

By Dutch Delight (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

to Jenn @ #632

-how do you know god struck him down? and, assuming arguendo, it was for having sex in a cathedral, do you think it was probably because the intercourse was with a woman older than 18?

yes, yes, Ron I know exactly where you are coming from.

You are coming from the same exact place as EVERY other person on every other blog's comments threads who complains about what the blogger wrote, says what he thinks the blogger should write instead to get their approval, and then insists that they aren't telling that blogger what to say as they repeat their complaints over and over endlessly.

We GOT it a long time ago, Ron. You don't like what PZ said, you don't like the things he never said but which you repeatedly lied about him having said, and you don't want to tell him what to write, but you really think he should write "xxxx" and you're going to say so over and over and over again until he finally DOES say the things which in no way and under no circumstances are you trying to tell him he should write.

We got it the first several dozen times.

@JoJo #638

I think it is a given that Christian fundamentalists don't know anything outside the bible. Scratch that, often they don't know the bible all that well either.

@ Paul

I think what you fail to understand is that on the whole, in my experience, atheists know infinitely more about religion and the Bible than the vast majority of christians. It's much of the reason many of us, myself included, don't believe in that garbage anymore. Once you actually take the time to look into this stuff deeply, you get turned off pretty quickly, if you are a rationally thinking human being. Just look through the posts around here... we're a pretty knowledgable bunch.

So, thanks for the sermon... but no thanks.

By Celtic_Evolution (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

I did not think any of you would get what I am saying. All I ask is that you learn more about what you believe to be a hoax. You may find out that a Religion that has survived for over 2000 years may have some truth to it.

"Upon this rock you shall build my Chruch, Peter" Peter was the first Pope, desiganted by Jesus himself at that moment.

Really paul? you think none of us have researched and read about it?

I think you need to read up on Shiva. I think if you did you would realize that you might be making big mistake. you know Hinduism has been around for 7000 years.

Paul #642

Some beliefs survive for their truth value, others for their memetic / psychological value even despite the truth.

By Neural Transmissions (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Okay, wow, I can't get through all of the post or the comments. So I'm sorry if I'm repetitive.

I really thought better of catholicism. I had been focused on the evangelical fundie-ism in the last few years, since science education is so important to me, and catholics have been pretty hands off with evolution. Growing up as a catholic, I had few run-ins with such intolerance as I see here. I'm ashamed, and quite glad to have left that whole religion behind years ago.

Because of that background, I feel like I can begin to see past "IT'S JUST A CRACKER!" People really do seem to believe that is IS the body of their lord. (Personally, I was somewhere between it's *actually* god and it's just a symbol, since with all the BS I did believe, changine matter was not one of them.) But now if we look at that aspect, that it's not just a cracker to these people, that it IS their god, the case isn't much better. After all, can't an omniscient, omnipotent god fend for himself? Does the lord need this much protection and indignation? If anything, the perpetrator needs protection from being smited (smote?) by the lord of the cracker.

Just saying...

"Hey, all you dregs of the human race - PZ has to worry what God will do to him. A few years ago a couple thought it was funny to have sex at St. Patrick's Cathedral. The man was struck dead a few months later, not by a human, but by God. God doesn't take blasphemy and sacriledge (sic) lightly. To Him it's a serious matter."

Jen, you believe God takes blasphemy and sacrilege seriously? Why? How could one possibly harm an omnipotent creator of a hundred quadrillion suns? You make Yahweh out to be some sort of mafia boss. Why would you worship such a creature?

(Besides, I can think of no more appropriate celebration of your deity than life-affirming intercourse in its presence!)

By Ignignockt (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

A Challenge to Catholics:

If you'll take the time and effort to write five paragraphs condemning all of your fellow Catholics who have sent death threats to student Cook and professor Myers, in no uncertain terms, for being decidedly unchristian, you will reclaim enough of the moral high ground to spend one paragraph expressing your thoughts on PZ Myers' texual insult to you, so long as that paragraph includes no mention of other religions, ethnicities, sexual orientations or other minority groups, nor any mention of PZ's alleged fate, further death threats, hate crimes or other insults. Crossing those lines would be an instant surrender of said moral high ground, and just cause for further ridicule.

Paul,
seriously, do you really think everyone here has never studied the Bible? A lot of Atheists used to be religious. I sang in the Church Choir, went to church *every* sunday (more than any Catholic I ever met),went to Sunday School, was confirmed in 6th grade...
and then reached the age of cognizance. Believe it or not, some people find that studying the Bible (and its 3 versions of Genesis, and the Gospels that were left out, etc) makes them *question* their faith.

The man was struck dead a few months later, not by a human, but by God. God doesn't take blasphemy and sacriledge lightly. To Him it's a serious matter.

The sky is falling!

Just as an aside, I'd like to know why The Big Guy In The Sky didn't stop the Reformation. If Catholicism is The True Faith™, then you'd expect TBGITS to toss a few lightning bolts at Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, and John Knox. Maybe he wanted to rest his arm for bowling night.

btw - After reading Jenn's comment I want to say that I certainly hope that one day many of those that fear God are able to work through the indoctrination and terror of their religion.

All these e-mails talking about how "sad" PZ is and how they hope that PZ is one day "saved"...I know they are completely sincere.

I used to be a very devote Christian and I was able to escape. I don't hate Christians or make fun of them - but I do see the majority as Christians as victims.

It's horrible to me that your church as placed so much fear in you, and filled your head with so many lies, that a mere THREAT of abusing a blessed wafer is emotionally and psychologically on par with real human tragedy.

If you even feel like leaving the church and shedding the FEAR of God and the FEAR of Satan and the FEAR of Hell - it isn't easy, but there is support for you. Beyond the name-calling and arrogance; there are compassionate people that have been in your position and have had the courage to get out from under the suffocating grip of religion and are willing to help.

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Well, you certainly addressed the sex part of the comment without acknowledging "you dregs of the human race" part. Of course being at the bottom of the heap, your minds cannot go above filth to a higher level.

I didn't know that all the people one of you so smugly named ever had sex in a Cathedral. Of course God struck him dead. He is the Author of life.

DingoDave:

Xeno @ #346
"I believe his joke was a take on "they need to get laid".
Back to comedy school for me!

You missed a post earlier in the thread where someone observed that "I'll pray for you" in those letters meant about the same thing as "fuck you". For a brief, merry time "pray" meant "fuck" in this thread.

Hi Big Dumb Chimp,

The Catholic Church was around for only 2000 years - that is the New Testament. Prior to that was the Old Testament which is really Judiaism that pre-dates Hiduisim.

I did not think any of you would get what I am saying. All I ask is that you learn more about what you believe to be a hoax. You may find out that a Religion that has survived for over 2000 years may have some truth to it.

"Upon this rock you shall build my Chruch, Peter" Peter was the first Pope, desiganted by Jesus himself at that moment.

That doesn't sound like somebody designating somebody to be a Pope. Of course it has "some truth" to it when you can make the "truth" be whatever you want it to be.

by: EyeNoU @ #401
"When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom,"Let It Be".......I'll get my coat."

I see we have another fan of 'The Fast Show' among us. Same here. But..."you aint seen me...roight?"

By DingoDave (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Just registering my support for Professor Myers. :)

It's worrying how the Catholics quoted here are upset that when Islam is insulted, shit gets real, and people quite often die, but Catholicism is open game for big meanies. This idea that Myers is a coward for attacking Catholicism instead of Islam is sick. It shouldn't take courage to make fun of any ideology.
Do they really wish they still had the insulating protection of vicious mob violence as a defense against detractors? They sure used to.
Having an ideology it is DANGEROUS to make fun of isn't something to aspire to.

Gangsters, all of them - even the grannies.

By Robert Maynard (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

snicker

Well, you certainly addressed the sex part of the comment without acknowledging "you dregs of the human race" part. Of course being at the bottom of the heap, your minds cannot go above filth to a higher level.

I didn't know that all the people one of you so smugly named ever had sex in a Cathedral. Of course God struck him dead. He is the Author of life.

So is that the only thing you god strikes people dead for?

I've answered some of the objections in this thread to the Eucharist, but P.Z. won't post them because my answers are too detailed, too well researched, and too long. I didn't copy/paste, it was from me. Took about an hour.

Take any of your best objections to the Eucharist and transubstantiation or any Catholic teaching to the Catholic Answers forums. We deal with this stuff all the time. Warning: the profanity will get you banned over there, so you don't want to come in guns blazing with F--- bombs.

http://forums.catholic.com

Post in Apologetics forum and let me know you're from P.Z.'s blog.

Phil P

"Last I heard God hadn't struck down any priests. Or are they immune?"

Mandrake, weren't you paying attention? Pope Ratzi says its OK for the priests to screw... well, as long as they screw kids.

Interesting anecdote... as a kid I knew several priests, and some nuns. Not Catholic though... I think Russian Orthodox? Anyway, everyone knew which nuns were which priests "girlfriends," etc... and of course there were the priests who liked feeling up my pre-pubescent sister and hitting on my mom.
And the one who got a little too touchy feely with me.

On the plus side, they gave me my first beer - when I was 7.

Jenn #656

You know, just when I thought you people couldn't get any dumber. Here you come to prove me wrong. All I can say is, I will pray for you all night long.

Jenn: A few years ago a couple thought it was funny to have sex at St. Patrick's Cathedral. The man was struck dead a few months later, not by a human, but by God.

I had sex in a church when I was 17. I'm 55 now. God clearly approved of my sex. Maybe that guy just wasn't doing it in a way that pleased the Lord.

"You may find out that a Religion that has survived for over 2000 years may have some truth to it."

Which one?

P.Z. won't post them because my answers are too detailed, too well researched, and too long. I didn't copy/paste, it was from me. Took about an hour.

Were there a lot of links?

Comments with a lot of links get held up in moderation most of the time. He's probably asleep and isn't watching the monitor queue. I've been there before. I look forward to him letting them through tomorrow.

jenn,

why don'y you write your comments on a piece of paper and fold it up. then tuck it under your pillow and fall asleep on it. and then when you wake up, realize how stupid it sounds.

But seriously, if god is the 'author of life'(tm), then how do you account for the thousands of incidences of genetic diseases? is that the work he produces that is rushed to the printers without the a spellcheck?

I had sex in a cathedral once. That was 22 years ago and all is well. Of course, there are a lot of people with my name, so maybe God couldn't be bothered to make sure he lightning-bolted the right one.

"You may find out that a Religion that has survived for over 2000 years may have some truth to it."

Yes, Taoism, Zarathustaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism.. surely, they must all be true. And since age is apparently a factor, the oldest one of them is the truest?
Help me out here, man.

OH! I have a confession to make! Wow I almost forgot about this....

I was recently out as an atheist when this happened. And my grandmother who is all devout-Catholic and such in front of people in the community but a completely heinous, two-faced, lying, cheating, nasty woman to her family, had particularly annoyed me one day. So in my somewhat immature anger, I dumped out her special little bottle of holy water and replaced it with tap water when she wasn't around. I don't even know why. Maybe it was part rebellion and anger against my former religion in addition to the anger of the latest strife she was causing in my family and a small bit of hope that she would later claim that it "helped" her and I would know that my little experiment proved that it was in her head. But dammit it felt good.

Alright, bring on the damning...

Years ago when my daughter was staying with her catholic cousin, she went to mass just to be polite. When she received the host, she put it in her pocket. She was a teenager and told me she thought it was gross. She later chucked it in the waste basket in her cousin's room (where she was sleeping) and her cousin completely freaked upon discovering it. The contrast of emotions was a learning experience for me (having "lapsed" decades previously). But I wouldn't describe the host as a cracker because if I remember, it "melts in your mouth, not in your hand".

By baryogenesis (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Hey, all you dregs of the human race - PZ has to worry what God will do to him. A few years ago a couple thought it was funny to have sex at St. Patrick's Cathedral. The man was struck dead a few months later, not by a human, but by God. God doesn't take blasphemy and sacriledge lightly. To Him it's a serious matter.

Yeah it sucked when Richard Dawkins and Chritopher Hitchens were stuck dea... oh never mind.

Damn you, BDC, you realize that the first thing I thought when I read that was "Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens had sex in St. Paul's Cathedral?!" Honestly, I could have lived without *that* image...

Damn you, BDC, you realize that the first thing I thought when I read that was "Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens had sex in St. Paul's Cathedral?!" Honestly, I could have lived without *that* image...

hehe. yeah. As the night goes on and the bourbon flows... the typos increase.

Plus, Eddie Murphy is on Comedy Central.

Of course God struck him dead. He is the Author of life.

/me boggles... Did I just read that?

I see a artistic theme forming in my minds eye for any and all illicit consecrated hosts that arrive by mail. If desecration is in order then perhaps an educational desecration should be the object of focus. If each eucharist is desecrated in a manner befitting a great evil wrought by the catholic faith (in the name of their god or bible) then perhaps each video will forcibly humble the faithful as to the real history that binds the aggregate of their faith. Constructive atonement for sins long lost in the pages of history.

Perhaps others can contribute worthy suggestions?

Reserve one for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_Massacre
method of desecration: K-tel dice-o-matic

Aw, frak. #666 and #670, your confessions totally beat mine.

Think I can get my Jewish-atheist bf to desecrate a church with me?

Still can't admit that you're the dregs of humanity? Too low and common to be reasonable thinking men capable of rational thought.

Jenn. I'm not a man. I gave birth, so I'm pretty sure of that.

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

I am a "dreg of humanity".

Now what?

Craig

I frankly don't give a shit whether PZ Myers ever clears the record on his blog. It's a sad state of affairs that he's so full of himself to only say "it was satire" on a paper that gets distributed in his local community but won't say the same thing on this blog. PZ, are you afraid of losing your status as a lion of the atheist community?

It's also pretty damn pathetic to stir up a bunch of shit and then asks people to get your back. If he needs you bunch of mindless sycophants to write letters in support of him then that's frankly pathetic.

You can defend him all you want. Like I've said before what he said was BS and he need to clear the air.

PZ - be a man. Stand on your own two feet or say clearly what you mean. If you stand for logic, reason and intellectual honestly then why don't you show it.

You can be an attention whore to your sympathetic audience or you can be intellectually honest. If you want to talk trash then you better be prepared to get trash back.

Which will it be PZ?

By Ron in Houston (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Nicole @ #679: if he's too thunderbolt-adverse, remind him there's heretics afoot who'd gladly challenge the meteorology for a star like you.

;-)

Still can't admit that you're the dregs of humanity? Too low and common to be reasonable thinking men capable of rational thought.

Ok jenn, I'll play. Will you? How are we the dregs of society? Please in detail, tell us. What puts you above us? Are you superior to us?

could you define 'dregs of humanity'? i'm not sure if we fit.

Yeah, pcarini. He gives life and He TAKES it away also. You came from Him, and at death, you go back to Him.

Ref. buckyball @ #609
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_adoration

"Eucharistic adoration is a practice in the Roman Catholic and in Anglican Churches, in which the Blessed Sacrament is exposed to and adored by the faithful."

Ref e-mail. - "Please do NOT desecrate the Eucharist in any way. Please, I beg you to NOT damage what is So PRECIOUS to me."

And Catholics have the nerve to claim that they don't practice idolatry???

By DingoDave (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Wow, this is my first time to this board. It really has become apparent that liberalism truly is a mental disorder. It seems most of you cannot hold a conversation without the use of bad language and espousing venom meant to hurt others. It is also apparent that most of you maintain a child like education of history. I suggest educating yourself by reading and personal research, instead of relying on the government and bad prefessors like Myers.

In the words of John McCain, that was just some "straight talk" for your benefit...take it or leave it.

"Uhhmm Promo, utopia never mattered to the people on top of the communist government."

IBCY, you are an idiot -- the workers utopia and "freedom" for all was the foundation of all communist theory.

As for PZ's little remark, Marx also was looking to oppose the oppression of his day and ended up creating the worst imaginable situation in history.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Are all atheists as myopic as you PZ Myers?

P.Z. won't post them because my answers are too detailed, too well researched, and too long.

Well, thats a tad presumptuous to sandwich "well researched" in there as a reason for PZ not posting them.

The short answer to the claim you are making is probably that Randi will offer you a million dollars if it's really that spectacular. You get to formulate your claim yourself and you are expected to present a protocol to test that claim that will remove all doubt about it.

I'm not 100% sure Randi is all that happy to do sectarian religious claims of this nature, but then supernatural claims are supernatural claims.

By Dutch Delight (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Too low and common to be reasonable thinking men capable of rational thought.

I thought you would love that. Wait, are you coming on to us?

Ron @ #684

I could object to much more in your post, but it's not really worth it.

"If you want to talk trash then you better be prepared to get trash back."

Looking around these threads (and the one the good catholic posted) you fail to see that very landfill?

I did not think any of you would get what I am saying. All I ask is that you learn more about what you believe to be a hoax. You may find out that a Religion that has survived for over 2000 years may have some truth to it.

Pub-medding "transubstantiation" doesn't generate even the vaguest evidence that the notion has any truth to it.

You will, however, find some interesting historical
background
on the belief. Apparently, there was serious debate in the 9th Century as to whether transubstantiation is merely symbolic or not. The prime proponent of that view, of course, was murdered by his own monks. Another popular view was that the complete loaf of bread contained the whole of Jesus' body, so the particular piece you get might be his eye or nose or big toe.

It seems like everytime I make the effort to learn about this 2,000 year old religion, the murkier it becomes. Just an accumulation of ideas that have, via survival of the fittest (literally!), managed to hang on for a bit longer than some others.

Yeah, I agree with the other people who mentioned it: #87 is priceless.

apparently the writers of many of the letters pz myers posts above never bothered to look into the story which provoked his remarks.

if they had, i think the discussion would necessarily include such topics as the appropriateness of physical assault upon congregants by church leaders in any location but most especially inside a church, the appropriateness of circulating incomplete or misleading stories in order to assassinate the character and credibility of the victim of such an assault or perhaps even a discussion of the reasonableness or unreasonableness of and reasons why catholics feel frightened and threatened in regard to their wafer.

but no, none of them apparently bothered to do what was actually very simple -- even i was able to do it -- track down details, including statements issued contemporaneously by various parties directly involved, and compare those to the wild claims being made about the seminal event. bingo, i'm no longer suffering from false and/or mis-impressions. although now instead of feeling disgusted by the obvious -- people who direct death threats at a kid who, theoretically, "pulled a prank," "behaved disrespectfully toward a common, replaceable object which, regardless of it's extraordinaily nominal financial value, is nonethelss an important symbol to members of the catholic faith," i am feeling something more akin to loathing toward an expanded group.

my sense of loathing is now extended additionally to those directly responsible for orchestrating a faux scandal for the sole purpose of covering up and/or excusing the remarkably poor self control of a "church leader" who committed an assault on an individual attending a church service in order to avoid responsibility.

these people continue to assassinate mr. cook's character and credibility with demonstrably false yet unwithdrawn claims that he is a thief, a liar, a desecrater of sacred objects and a hostage taker. not content with that, they are additionally attempting to disrupt his life further by demanding he be expelled from school, making him defend himself against their libelous and false accusations.

as a result of this outrage, mr. cook has become the center of a firestorm not of his creation but of theirs, including threats against his personal health and well-being.

but is that enough for this dangerously irresponsible group? noooo.

just when you think they can't make your head explode yet again, they have the temerity to get hysterical vapors when pz myers writes a snarky post about people who are so astonishingly stupid or willfully malicious as to deliberately mislead and provoke others into believing that mr. cook had misappropriated a wafer, a thin cracker, a bit of baked flour and water and then declared this made-up act "a hate crime" -- nay, more than a hate crime -- this was the worst possible thing you could do to a catholic, worse even than killing them.

"holy crap! what say you? you are advocating the murder of any person 'caught' violating wafer etiquette? are you kidding me? are you insane?"

personally, i think pz myers' response was appropriate and rational, if you believe that life is a precious thing and not something which should be forfeit over a difference of opinion with regard to disposal of baked goods.

once you have the facts to replace the fictional "some guy stole a communion wafer and was holding it hostage and some smarty pants college professor who's an atheist is promising more wafer theft and desecration," the only reasonable response becomes "oh, crap, they assaulted the guy? inside the church? and then they lied and accused him of stealing a wafer and holding it ransom because he doesn't like the school fees policy? and they did that after they learned he had filed a complaint with the school about having been assaulted inside the church, by a church leader? are you kidding? how much do you think they'll pay to settle with him? will bill donahue and the catholic league have to kick in some cash given his/their significant participation in smearing mr. cook's name as a desecrater, a hostage taker and a disrupter of church services? man, that's going to be one big settlement!"

pz myers' part in all this? he attempted to bring people's attention to the fact that self-identifying catholic leaders are advocating murder of perceived violaters of their idiosyncratic religious beliefs revolving around the handling of tiny, unseasoned, cheese-less baked goods.

if you search out and read the various "news" reports (primarily found at websites of various fox news affiliates and at least one florida abc affiliate) you will discover that mr. cook is directly quoted fairly extensively, explained himself clearly and comes across as an intelligent and thoughtful person, quite the opposite of the vicious caricature church officials, bill donahue and the catholic league and their supporters would have you believe.

By karen marie (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Isn't all of humanity considered 'the dregs of humanity' these days by someone? Even for minor infractions that only affect a personal viewpoint, that which in large has no effect on anything.

@681, Jenn

*puts on thick NY accent from childhood*

Alright sweetheart, seriously? Accusing those who champion skepticism and rational thought as being incapable of reasonable thinking? Insinuating that bronze age myths do consist of rational thought? You may be the one with problems of rational thought, believing in fairy tales, myths, and unverifiable stories, selecting the "truths" that you want to hear.

Dregs? Honey, dregs? You haven't met the dregs. Dregs of humanity are those that revel in the misfortunes of others... oh wait, sounds a bit like you.

*losing the accent*

Ugh, letting this shit get to me can't be good.

"PZ - be a man. Stand on your own two feet or say clearly what you mean. If you stand for logic, reason and intellectual honestly then why don't you show it."
----------------------------------------------------

Right on!

PZ is a Pussy and a hack.......he only wants to enter the "bay boy" atheist club with the stunt.

Feeling left out, PZ? Do you cry yourself to sleep over regarding your continued anonymity?

Pathetic!

This is disturbing:

Come on down to Florida. We know how to welcome bastards like you.....with a bullet.

These people are sick. How can anyone in their right mind defend or even respect a religion with parishioners such as these. I'd be afraid to go to church with these mad fucks running around in the general population.

For what it's worth, PZ, I'm sorry you have to go through this with these lunatics. I hope you are safe.

to Paul @ 691, I have left your advice since it is worthless.

ron -

I've only been commenting on this blog for a short time, but I would put money on the fact that most of his readers (and even those new to his blog like myself) realized it was satire on the get-go.

It read to me as: "Pick on someone your own size!"

It also played out beautify as a great number of people explained just how important a blessed wafer was to them personally - pleading for the wafer's safety - etc. I just don't know if ANYONE (through his words) came to the realization of how absurd and repugnant it is to emotionally invest in an object to this extreme.

Pity that.

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

You have to understand the word "dregs" first. Sediment, grounds, corrupt matter, etc. You get the idea. And humanity means just that and not "society" because there are some humans that do not live in a so called society but possibly in jungles, but are better people than what is witnessed in these comments. Can you understand that so far? Are your minds able to rise above your ignorance yet?

ron:

he first has to lose his life before he can 'get it back'.

you know why there is a request for writing the president of the unniversity? It's because ego-deprived ninnies like yourself, Donahue, Jenn, and the lot, are acting just like fundamnentalist muslims.

Grow some balls, man-up, and stop getting a boner every time someone doesn't grovel at the religion chosen by your parents.

LOL, thanks Kevin.

Jenn @ #689

Yeah, pcarini. He gives life and He TAKES it away also.

Accepting, for the moment, that God gave me life and will take it away, how am I to know which of the many gods for whom this claim is made is actually responsible?

You came from Him, and at death, you go back to Him.

What, so he is now the Earth? Are you sure you're not arguing somewhat for a pantheistic belief? Isn't that heresy in your church?

"It is also apparent that most of you maintain a child like education of history. I suggest educating yourself by reading and personal research"

This from the guy who suggested catholicism (or possibly christianity) was truthful because it had lasted over 2000 years, and then failed to comment on the wide variety of other religions that passed that same bar.

@Jenn #706

I think you just confused yourself. What was the point you were trying to make?

I don't know, Brownian--back when I was Catholic and attending Bible Study, one of the women there said she'd seriously agonize over a situation similar to this: namely, if a man with a gun pointed to her kid's head told her to renounce god or he'd shoot.

A depressingly, completely-true story.

I believe that, Catherine, and when I was a Catholic I fantasized about the similar opportunities to profess my faith in the face of death (hey, young boys think about stuff like that). Faith in God, and faith in a little bit of bread are not on par.

I doubt that realistically, the woman would have agonized if someone held a gun to her kid's head and a piece of the host over a toilet and asked her to choose which to save.

Jenn @ #706
"You have to understand the word "dregs" first. Sediment, grounds, corrupt matter, etc. You get the idea."

Oh, you mean dirt? Like what god made Adam out of?

"I frankly don't give a shit whether PZ Myers ever clears the record on his blog.

"Like I've said before what he said was BS and he need to clear the air."

"PZ - be a man. Stand on your own two feet or say clearly what you mean."

"Which will it be PZ?"

yeah, Rob, you'd never deem to tell PZ what to say. You'd never tell a blogger what to write.

Jesus, Rob, you don't even have the self-awareness not to contradict your main argument in a single post.

You repeatedly demand PZ say what you want him to say, the way you want him to say it.
You repeatedly lie about what he said. You repeatedly lie about your own demands.

You repeatedly criticize other commenters for the content of their comments and the way they express themselves, but when anyone else criticizes your comments, or points out your LIES, you either continue to spread the lies or tell people if they don't like your comments, then don't read them. A demand you don't follow yourself when it comes to others or PZ.

The entire substance of your argument is that YOU will criticize what PZ and others say and nobody can criticize what you say, and you're going to scream and cry and hold your breath until they do.

You're a pathetic little baby, Rob. A liar, a hypocrite, and a pathetic little baby. Grow the fuck up you little worm.

Jen @706 for the "Epic Fail" award.

Demonstrate in some reasonable fashion that the group of normal commenters here is ignorant. Ignorant of what, pray tell?

You have to understand the word "dregs" first. Sediment, grounds, corrupt matter, etc. You get the idea. And humanity means just that and not "society" because there are some humans that do not live in a so called society but possibly in jungles, but are better people than what is witnessed in these comments. Can you understand that so far? Are your minds able to rise above your ignorance yet?

Jenn. What jungles?

Are your minds able to rise above your ignorance yet?

Sure. You have nothing logical to say and are resorting to middle school flame wars. Easy enough. And your opinion of us ultimately matters not because it's certifiably wrong.

Why just yesterday, I was the King of Prussia and you were a mere urn with a chip on its shoulder.

Xeno - I addressed your question - see #658

"If I electrolyse it, do I end up with holy hydrogen and holy oxygen?"

Don't be ridiculous! You get two hos of hydrogen and one ly of oxygen!

In the year 2274:

Teacher: "Alright, what was the cause of the first world war?"

Student: "The assassination of Ferdinand of Austria"

Teacher: "Good, and what caused the second world war?"

Student: "Germany invading Poland."

Teacher: "Very good. And what was the cause of World War Three?"

Student: "A liberal professor insulting a baked good."

ref. Blake Stacey @ #620
"I'm still a fan of the idea that PZ "desecrate" the cracker by examining it under a microscope."

Perhaps he could dissect one using a dissection microscope. He could then run some standard tests using the chopped up pieces, to test whether there were any traces of human material present in them. This would be an appropriate method for a biologist to use for desecrating a cracker, and he'd be furthering scientific research at the same time.
Blake, you're a genius.

By DingoDave (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

@ Jason #723

Finally on this thread, something prophetic!!

PZ is playing with fire, apparently. Giordano Bruno was burnt at stake, with one of the reasons being his incorrect views on transubstantiation.

Brownian: "I believe that, Catherine, and when I was a Catholic I fantasized about the similar opportunities to profess my faith in the face of death (hey, young boys think about stuff like that)."

Not just the boys, sadly. I, too, thought about that as a young Catholic girl, and hoped that my faith would hold up like that of the martyrs. These days, I value my life, and the lives of those around me, a bit more highly.

I love how few of them can tell the differenc between a blog and a classroom.

jérôme @ 91:

that's funny, there is even one of those that actually makes some sense. (the one about the pet rock).

well, let's just say he makes more sense than his fellow pitchfork-and-torch-bearers. but even that one doesn't quite pass muster. can't fault him for trying, though.

no, a more fitting analogy would have pz demanding universal reverence for not just his own pet rock, but universal reverence for all pet rocks everywhere, and every pet rock ever made and ever to be made!

and of course, we couldn't call pz an imbecile because that would be hateful and blasphemous!

but what other possible response is there? to quote jefferson:

ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.

You have to understand the word "dregs" first. Sediment, grounds, corrupt matter, etc. You get the idea. And humanity means just that and not "society" because there are some humans that do not live in a so called society but possibly in jungles, but are better people than what is witnessed in these comments. Can you understand that so far? Are your minds able to rise above your ignorance yet?

Posted by: Jenn

The only thing I understand in this disjointed collection of words is that you must really be a very difficult person to talk to. After all, you seem to have a bit of a problem staying on your message.

Ritalin might help you, Jenn. Seriously. Whatever you were trying to say there just flew right off the rails before turning into a flaming wreck somewhere in the center of Sillytown.

Paul @ #721 (and #658)
"The Catholic Church was around for only 2000 years - that is the New Testament. Prior to that was the Old Testament which is really Judiaism that pre-dates Hiduisim."

According to Cambridge History of Religion we have Zarathustraism, Meditirranean religions AND Indian religions predating Judaism.

Is your hypothesis still that "oldest wins"?

well, since everyone else and their brother are commenting on these threads.....out of the lurking to attempt 'humour'.

@617:
"Oh well. That glass of Cabernet was pretty good. I guess I need to clean it off the monitor."

Careful Rev. BigDumbChimp, who knows WHAT they'll do when you start spitting their god's blood around!

I can has laftur?

By Protobiochemist (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Hi Big Dumb Chimp,

The Catholic Church was around for only 2000 years - that is the New Testament. Prior to that was the Old Testament which is really Judiaism that pre-dates Hiduisim.

So you're jewish? Cool.

Jesus, PZ, please don't piss off the Catholics again. Given what they've written here, they're apparently even more fucking stupid than the fundie evangelicals.

I wouldn't have thought it possible, but perhaps this is one of the mysteries they're always bloviating about (see comments by Jenn for exemplary vacuity.) I've honestly never encountered such pig-headed, uninformed, and bizarro pride in one's own inability to think, and I work for the fucking government.

What's incredibly ironic about it all is that I could argue any of these fucks under the table (both pro and con) even when I was a Catholic. If I didn't find Poes so annoying, I'd be tempted to sock puppet myself just to show these assholes what a theist who can think sounds like.

Capital Dan, The problem is your weak mind that cannot overcome your arrogance in order to understand a simple rational reasonable comment.

... You get the idea. And humanity means just that and not "society" because there are some humans that do not live in a so called society but possibly in jungles, but are better people than what is witnessed in these comments. ...

And you claim to be qualified to judge? Either of the posters or of your Jungle People? Fuck you and the self-righteous horse you rode in on. Hell, fuck you with the self-righteous horse you rode in on.

With each additional post you make it more clear that you use your religion as a stool to elevate yourself above others, and as a cudgel to beat them over the head with. I don't have too much trouble with religion in general, but it's exactly this fucking attitude that I find repugnant, and each religion I've investigated promotes it to some degree. I had always assumed the Catholic church to be more "modern", as far as making concessions to reality, than some of the others. Looks like that isn't necessarily the case.

Why I insist Professor Myers stay up all night and respond to the demands of real men! How dare he not define his satire with LOL and smileyfaces to ensure the angry masses of godfearers know his true intents! Obviously he must be cowering in his bed, fast asleep, catching Zs as only mewling liberals are wont to do while the Army of God stands vigilant against the... hey, who drank my Schlitz?

Very LATE to this party, but I think these past few threads have been the only ones where I've actually seen WOOT speak rather than post his trademark links... :-)

Totally tangent, but the Swiss Guards actually are an elite military organization. Sure, they've got the guys with the ceremonial Pole arms, but they've also got the guys with the dark suits and Glock pistols and H&K submachine guns and the like. Just like the Royal Guards at Buckingham Palace, who are also not just "toy soldiers" but some of the toughest troops in the British military.

Also, wanted to note that neither the FBI nor the Secret Service would agree with Rod on what constitutes a "Death threat".

I'm an atheist, I'm from Texas, my politics range from Green to Red, I'm staunchly pro-RKBA and own a goodly number of semiauto rifles (SKS, WASR-10, AR-15), a couple of leverguns, shotguns, and handguns (semiautos and revolvers).
I'm perfectly willing to live and let live, but I will be resisting any attempts to burn me at the stake or anything like that; Not that I think ya'll would, I'm just sayin'.
Why is it Christians assume all atheists hate guns and don't even know how to defend themselves? Don't go acting on that assumption, you crazy Christians.

Oh, and I HATE that Catholic dodge about "we just turned the guilty over to the state for punishment during the Inquisition". Still accessories to state-sanctioned murder for of innocents for victimless "crimes" against religious dogma, and we won't ever let you forget it.

Apologies.. my rant above is directed at Jenn #706.

As the night goes on, the commenters seem to be coming faster.

By Neural Transmissions (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Slightly OT... watching an Stargate SG-1 episode where the prophets of the Ori are trying to convince everyone that the Ori are the true gods! With all their contrived miracles and such. After all, the Goauld were false gods but THESE are the REAL thing.

Heh. Another reason I love scifi.

"Not just the boys, sadly. I, too, thought about that as a young Catholic girl, and hoped that my faith would hold up like that of the martyrs. These days, I value my life, and the lives of those around me, a bit more highly."

A hypothetical question was posed to our classroom in high school. The teacher asked, "If a gun was to your head, would you deny your faith?"

I was the ONLY one in the entire class (all professed Christians) that said I would not deny my faith.

Ironically, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who became an atheist.

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Okay, for a second there I thought promo was going to be given a pass on the whole "judaism predates every other religion" bullshit by hiding it in his other steaming piles of bullshit.

Real nice PZ. You're a shining example of high minded rational argument.

Apparently someone's confusing "high minded" and "rational" with hypocritical, I-respect-your-religion shutting up against religious fuckwittery.

Hey Catholic retards, that cracker you ate's gonna wind up as shit in your toilet. If THAT'S not desecration, I don't know what is.

...

OK, it's excretion.

=======

Still can't admit that you're the dregs of humanity? Too low and common to be reasonable thinking men capable of rational thought.

I don't kill. I don't smoke. I don't peddle narcotics. I don't steal. I don't drink (and drive). I don't rape altar boys. I don't rape. I don't terrorize people.

I do eat crackers. I do shit them out afterwards.

I guess that makes me the "dregs of humanity."

...

...

Retard.

Yeah - JUNGLES. That was the manly name before we had to feminize everything according to political correctness and call them "rain forests."

Capital Dan, The problem is your weak mind that cannot overcome your arrogance in order to understand a simple rational reasonable comment.

A RATIONAL REASONABLE COMMENT FROM JENN?

WHERE?!?!?!?

Seriously jenn saying something is reasonable and rational does not make it so.

If you disagree, please tell us why it is reasonable and rational.

Protobiochemist @ #732
"Careful Rev. BigDumbChimp, who knows WHAT they'll do when you start spitting their god's blood around!"

I smirked! :)
Brownian @ #734

"If I didn't find Poes so annoying, I'd be tempted to sock puppet myself just to show these assholes what a theist who can think sounds like."
So you're no longer catholic, but you're still theist? Otherwise, wouldn't said arguments have a hollow core?
Oh, wait - they already do. :(

@Jenn #735

I want you to read over your post at #706, see if *you* could understand what you were saying. Really, if literacy is not your strong suit, I'd suggest you not embarrass yourself any more.

Rev: "Were there a lot of links? Comments with a lot of links get held up in moderation most of the time."

Yes, there were 5 or so. All to my own site www.bringyou.to site and to Catholic Answers. The objections I was addressing:

(1) "transubstantiation was invented in the 8th century" -- Wrong! Demolished by me. Google for "Eucharist in the Fathers" currently I am #2 or "Augustine on the Eucharist" (#1) or "Orthodoxy and Transubstantiation" (#1)

(2) the "celiac disease" objection, I think is a good objection (I brought it up) and I didn't really address it; neither did Karl Keating in the "E-letter" linked way above by someone else from www.catholic.com

(3) the terminology on "cracker" doesn't apply to Catholic teaching; people are confusing with the literal "crackers and grape juice" used at some baptist or baptistic like services; the Catholic host or communion wafer doesn't look, taste, or feel like a cracker so it's not proper to call it that; i.e. don't say "IT'S JUST A CRACKER" say "IT'S JUST A PIECE OF BREAD" and that's fine; of course I object to P.Z. asking people to send in consecrated hosts so he can "desecrate" them, and I don't think he would do that anyway; as I mentioned, P.Z. in person is a completely different person than this "P.Z." on his blog; e.g. he would not say "F--- Y--" to Ken Miller and proceed to desecrate a consecrated host -- I highly doubt it!

And I'll add a fourth one:

(4) it is no more insane to think a piece of bread is Christ, then to think a man can be God; if Christ is God as all Christians believe (i.e. the doctrine of the Incarnation), and God said "This is My body" in the context of the Eucharist and communion service (Liturgy), and the whole history of Christianity (the Church Fathers, the Saints, and Doctors) took this Eucharist narrative literally, then it only makes sense for Christians today (i.e. Catholics, Orthodox, and many Protestants) to take this literally. And that is why the Church takes this literally and very seriously. It is not a matter of science, since it is a "mystery" (where the Latin word sacramentum or Greek mysterion comes from). And you don't desecrate "holy objects" -- that's not nice. For example, I would not take a knife to the Berlin specimen of Archaeopteryx, nor spit on the Lincoln memorial or the original Declaration of Independence or U.S. Constitution, or pea on the grave of Charles Darwin or any great scientist for crying out loud!

Read the full history of our doctrine in Anglo-Catholic scholar Darwell Stone's two-volume A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist.

That's it pretty much. I would like to go back and forth with some of you but too bad there are way too many unhelpful F--- Y-- comments on P.Z.'s blog. If P.Z. would simply set his "moderation bot" to ignore or hold up short comments with the F--- word in them, that would probably be better.

PLEASE convince me the Catholic eucharist is wrong, that Jesus didn't teach it, or any number of objections you can make. Of course you'll want to listen to all the William Lane Craig debates on my page here, he is not Catholic but defends the Christian "essentials" quite well

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm

Phil P

"A few years ago a couple thought it was funny to have sex at St. Patrick's Cathedral. The man was struck dead a few months later, not by a human, but by God."

And on his car door handle...they found...A HOOK! *AIEEEEE!*

"Hey, all you dregs of the human race"
"Of course being at the bottom of the heap, your minds cannot go above filth to a higher level."
"You have to understand the word "dregs" first. Sediment, grounds, corrupt matter, etc. You get the idea. "

Jenn? You're starting to turn me on.

Yeah - JUNGLES. That was the manly name before we had to feminize everything according to political correctness and call them "rain forests."

What? You didn't even answer my question in your disjointed answer. WHAT jungles?

Are you capable of making a coherent point? What the hell are you talking about?

Yeah - JUNGLES. That was the manly name before we had to feminize everything according to political correctness and call them "rain forests."

Wow. I've never actually watched someone get dumber by the minute.

PhilVaz #750

it is no more insane to think a piece of bread is Christ, then to think a man can be God

Yep, they're equally batshit beliefs.

By Neural Transmissions (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

@Jenn #746

Are you fucking serious? You just made me snort in my drink.

Nicole, I recall reading a Catholic school primer printed around 1920 that instructed girls it was not a sin to take one's life to prevent an act of imminently being raped.

That was when I decided the Catholic life was not for me.

It also didn't help that one Irish-American Father would question me in the confessional if I told him I'd gone past 'first base' with a gf. He wanted EVERY detail and I could hear him breathing funny.

THe Catholic and US Christian church sexual hangups were pretty convincing evidence that there was something very, very strange going on. Their hangups about all our hidden innies and outies was just so perverse that it seemed way too witchdoctory coo-coo to me.

"Yeah - JUNGLES. That was the manly name before we had to feminize everything according to political correctness and call them "rain forests.""

Oh man, this is great stuff. You should have your own one-woman show.

Phil, you never made any support for factual truth of transubstantiation. That was all a bunch of side commentary.

Were you trying to prove something there, because if you were that was an utter failure.

Was I misunderstanding your intention?

PhilVaz @ #750

If P.Z. would simply set his "moderation bot" to ignore or hold up short comments with the F--- word in them, that would probably be better.

Fuck you, Phil.

Rey, it's pretty obvious Jenn is hosting a one woman show in her own head.

Five bucks says most of her family and all of her coworkers can't stand her.

Paul says:
"it is no more insane to think a piece of bread is Christ, then to think a man can be God"

I think you're on to something here..

That aside, haven't I already asked where the line of stupid beliefs should be drawn?

Could you address this issue, please. Is threatening spaghetti eaters justified and unquestionable, because you believe in a Flying Spaghetti Monster?

PhilVaz @ #750

If P.Z. would simply set his "moderation bot" to ignore or hold up short comments with the F--- word in them, that would probably be better.

Fuck you, Phil.

Well. I may not recover from that.

PLEASE convince me the Catholic eucharist is wrong, that Jesus didn't teach it, or any number of objections you can make.

How about this? The wafer doesn't change in any measurable way during its blessing. In the absence of any compelling non-scientific reasons to believe it's anything special, I'll think of it as a piece of bread, or more likely "just a cracker".

Ten bucks says Jenn's on medication. I refuse to believe that people can be this retarded without chemical help.

Rey, it's pretty obvious Jenn is hosting a one woman show in her own head.

Five bucks says most of her family and all of her coworkers can't stand her.

Well i don't know about her friends, family or coworkers, but I LOVE HER.

That shit is GOLD.

"(4) it is no more insane to think a piece of bread is Christ, then to think a man can be God"

That's the trouble, really. Once you've opened the door to one silly unfounded belief, there's really nothing stopping you from believing all sorts of other weird things.

"For example, I would not take a knife to the Berlin specimen of Archaeopteryx, nor spit on the Lincoln memorial or the original Declaration of Independence or U.S. Constitution, or pea on the grave of Charles Darwin or any great scientist for crying out loud!"

None of which are items that are mass-produced and freely handed out to people once a week.

to Phil @750,

you are making the "presuposition" that the bible is correct. (Hope I spelled that right) Those of us here do recognize the bible as a piece of lit, we don't recognize it as being inspired by some divine being. The point isn't whether jesus laid down the rules around the eucharist, it is extremely hard to nail down jesus as an actual historical person, much less that the account of him captured the literal instructions that he gave to his followers.

To "Retard FO"...Yep! You said it! You certainly qualify as a human dreg. However, don't worry. Try using your MIND to actually THINK instead of emotionally spewing out ridiculous epithets, and you can rise above your pathetic condition.

gdlchmst: i just had a similar thought. Her posts are reminiscent of Charly from the book "flowers from algernon". except withou any experimental surgery.

"And on his car door handle...they found...A HOOK! *AIEEEEE!*"

ROFL!!!

Professor Myers! I'm a recovering catholic. I'd have to say your my hero. I would have loved to have been taught by you! And hopefully one day my child will be taught by someone like you, someone with common sense. Thank you Professor and Kudos!

By Michael Keeling (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

[me]: Fuck you, Phil.
[BDC]: Well. I may not recover from that.

I can be devastatingly witty at times...

Went to mass every Sunday until grade 1. Then lined up outside of church at 8am Mon thru Fri for mass. Then we marched across the the street to the school for 9am classes.Was an altar boy. Still went to mass with my family on Sunday. Saturday was the only day I didn't go to mass through grade 8. Then I went another 4 yrs to catholic high school. Had enough. I really believed in it . For years after realizing the wtf of it all, I hung onto occult beliefs as a substitute. These "evil" blogs have enabled me to unfold my inner thinking person. I value the earlier experience to some extent (by immersing yourself in something, you learn a lot), but it delayed my intellectual growth by decades.It's really all so very silly.Have to let go of Santa eventually if you want to grow up.

By baryogenesis (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

To "Retard FO"...Yep! You said it! You certainly qualify as a human dreg. However, don't worry. Try using your MIND to actually THINK instead of emotionally spewing out ridiculous epithets, and you can rise above your pathetic condition.

i love you

Capital Dan, The problem is your weak mind that cannot overcome your arrogance in order to understand a simple rational reasonable comment.

Posted by: Jenn

Jenn? I don't know how to tell you this, but there wasn't a single god damned thing in your babble that made the slightest bit of sense.

I'd ask others to back me up on this, Jenn, but as you can see from their response regarding comment #706, and the underused puddle of sludge between your ears that produced it, I'm thinking there really is no need.

Of course, you're far too arrogant to admit you screwed up since, well, you're a typical Bible thumping roundhead, and humility is a foreign concept to a lot of you folks.

In other words, Jenn:

And like humanity means such as just like that like and not "society" because there are some humans like, such as, The Iraq that do not live in a such as so called society like but such as possibly in jungles such as, but are like better people than what is witnessed in these comments and, such as, South Africa, such as.

Hey! I just realized something, Jenn. Are you Miss Teen South Carolina?

Phil-

I certainly think that if PZ actually starting desecrating "hosts" it would cross the line deeply from commentary to just being plane rude. I'll support you there - even though I'm an "evil atheist" :)

I'm sure there is a reasonable theological basis to the idea of transubstantiation, but I was raised Lutheran so I don't know ANYTHING about it. I do know that we most likely differ greatly on the definition of "idolatry".

I object to the sacred nature of the "host" on theological grounds only due to the idea that materials are unimportant to God. (You know: There is no circumcision or circumcision - God doesn't care if you eat sacrificed meat so get over it - The golden calf incident - blah blah blah)

I object to the sacred nature of the "host" as an atheist and humanist. I object to the idea that an impractical material object would hold so much significants to a person that they would be moved to *physically assault* a student over the matter, write anguished letters pleading for the object to be spared harm, and likening the mistreatment of the object to the mistreatment of real, living, breathing, human beings.

I don't think that is at issue here however. Vocally disagreeing with PZ's comments aren't either. I think what is really a core issue here is that CERTAIN individuals are attempting to cause REAL HARM to Mr. Cook and Dr. Meyer because of their actions (and their PERCEIVED actions).

THAT - is disturbing to me. Being a college educator myself who has very strong, controversial opinions, this issue is of direct concern to me.

Perhaps, condemning the action of those individuals is something we can agree on?

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Sorry, but your beliefs about the Eucharist don't really matter here. You know what it means to Catholics so your intention is very clear. It's an act of hatred. End of story. There is no getting around that. This is not the way that educated adults behave in a civilized society.

"For example, I would not take a knife to the Berlin specimen of Archaeopteryx, nor spit on the Lincoln memorial or the original Declaration of Independence or U.S. Constitution, or pea on the grave of Charles Darwin or any great scientist for crying out loud!"

Ok, how about this: What if a group of crazy people told you that all toilet paper on the planet was exactly the same as the U.S. constitution and equally "sacred." Would you still wipe your ass with it?

I mean, if crackers can be holy and a bunch of people can swallow that BS, this isn't exactly a stretch.

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

for god's sake, don't pea on anyone's grave!

jenn

just because you use the word 'rational' does not make you yourself rational.

just because you use the word 'think' (and capitalize all letters) does not mean you yourself are performing that function.

you of all people should be cautious of using such words.

Man, I call PZ's atheism and raise him two blasphemies.

I'm just more of a humanist than an atheist and can understand (while I disagree) with the whole reason the Catholics got their nose out of joint.

What doesn't appear on this blog is PZ's statement to his local newspaper that he meant the post as satire.

Fine, it was satire. However, it's quite apparent to this stupid Texan that a large majority of the rest of the world didn't quite grasp that fact and are now talking trash about atheists.

I'm just sick of the fact that PZ stirs up a whole bunch of crap, and then proceeds to wash his hand of the whole mess saying, "See, they're crazy."

Yes, some of them are crazy. However PZ has stirred up the ire of the other 95% who were were content to let atheists be so long as we let them be. How did he do that? By threatening to fuck with them.

Now a bunch of you people think it's OK and well within your rights to fuck with people you don't like. I strongly disagree. Just because I have a right to do something doesn't mean that I should do it.

I'm all for PZ's right to fuck with people. It's a free country and free speech gives him the right to say whatever in the fuck he wants. However, don't go out and fuck with people and then try to play some sort of lame victim card.

PZ enjoy your trip to Atlanta. I will strongly support your right to stir the shit. However, I reserve the right to cuss you when your shit starts hitting others.

I think right now your shit is getting spread far and wide.

By Ron in Houston (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

@ Jenn @771

Keep digging, you are halfway to China. Seriously, post a cogent argument for your position. The things that you are responding to were written because you haven't actually posted a cogent argument yet!

FFS, stop being a parrot and think!

The FSC would have pounded you into the figurative dirt for writing the things that you have done on a homework assignment!

"I mean, if crackers can be holy and a bunch of people can swallow that BS, this isn't exactly a stretch."

OctoberMermaid you are one a dumb, salty cunt.

rey fox @ 769 ftw:

none of which are items that are mass-produced and freely handed out to people once a week.

scooooore!!!

However PZ has stirred up the ire of the other 95% who were were content to let atheists be so long as we let them be.

The OTHER 95%!?!?!?!

Shit! I'm not answer the phone when my mother calls.

Jim @ #780

"You know what it means to Catholics so your intention is very clear. It's an act of hatred. End of story. There is no getting around that."

It's getting tiresome to point out, but when does a belief transcend the barrier between "obviously stupid, which anyone can point out" and "obviously stupid, which noone can point out due to people believing it"?
Would you stop eating spaghetti, if it were sacred to me?

Jim - If you go back to read PZ's original post, it is clear that the majority of his anger is directed at individuals who he NAMES and QUOTES, concerning their actions against a student in Florida.

He was certainly harsh - and I really can't "see into his heart" to know how he feels.

However, I do know that I personally tend to separate my hatred of religion and my hatred for people. I tend to avoid hating people.

A good analogy is the Christian mantra of "hating the sin, but loving the sinner".

I hate religion. I hate religion the way some people hate famine and disease. I do not, however, hate religious people. Just like those who feed the hungry to not HATE the hungry people - but hate the hunger.

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

However PZ has stirred up the ire of the other 95% who were were content to let atheists be so long as we let them be.

They were never content to just let atheists be, they are just legally bound to do so.

HEHEHE.

After reading what people sent in support of PZ and what people actually sent to PZ...

I don't think he has anything to worry about.

Well, you boys probably don't have families, do you? You're too disagreeable, mean, arrogant and stupid, really, to put it bluntly. You're none of you are man enough to love anyone but yourselves.

"Sorry, but your beliefs about the Eucharist don't really matter here. You know what it means to Catholics so your intention is very clear. It's an act of hatred. End of story."

Yeah, they believe a bland snack food is the literal, honest-to-goodness flesh of their one-in-three kaleidoscope wacky God.

We should totally, like, respect that. It's not crazy or stupid at all. No, it's a fluffy, warm security blanket to insulate them from reality, so we should totally leave it alone. Nevermind that these people sometimes find their way into positions of power and do wacky, silly, lovable things like kill people who believe differently or decide important decisions based on stories from their favorite myths.

I guess as long as a lot of people believe something really stupid, it's beyond reproach. Who needs evidence or rationality. A lot of people get all warm and fuzzy over it, so let's leave it alone. They weren't the "Dark Ages," they were the "Cozy, romantically-lit Ages!"

You know how educated, civilized adults should NOT act? Like spoiled petulant children who throw a tantrum when they're told that their favorite TV show is make-believe.

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

This is not the way that educated adults behave in a civilized society.

Somebody mixed up the entrance signs again. This here's a blog, Jim. You wanted the other door. Look for the jackboots symbol next time.

Kevin @#758

Yikes! That's one I haven't heard yet. Scary.

Luckily I missed most of the sex-guilt. My mother made sure to have the sensible "birds and bees" talks with me.

My favorite was after a particularly guilt-filled sex education class for our confirmation education. After hearing about how birth control was an abomination and all that jazz, she explained condoms and the pill on the car ride home, and made me promise to use them when I was old enough for sex. And believe it or not, I turned out just fine! Take that, abstinence-only nuts.

Oh boy... just got "Every Sperm is Sacred" stuck in my head...

I'm so amused by all this, but I think it's bedtime... I have produce to pickup tomorrow morning. Wonder if it will come with crackers?

BGT - Is that short for bigot?

Jim, wrong.

By your argument, any belief, and any little worthless object, if considered holy and sacred by some group of demonstrably delusional people, must then be treated as sacred by everyone else.

Bullshit. If an idiotic, insane idea is cherished by Catholics, or Jews, or Scientologists, do the sane people have to treat it as sacred? NO.

And frankly, Jim, since it's extremely unlikely that you yourself treat as sacred everything everyone else holds sacred, then making that statement makes you a hypocrite.

Have you ever eaten a hamburger, Jim? If so, you're a hypocrite.

Jen # 796,

with that comment you have crossed from being a child that needs to be rudely awakened into being a simple troll.

Congrats for piss poor reasoning skills.

Well, you boys probably don't have families, do you? You're too disagreeable, mean, arrogant and stupid, really, to put it bluntly. You're none of you are man enough to love anyone but yourselves.

There you go again saying things that let us peek into your window of idiocy.

Well I might be mean and disagreeable. Occasionally I am arrogant. I'm one HELL of a cook.

Stupid I'm going to say no. My wife (oooops family :) ) might disagree.

did i say i LOVE you jenn?

BGT - Is that short for bigot?

Jenn, don't use words that you don't understand.

Just in case there was any doubt about the insanity of Catholics, look at this email. It's got Satan, Saint Michael, Mary, the devil, and God, all in one paragraph.

"Are you in love with yourself. Satan has tried for over 2000 years to destroy us (Catholic Church) and has failed miserably. You will, too. Saint Michael defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him. Mary, Mother of God, protect your Church from those that wish us harm."

"Try using your MIND to actually THINK instead of emotionally spewing out ridiculous epithets, and you can rise above your pathetic condition."

Yes Mistress, I am worthless, I am scum, I am dregs! Please whip me again!

"Well, you boys probably don't have families, do you? You're too disagreeable, mean, arrogant and stupid, really, to put it bluntly. You're none of you are man enough to love anyone but yourselves."

But Mistress, I love you! Even though I know I am not worthy, I love you! Please...just let me kiss your stiletto-heels to prove it!

ron said, "However PZ has stirred up the ire of the other 95% who were were content to let atheists be so long as we let them be. How did he do that? By threatening to fuck with them"

Nonsense.

Catholics have always been on the which hunt to take advantage of other minority groups so as to benefit from increased influence. Think WWII, bozo. Bill Donahue is doing exactly that.

Also, PZ never threatened anyone. Not only does satire mean "not serious, taken in jest", but if he were going to fucking with anything, it would be a few carbohydrate calories, not actual human beings, a point I believe that was made in addressing the original article.

Perhaps if all your wacko friends were decisive in killing cephalopods, then I think we'd be on equal terms. (And that's a stretch I can take no further for you).

Jim @ #780:

Sorry, but your beliefs about the Eucharist don't really matter here.

Neither does yours. Until you come up with a valid (i.e. not invoking the big sky-daddy) reason why just talk of "mistreating" a piece of bread justifies death threats, and why handling it justifies unwanted physical abuse, than your beliefs have no place here either. Beliefs are fine, but where they intersect with the real world care must be taken that they aren't valued over human life.

You know what it means to Catholics so your intention is very clear. It's an act of hatred. End of story.

Hatred against whom? The cracker? Sorry, hate-crimes require an actual crime to have been committed. Hurting somebody's feelings is not a hate-crime.

"Ok, how about this: What if a group of crazy people told you that all toilet paper on the planet was exactly the same as the U.S. constitution and equally "sacred." Would you still wipe your ass with it?

I mean, if crackers can be holy and a bunch of people can swallow that BS, this isn't exactly a stretch."

Actually, it is a stretch. You can call that person crazy for his view of that toilet paper if you want to. But there is a BIG difference here. You can go to the store and purchase all the toilet paper you want and do whatever you want to do with it. But when you know how that "crazy person" views the toilet paper in his possession, and you decieve him into giving it to you for no other reason than to desecrate it for your own amusement, then it's an act of hatred. If you told that person what you thought about his toilet paper and what you intended to do with it, he'd never give it to you.

If you really believed that there is no difference, then why not just go to the store and buy some crackers? Or why don't you just order some hosts online? Your actions are as clear as can be. There is a world of difference between the two.

Or better yet, why not just live and let live? What's with the juvenile behavior? Does that really better society?

Craig @ #802

"If an idiotic, insane idea is cherished by Catholics, or Jews, or Scientologists, do the sane people have to treat it as sacred? NO."

Dammit Craig, that whole post was great. Why must you say what I wanted to say, only much better? :/

Jen @801

I shouldn't feed the troll, but have you ever heard of Morris Garages? You are probably way to young to know what that is. Put MG in front of the handle, and then do a google search.

As for your reasoning skills, and how they would have been looked upon by the FSC, here is my high school:

http://www.cbhs.org

and here is my college:

http://www.cbu.edu

None of the Brothers would have given you passing grades on anything that required some serious thought. I respect them, I have none for you.

Well, you boys probably don't have families, do you?

I, for one, don't believe my family is the business of a mean-mouthed, insulting internet troll who has yet had anything to say that relates to the debate between reason and the unreasonableness shown to a young college student who 'kidnapped' an inanimate object.

Say goodnight, Jenn. The brainworms are blocking the content again.

I love the blend of comments. Its a nice mix of "religion deserves respect" and "you're picking on catholics because they're peaceful" mixed in with "well okay pick on Islam, we don't like that one" and death threats from those peaceful catholics.

Okay, naz. Look at what some of your Catholic brothers and sisters are writing in this post. They are disgracing their religion, YOUR religion, with their hatred.

"If an idiotic, insane idea is cherished by Catholics, or Jews, or Scientologists, do the sane people have to treat it as sacred? NO."

Dammit Craig, that whole post was great. Why must you say what I wanted to say, only much better? :/

Do any of the catholic whiners eat beef? Our hindu brothers and sisters are completely OFFENDED that you do.

This is a great example of why I find the idea of organised religion silly. We're supposed to believe a Supreme Being capable of creating the entire Universe is so obsessed with trivia that the disposition of a piece of unleavened wafer is so important to him that his followers should get upset about it. Sorry, does not compute.

jim said, "Or better yet, why not just live and let live? What's with the juvenile behavior? Does that really better society?"

Clearly you have skipped the blog post and went right to the bottom of the comments section.

"Well, you boys probably don't have families, do you? You're too disagreeable, mean, arrogant and stupid, really, to put it bluntly. You're none of you are man enough to love anyone but yourselves."

Seriously Jenn - Could you lay off the misogyny for a couple hours? Also, could you make a point somewhere between all the sexist insults?

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"Or better yet, why not just live and let live? What's with the juvenile behavior? Does that really better society?"

EXCELLENT question! Course, we'd be pleased as peaches to live and let live, but the trouble is, silly people with silly beliefs start forgetting that old line about how "your right to swing your fist ends at my face."

But I forgot. It's the mean old atheists who are the bad guys, and the poor, helpless religious, er, minority who are the persecuted.

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"Does that really better society?"

If it ends up with less people willing to kill over crackers, then yes, it does better society.

I have produce to pickup tomorrow morning. Wonder if it will come with crackers?

Must. Resist. Innuendo. Jokes.

Gnite, Nicole. Pleasant dreams.

I'm going to bed. I had intentions to be up for the sunrise for some photography ... but that is in 4 hours. I'll still make it.

But I want to leave with this one thought

Jenn

i love you.

octobermermaid: your post provoked a thought. yes, numberwise we are a minority.

but are we not the rational majority? that's kinda catchy actually....

gdlchmst said:

"They were never content to just let atheists be, they are just legally bound to do so."

Given. However, PZ has now given them ammunition to claim that we're just a bunch of irreligious terrorists.

I'd love to be able to clear this mess up by posting somewhere that I think PZ didn't mean it and was just engaging in satire.

I can't. PZ can, but it doesn't appear that he's able or willing.

By Ron in Houston (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Capital Dan. My comments started in the 200's under another name, so no, you wouldn't understand - mainly because it makes sense.

"Does that really better society?"

If it ends up with less people willing to kill over crackers, then yes, it does better society.

Until the Cheez-Whiz transubstantiators show up on their Big Wheels and threaten to get us fired from the plantation..

"By your argument, any belief, and any little worthless object, if considered holy and sacred by some group of demonstrably delusional people, must then be treated as sacred by everyone else."

And for all those similar comments, you're free to eat however many crackers you want to and do whatever else you want to. But your intent to go into a Catholic church to take what would not be given to you if you stated your intention up front is wrong. Regardless of what Catholics believe, they hold a small few consecrated hosts in their possession. They're not trying to stop grocery stores for selling crackers. They're not trying to prevent the sale of unconsecrated hosts either. Nobody is forcing their beliefs on you. Nobody is pushing you inside of a Catholic church. Make fun of Catholics all you want to. Eat all the crackers you want to. But to go out of your way to go into a Catholic church and take what would not otherwise be given to you is wrong. And your actions are filled with hatred.

Cows are everywhere. Consecrated Hosts exist only inside the walls of a Catholic church. There is a WORLD of difference. You can very easily live your life quite happily without ever pissing off Catholics. You do so only for your own amusement.

sinmantyx #820

I think that counts as misandry. :P

By Neural Transmissions (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Given. However, PZ has now given them ammunition to claim that we're just a bunch of irreligious terrorists.

They can claim what they want, it doesn't make it true. Now if it is the PR problem you are worried about, then you don't understand what PZ is trying to do.

Jim @ #811:

[comparing belief in the eucharist to a crazy person who thinks toilet paper is sacred] ... But when you know how that "crazy person" views the toilet paper in his possession, and you decieve [sic] him into giving it to you for no other reason than to desecrate it for your own amusement, then it's an act of hatred. ...

I believe an act of hatred has to have, well, hate involved. Show me how having a jest at a crazy person's expense implies hatred of the person. Say the crazy person thought you were dead serious, was anybody harmed? What about a person who hasn't yet been given the toilet paper by the crazy person, but instead makes a half serious comment about what he'd do with the toilet paper?

Is "Conspiracy to Use Toilet Paper For a Cause Not Explicitly Intended by The Provider of Said Toilet Paper" in the lawbooks somewhere?

Well, you boys probably don't have families, do you? You're too disagreeable, mean, arrogant and stupid, really, to put it bluntly. You're none of you are man enough to love anyone but yourselves.

Posted by: Jenn

Well, now... That's just a brilliant piece of attention whoring writing there, Jenn. Do you even think when you're typing, or do you just enjoy banging on the keys?

It's funny, though. You're reduced to attacking what you think are our family lives, but, oddly, not only do they have nothing to do with this conversation, you are also completely ignorant about them. But, that doesn't stop you in your petty, self-righteous judgment, does it?

It's kind of sad to see someone so lonely that they will make a monumental ass out of themselves just so people will pay attention to her.

#825

"octobermermaid: your post provoked a thought."

I'm sorry. That has never been my intention and I refuse to take any responsibility.

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Thank you, PZ!

As a Catholic I would like to thank you for showing the true extremist, ignorant colors of atheism.

And we all thank you for contributing to his popularity by posting a comment on his blog!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play scum cookie with a few friends and a eucharist.

#820 - sinmantyx - The comment was in response to being asked if my family and friends/co-workers hated me. Yopu know...more of the hate speech that's in this blog.

#820 - sinmantyx - The comment was in response to being asked if my family and friends/co-workers hated me. You know...more of the hate speech that's in this blog.

They reeeeeeely don't get it.

Think about it Catholics... you're upset about people making fun of your wafers.

Think about WHY. Never mind, you won't. This is so silly.

These people just make me happy to not be one of them. Deluded and ridiculous.

I think what Jenn really craves is to be laid. Then again, isn't that what we all want.

Naz, they will only be seen as hate crimes by idiots.

A hate crime is something which is a crime anyway, with the added motivation of hate.

If I stomp on a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that someone gave me under the pretenses I was going to eat it - all to prove my contempt for the the PB&J, it's NOT a hate crime no matter how loudly some sandwich worshipper wails that it is.

Furthermore, this is not a case of PZ threatening a cracker just to piss of Catholics for fun. Its a case of insane Catholics threatening the LIFE of a kid for keeping a cracker out of curiosity.
Catholics threaten the kids life, they organize a campaign to get him booted from school.
When PZ makes a mock threat to their sacred cracker as a way of pointing out their horrible actions toward this poor kid, HIS life is threatened, and an organized campaign is mounted to get him fired.

But you're mad about the fucking cookie. NO mention of the threats to PZ or the kid.

You know what that makes you, Naz? It makes you immoral.

Of all the complaining Catholics coming here, none denounced the threats against the kid. The only mention of the the threats by them was to claim they were hoaxes.

NONE denounced the attempts to get the kid booted from school. A couple denounced the attempts to get PZ fired, most didn't.

THATS the story here.
1. Kid keeps cracker out of curiosity.
2. Insane Catholics threaten kids life and school career.
3. PZ criticizes them for this
4. Catholics mount campaign to get PZ fired, with press releases containing deliberate distortions of fact.

Thats it. Delusional nutcases acting crazy and threatening people, and outraged that someone is calling them on their immoral, dangerous and insane behavior.

Someone said "the whole world is watching." True. The world is watching a bunch of insane religious fanatics attempt to terrorize others... and fail.

It's kind of fun to watch from the sidelines, but I don't understand why you all are wasting so much energy on a troll like Jenn. There hasn't been much of a point to the conversation over the last hours. It's just been a tennis match of insults.

By Neural Transmissions (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

My, oh, my, there are a lot of Catholics here...

I'm surprised nobody's brought up another bit of history. In the Middle Ages, peasants used to take pieces of the Eucharist during Easter and take them to plant in their fields, to help bless them and make them more fertile. (Obviously, given the Black Death and similar events, it didn't really work.) Christianity back then basically was Catholicism; there wasn't really another form yet. Would that be considered desecration today?

Oh, and I'm just going to throw this out there: It's not even a particularly tasty cracker. Honestly, if they used Carr's Water Biscuits, it might be a bit more persuasive, but as it is Jesus tastes like a rather tough Saltine. Isn't the fact that they can't even make Jesus delicious desecration?

@ naz, 799: I took Myers' comments at the time as a joke - a very, very funny one - and I still think he was making one and it was good. It was all of y'all Catholics that went and turned this into a serious shouting match. I especially love the way you keep whining that nobody's picking on the OTHER religions - how very tolerant and mature of you! Remember, Myers wasn't the one making death threats to anyone - you were, to a student (who was in fact Catholic as well!) and a university professor who was expressing personal views in a blog community mostly peopled by atheists, agnostics, nontheists, and deists. In other words, his comments were made for and intended for a specific audience, who understood the joke and got it. Who's hating now?

Dear "Lord" PZ!

My father passed the information of this "heinous" act on to me on July 11th and I had to see to believe it(Am I a "Doubting Thomas" then?).

Anyway, the cracker in question is just a symbol. That is what gets me a riled up about this. The bread is just symbolizing the "Body of Christ" just like the wine symbolizes the "Blood of Christ". While I could if I wanted to, I will not send you any Eucharist. While I'm not a very devout Chatholic/Christrian (lost track of which one I really am over my 19 years in the faith) I hold it to a little respect for the Host, but i love reading thinga like this. If one can not laugh at one's own faith, then one is taking it way too seriously.

By Ryne Hatfield (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"You know how educated, civilized adults should NOT act? Like spoiled petulant children who throw a tantrum when they're told that their favorite TV show is make-believe."

I'm not throwing a temper tantrum because of a difference in beliefs. You're free to believe whatever you want to believe. None of this is about a difference in beliefs. It's about childish behavior. It's about a person's actions, not a person's beliefs.

How to desecrate a wafer, while showing complete respect:

First, obtain two communion wafers, one consecrated, the other one not.

Switch them around a few times, so you can't tell which one is which.

Then invite Mr. Donohue, and perhaps a priest, over to determine which one is which.

They won't be able to. There's no difference between the two, and this experiment proves it.

And there you are; desecration complete. You could even give both wafers, untouched, to Mr. Donohue; for your spiritual point will be proven.

By paradoctor (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

@ 841

I will leave that up to the rest of you brave souls here to plumb those depths. Unfortunately, in direct contradiction to Jenn's earlier comments, I do have a family, and don't feel that attempting to satisfy that particular craving of Jen's would be conducive to keeping that family, much less be exciting enough for me to be able to finish....

gdlchmst

I appreciate that PZ was satirizing the whole absurdity of the UCF incident. However, he could have accomplished that goal without causing a massive PR mess.

He could even fix some of the PR mess but has chosen not to do so. I'm trying to withhold judgment. However, I'm not too hopeful so far.

By Ron in Houston (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

#835 - Capital Dan - See post above to sinmantyx. It's was no business of anyone to ask me if my family, friends and co-workers hate me. Why are you so angry? Did I hit a raw nerve? So according to you, it's OK for people to be
anti-Catholic bigots, Catholic bashers, Catholic haters and to say anything you want even about my family, but it isn't OK for me to say that you are a mere little boy, wearing his emotions on his sleeve while his brain lies asleep.

You are right, Neural Transmissions. Which is why I will bid you all good night.

Happy cracker abusing.

Also, PZ's original request was this:

Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?

He didn't ask any atheist to go through the line under false pretenses and get a cracker, nor did he ask anybody to break into a church and get one. Is it entirely unthinkable that some more liberal Catholic would palm one and send it along? Perhaps someone out there doesn't necessarily buy the literal interpretation of the eucharist and also thinks that this whole flap is silly. Someone upthread a way said he knew a priest who wouldn't have a problem passing one along. Would this still be considered a hate-crime, even if done by a Catholic?

Naz: When did you people become so warped and socially autistic?

On July 12, 2008 at precisely 2:56 AM .

And Jim, try not grouping us all as one entity. Some of the folks here have tried to seriously address these things reasonably. Some, like me, are playing around because - in my case - I think teasing overly serious folks is amusing. Which makes me a prick, occasionally. Me, not them.

Ever hear that reformed smokers are the worst? Well, reformed Catholics can be just as bad. I don't like what the Catholic Church has taught me, don't consider it any more sacred than the Elks Club, and frankly, I've seen it mess up a lot of lives pretty bad. So in my case, it's not just about amusement. And it's not to provoke hatred. It's to express my own opinion that the destructiveness of the Catholic church, like other branches of other faiths has no claim to demand that I must respect it.

I respect more than a few Catholics, but not the Vatican, not the extremists and certainly not the cretinous mercenary merchants like Donohue.

Craig @ #842

"Of all the complaining Catholics coming here, none denounced the threats against the kid."

It's that "priest raping children" story all over again.

Did anyone ask the shit-for-brains Catholics here what the Ruler of the Universe would think about a university student who refuses to eat a cracker? Does Mr. God give a shit about a cracker?

"I'm trying to withhold judgment. "

Ok, after your many other posts, this is just really funny.

I see that the concern troll wankers are still at it, thread after thread. Considering how ineffective their "You shouldn't do that!" whines are, one can see it as a form of insanity.

By truth machine, OM (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"EXCELLENT question! Course, we'd be pleased as peaches to live and let live, but the trouble is, silly people with silly beliefs start forgetting that old line about how "your right to swing your fist ends at my face."

But I forgot. It's the mean old atheists who are the bad guys, and the poor, helpless religious, er, minority who are the persecuted."

The point I've made repeatedly is that nobody is forcing Atheists into Catholic churches to take the Eucharist and do with it what they choose. You are correct that "your right to swing your fist ends at my face." If nobody ever went into a Catholic church to take something deceitfully, then there wouldn't be any issues at all. It's a REALLY easy concept.

#850

People were saying your family and those around you probably don't like you because all we've seen of you here is a miserable, unstable jerk.

Your response to this was to be a miserable, unstable jerk.

People point this out to you and you cleverly respond by being a miserable, unstable jerk.

You just spout off random crazy things without anything to back it up. People can't talk to you rationally because you aren't rational. You're either a troll or just a few notches above being functionally retarded.

I mean, I really don't even know what to say to you or if it's even worth paying any more attention to you at all.

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Ron

I appreciate that PZ was satirizing the whole absurdity of the UCF incident. However, he could have accomplished that goal without causing a massive PR mess.

PZ is not trying to win over any converts, he is trying to make atheist rights as accepted and mainstream as women's rights and black rights. In order to do that, he pushes the envelope (Although one can hardly call what PZ said pushing the envelope).

Now really, good night all.

Naz,

"One or two kids on campus threaten him - NOT all Catholics or the Catholic Church..."

I want you to verify this statement with sources.

"PZ's used this small incident to promote his anti Catholic bigotry and to incite hate against Catholics for his own gain, nothing more, nothing less."

I want you to verify this by explaining how you can read minds.

Very low - and it is very low that the atheists on here do not see this stunt and call for aggression against Catholic practices as unethical.

The atheists on here see that you're a pathetic shit who gives them all the more reason to think poorly of Catholics. Well done.

By truth machine, OM (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Try to "explain" all you want; however, the fact remains that these "Death threats" are a canard....

One or two kids on campus threaten him - NOT all Catholics or the Catholic Church...

Your saying that one or two death threats is acceptable as retaliation for someone taking a cracker home instead of eating it?

OK gnite folks... my last observation...
In a few days this will have blown over. Jesus will be the same as he always has been (nonexistent).
Catholics will move on to their next outrage, whatever Fox and Donohue tell them.

PZ will keep his job, won't retract a thing, will have added yet more readers to his blog, and will continue criticizing crazy BS.

In all of this, there have basically been a very few kinds of comments.
1. Catholics outraged. Big surprise there.
2. A few Catholics have said things like "I never/always knew atheists were so horrible." Bad PR? No. None of these people were ever about to defend atheism in any way shape or form.
3. Many atheists saying "wow these people are crazy." Same as above, no minds changed, no net effect.

and most importantly
4. Those who have posted, nominal Catholics some, new atheists others, who have said this has really opened their eyes to how deranged religion can make people.

The worst you a rational person could come away from this thinking about atheists are rude and perhaps even intolerant. The worst a rational person can come away from this thinking about the religious is that they are completely irrational and in fact dangerous.

Job done.

naz:
"Socially autistic?"

There's that catchphrase again. We got some serious sock-puppetry going on here.

jenn:
"My comments started in the 200's under another name"

And there's the proof. Who is really who? Is Jenn actually not the hot dominatrix I've taken her to be? The foundation is crumbling under my feet! Help me Jesus! Verily there is no truth without thee!

Hey shit-for-brains naz. Do you think God gives a shit about crackers?

Do you think your creator of the universe really cares if some human ape on an insignificant planet does not want to eat a cracker?

Do Catholics ever have an original thought? Do they ever think for themselves? Have they ever considered the possibility that some or all of their beliefs are bullshit? Or do they just blindly believe everything they were trained to believe?

Catholics are like dogs. Train the dog or train the Catholic, and they will do what they're told.

Rey, I've suspected for quite a while that Rob and a bunch of others for the last few hours are the same person.

With the risk of sounding like all the rest of you, I'll add my vote to one large sock-puppet farm in action! ;)

Someone needs to make some "I have a Eucharist cracker in my pocket" t-shirts. I'm sure over the course of a month of steady exposure and assaults, the image of Catholicism around the country would be damaged enough to ensure that hundreds of altar boys go unmolested for the next three years.

What a bunch of babies.

You have silly beliefs... atheists think almost ALL religious beliefs and rituals are silly and a stupid waste of time. There's nothing special about the catholic faith. It just seems to have its own peculiar "body of christ, blood of christ" weirdness. It's RIPE for mocking and ridicule. But it's not special in anyway. Just funny. Too fucking bad. Don't read PZ's blog.

He's called for the desecration of WAFERS. Bad tasting stupid pieces of bread(not even really) that catholics imbue with meaning. It's your silly faith that gives that almost worthless cracker importance because a priest says a prayer and then a mythical god makes that cracker special because the priest asked him to.

It's GOOFY. As goofy as holding a necklace and saying Hail Mary's and Our Fathers.

It's just been a tennis match of insults.

I'm always lookin' for that Thirty Love.

And Ron? What 'PR mess' do you refer to? PZ's job is not at risk. His teaching skills are well thought of by thousands beyond his physical classroom. He's indicated that most of those who threaten him don't frighten him because he can spot the blowhards. Controversy provides a broader audience, and not all are detractors. You might prefer not to be unpopular with a few dozen people. But PZ was making a very pertinent point about how crazy some folks act about silly things. And did so quite well.

Nobody gets into a public debate on religiousity without expecting detractors. So you're trying to suggest ways PZ can clean something up that he doesn't think requires a broom nor a mop.

Advice to fix what isn't broken just really doesn't persuade much.

#850 Jenn

I really hate the Christian religion - including Catholicism. I hate the Muslim religion as well. I dislike the Jewish religion. I have a very strong loathing for Scientology. I think Mormonism is particularly bizarre.

Religion is NOT like race, sexual orientation or ethnicity. Religion is something you chose. It involves modes of thinking, rituals, dogma, etc. However, unlike race, sexual orientation and ethnicity: it does not describe who a person IS. Instead, religion describes how a person sees the world around them.

It is entirely possible to strongly dislike a religion and still have compassion and even LOVE for those bound by that religion.

For example: Is hating "honor killings" hating Muslims? - or is acting against "honor killings" showing respect and love for women being murdered by their families in the name of "honor"?

I'm sorry some people on this forum have insulted you - but stooping down and throwing insults doesn't work.

Sometimes "reasoned" debate doesn't "work" either, however. Many times theists and atheists have perspectives so different from one another, that the disconnect in world-view simply hampers any sort of meaningful discussion.

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Thanks Naz.

Again, a Catholic discounts death threats against the kid. Again, same Catholic doesn't even mention that Catholics in official positions (not "kids") tried to get him booted from school.

Again, no denunciations of the threats against PZ.
Again, no denunciations of attempts to get him fired for expressing his opinion on his own blog.

AGAIN, a claim that a man posting to his own blog is an attack on others, an attempt to get attention - with no corresponding mention of the Catholics who in their attempts to get him fired... SENT OUT PRESS RELEASES.

A blog post is a cry for attention, but press releases are not worth mentioning.

NO MENTION of the fact that in these press releases, these devout, ever-so-moral Catholics used the God-honored tactic of DISTORTING THE TRUTH.

Thanks you, Naz/Rob/Jenn whoever the fuck. Thank you and please keep posting.

We need you to keep demonstrating that religion is not only insane, but that it provides the perfect excuse so many need for being immoral, dishonest and to attempt to hurt and control others.

It's about childish behavior. It's about a person's actions, not a person's beliefs.

In your case, yes, it's about you being a patronizing git, aka a concern troll. Here's clue: no one is going to change their behavior as a result of your wankery; on the contrary, it just encourages us!

By truth machine, OM (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

@#11 Jammer --

Jesus H. Christ people...it's a CRACKER...lighten the hell up!

That's sort of the problem. I'm willing to bet the vast majority, if not all of them, aren't able to *really* believe the absurd notion that a cracker is actually the body of Jesus -- but they want to at least believe that they believe. So rather than letting PZ's statement stand as a threat to their tenuously held theology, they use it as a way to reinforce it -- after all, if they are vehement enough in their opposition of PZ's stance (death threats being the most extreme case), they must be equally vehement in their crazy cracker belief.

p.s. Yes, I'm back :).

Making fun of religion isn't hate...

it's fun!

I really would love to see one of you show me where this atheist hate of Catholics that PZ supposedly incited is.

Throughout the comments, not one person makes the claim that they hate Catholics. Many, many posters use this atheist hate as proof of something or the other, but it doesn't seem to exist, at least not on this thread.

Finding someone's beliefs to be silly or even repugnant is entirely different from having hate toward that person. Hell, one can even hate someone's beliefs or ideas without having any hate for that person.

Very low - and it is very low that the atheists on here do not see this stunt and call for aggression against Catholic practices as unethical.

"aggression against Catholic practices"? Can a person be aggressive toward something as nebulous as a practice? Can you show me an example from this thread of someone demonstrating aggression toward a practice? Was somebody hurt in the process?

Hey, people...you do realise that it's a cracker, right?
This is insane.

And for those who are unaware, the transubstantiation dogma, AFAIK, states that the accident (physical part) of the bread is all that remains of the original cracker. That is why it (superficially) appears to remain a cracker, and resemble a cracker in any and all conceivable ways. Spiritually (you know, where it counts), it's Jesus.

Rev: "Phil, you never made any support for factual truth of transubstantiation. That was all a bunch of side commentary. Were you trying to prove something there, because if you were that was an utter failure. Was I misunderstanding your intention?"

I'll try again. The objection made earlier (I think made twice now) was "transubstantiation was invented in the 8th or 9th century." That's what I disputed. The post that hasn't shown up yet demonstrated (with links, I'll avoid the links now):

FACT (1) the first one to teach a purely "symbolic" Eucharist was Berengarius (or Berengar) of Tours c. 1050 AD;

FACT (2) the word "transubstantiation" wasn't used until the 11th and 12th centuries, and it was first officially endorsed at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 AD; although this is not a problem because of Fact (4);

FACT (3) the Radbertus-Ratramnus "debate" of the 9th century wasn't over "transubstantiation" or "symbolic" Eucharist either;

FACT (4) ALL the orthodox Fathers, Saints, and Doctors of the Church from St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD) to St. Thomas Aquinas (13th century) held a Catholic view of a literal, real, substantial "presence of Christ" in the Eucharist, even though the word "transubstantiation" wasn't used early on (it WAS used by Aquinas who lived after the 1215 AD Fourth Latern Council);

FACT (5) the terminology that WAS used by the Fathers, Saints, and Doctors were the Latin/Greek terms for "change" or "transform" or "convert" of the bread/wine elements into the "body and blood of Christ" which very closely approximates the word -transubstantiation- (or "change of substance");

FACT (6) the Orthodox believe the same thing as Catholics (using the Greek term -metousiosis- for "change of substance"), and they inherit the same eastern Fathers as us who used very literal terminology (e.g. St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Alexandria and St. John Damascene).

If Facts (1) to (6) are correct, we can conclude: It was not an "invention" of the 8th or 9th century, but the teaching was there all along. The terminology and practice developed in both east and west, but that is the same with all Christian and Catholic doctrines (the Incarnation, the Trinity, the sacraments, the Papacy, the Marian doctrines all developed).

In addition, St. Augustine, who some (wrongly) claim held a "symbolical" view, while he too didn't use the word "transubstantiation" used very literal words of the Eucharist:

"That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS." (Sermons 227)

"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY." (Sermons 234:2)

"How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: 'THIS IS MY BODY.' FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS." (Psalms 33:1:10)

"...I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord's feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING." (Psalms 98:9)

Philip Schaff (History of the Christian Church) on St. Augustine:

"But, on the other hand, he calls the celebration of the communion -verissimum sacrificium- [a 'true sacrifice'] of the body of Christ. The church, he says, offers (immolat) to God the sacrifice of thanks in the body of Christ, from the days of the apostles through the sure succession of the bishops down to our time. But the church at the same time offers, with Christ, herself, as the body of Christ, to God. As all are one body, so also all are together the same sacrifice [De civit Dei 10:20 Latin given]." (Schaff, volume 3, page 507)

"The subject of the sacrifice is the body of Jesus Christ, which is as TRULY PRESENT on the altar of the church, as it once was on the altar of the cross, and which now offers itself to God through his priest. Hence the frequent language of the liturgies: 'Thou art he who offerest, and who art offered, O Christ, our God.' Augustine, however, connects with this, as we have already said, the true and important moral idea of the self-sacrifice of the whole redeemed church to God. The prayers of the liturgies do the same." (page 508)

"Even St. Augustine, with Tertullian, teaches plainly, as an OLD tradition, that the eucharistic sacrifice, the intercessions or -suffragia- and alms, of the living are of benefit to the departed believers, so that the Lord deals more mercifully with them than their sins deserve [Serm 172:2 Latin given]. His noble mother, Monica, when dying, told him he might bury her body where he pleased, and should give himself no concern for it, only she begged of him that he would remember her SOUL at the altar of the Lord [Confess 1:9:27 Latin given]. (page 510)

J.N.D. Kelly on St. Augustine:

'This sacrifice,' he remarks [De civ dei 17:20:2], 'succeeded all those sacrifices of the Old Testament, which were slaughtered in anticipation of what was to come....For instead of all those sacrifices and oblations His BODY IS OFFERED, and is DISTRIBUTED to the participants.'

"The Christian supper presupposes the death on the cross [Serm 112:1]. The self-same Christ Who was slain there is in a real sense slaughtered daily [sacramentally in an unbloody manner] by the faithful, so that the sacrifice which was offered once for all in bloody form is sacramentally RENEWED upon our altars with the OBLATION of His BODY AND BLOOD [Ep 98:9; C. Faust 20:18; 20:21]. From this it is clear that, if the eucharistic sacrifice is essentially a 'similitude' or 'memorial' of Calvary, it includes MUCH MORE than that. In the first place, it involves a REAL, though sacramental, OFFERING of Christ's BODY AND BLOOD; He is Himself the priest, but also the OBLATION [De civ dei 10:20]. In the second place, however, along with this oblation of the Head, it involves the offering of His members, since the fruit of the sacrifice is, precisely, their union in His mystical body [cf. De civ dei 10:6]...." (Early Christian Doctrines, page 454-455)

Darwell Stone on St. Augustine and the west:

"There is like terminology in the West. A canon of the Council of Arles, held in 314 A.D., like the Council of Nicaea eleven years later in the East, incidentally contains the word 'OFFER' to describe the work of the presbyters which the deacons might not perform [Canon 15]. St. Optatus of Milevis uses the words 'SACRIFICE' and 'OFFER' in regard to the Eucharist [2:12]. St. Ambrose says that it is part of the work of the Christian ministry to 'OFFER SACRIFICE for the people'; that Christ 'is Himself on earth when the body of Christ is OFFERED'; and that the word of Christ 'consecrates the SACRIFICE which is OFFERED' [In Ps 38 Enar 25]. St. Augustine refers to the Eucharist as 'the SACRIFICE of our redemption,' 'the SACRIFICE of the Mediator,' 'the SACRIFICE of peace,' 'the SACRIFICE of love,' 'the SACRIFICE of the BODY and BLOOD of the Lord,' 'the SACRIFICE of the Church' [Conf 9:32; Enchir 110; In Ps 21 Enar 2:28; In Ps 33 Enar 1:5; De civ Dei 10:20]. St. Leo speaks of 'the OFFERING of the SACRIFICE' as an act of Christian worship [Serm 26:1; 91:3]."

So the Catholic defense is not a scientific one, it is a biblical and historical one. John 6:51ff and "This is My Body" are our main texts.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num8.htm

As I said, it is no more "batshit" to believe in the Incarnation of Christ (God becoming man) than the "incarnation" of the Eucharist. If Christ is God as all Catholics and Christians believe, and Christ said "This is My Body" in the context of the Eucharist and Liturgy, and the entire history of Christianity passed on this belief and believed it true, it only makes sense today for the Church to continue to believe that. Again it is a mystery (Greek -mysterion- or Latin -sacramentum-). The "outward signs" (or "evidence") for this divinity/deity of Christ belief are the miracles of Christ (especially his Resurrection), and the "Eucharistic miracles" (you can search for those online, also rebuttals by skeptic Joe Nickell).

And do I need to remind you that P.Z. Myers would be absolutely intellectually annihilated by William Lane Craig in debate? OK, maybe just my opinion (but check my audio page). Richard Dawkins has refused to debate Craig. Too bad.

Bless You, not Fuck You!

Phil P

I worked for a Catholic organization.
My father is on the Board of Directors of a Catholic organization.

You know what? None of them would claim the a cracker is God amongst themselves. Not one of them.
They might publicly in an event like this, but that's just for show and solidarity.

They know its bullshit. They just get off on martyrdom.

"As I said, it is no more "batshit" to believe in the Incarnation of Christ (God becoming man) than the "incarnation" of the Eucharist."

This is indeed true. They are both equally batshit.

"If I stomp on a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that someone gave me under the pretenses I was going to eat it - all to prove my contempt for the the PB&J, it's NOT a hate crime no matter how loudly some sandwich worshipper wails that it is."

This is not true. If you simply held contempt for the PB&J sandwich, you would likely refuse it. You most definitely would not go out of your way to obtain it. Nobody is walking around the streets forcing the Eucharist on Atheists. The hatred exists when an Atheist goes out of their way to go into a Catholic church to obtain the Eucharist for the sole purpose of descrating it. Nobody is forcing you into a Catholic church. Your intentions would be quite clear in this specific case. Why wouldn't you just keep walking right past the Catholic church and not even go inside?

If Professor Myers wants to criticize anyone who makes death threats, then I'm right there with him. What has Donohue and others up in arms is not criticism of death threats but his call to have other Atheists enter Catholic churches for one purpose and one purpose only. Do not cloud the issue.

I like how these people are going to "pray" for you. Like it's a threat in and of itself.

#835 - Capital Dan - See post above to sinmantyx. It's was no business of anyone to ask me if my family, friends and co-workers hate me. Why are you so angry? Did I hit a raw nerve? So according to you, it's OK for people to be
anti-Catholic bigots, Catholic bashers, Catholic haters and to say anything you want even about my family, but it isn't OK for me to say that you are a mere little boy, wearing his emotions on his sleeve while his brain lies asleep.

I said nothing about your family, Jenn. You're getting a little delusional. If you're going to accuse me of things, please try to make sure they're actually true. You'll look less like an idiot then.

If by seeing Catholicism as nothing more than a bunch of people suckered into believing a fairy tale qualifies as bigotry, hatred, or bashing, then I guess I'm guilty, Jenn.

Other than that, no. You didn't hit a nerve. I know you wanted to, and I hope it doesn't upset you that you missed. But, I'm not angry in the least. In fact, I don't think my response to your prattle expressed any anger whatsoever. You don't seem capable of reading with any level of comprehension.

Besides, it's kind of hard being angry at you when I'm laughing at pretty much everything you say. For you, it's just the same pleading for attention by spouting out the same insults. You come here, you annoy, you insult, and you try very hard to be a tedious chore just so someone will engage you in your sad, little game.

Do Catholics ever have an original thought? Do they ever think for themselves?

Sure. Just the overly serious ones don't. For them, the Pope is the authority, he is Christ returned to lead us all. Which, if I'm following correctly, means the Pope is a bit of unleavened bread with all the answers.

And don't even raise the topics of purgatory or limbo or why God considered such separations necessary (but only for Catholics). And don't go looking in the dictionary for what 'catholic' means, because the first definition might shock you:

1.broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.

But the dictionary can't be trusted because God didn't write it. A wafer did.

Geezus. Thanks for boring us to tears. It's still a fuckin cracker.

"Do not cloud the issue."

Ok, I won't cloud the issue. I'm not planning to do this, but if I walk into a Catholic church to take communion and pocket the wafer, take it home, stick it in a bottle of piss and post pics on the net, it is NOT a hate crime.

In the US at least, it would never and could never be prosecuted as a hate crime. And if you honestly think its a hate crime, you are startlingly stupid.

I believe her joke was a take on "they need to get laid."

You missed a post earlier in the thread where someone observed that "I'll pray for you" in those letters meant about the same thing as "fuck you". For a brief, merry time "pray" meant "fuck" in this thread.

Yes, that's right - it was a double play. I demand full credit, and will accept nothing less.

Phil @ #880
"As I said, it is no more "batshit" to believe in the Incarnation of Christ (God becoming man) than the "incarnation" of the Eucharist."

All that text, and I think you missed out on the request to "[make] any support for factual truth of transubstantiation" (note "factual truth").

If this "truth" is so apparent, why don't all christians believe it? Hell, not even all *catholics* believe it, as evidenced in statements in these threads and even on the catholic forum.

What has Donohue and others up in arms is not criticism of death threats but his call to have other Atheists enter Catholic churches for one purpose and one purpose only.

Exactly. EXACTLY.
What has them up in arms is NOT the death threats to a kid, and is threats to purloin a biscuit.

NOT up in arms over death threats. Up in arms over threats to a cracker.

How wonderfully moral of them. How wonderfully, lovingly moral of them.

How wonderful of you to demand that we clarify that Catholics are NOT up in arms over death threats to a kid, that that's not important to them, threats to desecrate a wafer are more important.

I happily clarify that point.

I don't think you can harm the wafer by sticking it in urine, as its final destination is a turd anyhow.

Catholics claim that the consecrated cracker is Jesus.

Catholics claim that Jesus is god.

Catholics claim that this is the same god as the god of Abraham and Isaac.

Catholics believe in the veracity of the Bible, which documents numerous instances of racially motivated genocide perpetrated by this god.

So by Catholic belief, the cracker is guilty of crimes against humanity -- the Church is harboring a known criminal.

We must extradite the cracker and hold it responsible for its crimes!

(I'm sure when the time comes, it will be more than happy to plead the fifth....)

Craig @ #888
"..stick it in a bottle of piss and post pics on the net, it is NOT a hate crime"

Indeed. Why not call it *art*, like Piss Christ?

"If you simply held contempt for the PB&J sandwich, you would likely refuse it. You most definitely would not go out of your way to obtain it."

You don't know me very well. If I hate a sandwich, man do I hate a sandwich.

If Professor Myers wants to criticize anyone who makes death threats, then I'm right there with him.

No one gives flying fuck where you are, you pompous piece of concern troll shit. (Although the schadenfreude from you pukes being so damned concerned is a pleasant amusement.)

By truth machine, OM (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Craig @ #888
"..stick it in a bottle of piss and post pics on the net, it is NOT a hate crime"

Indeed. Why not call it *art*, like Piss Christ?

I'm just wondering... when God is impregnating a virgin, is there a risk of crumbs in the bed?

Hi, Etha! Welcome back!

"I like how these people are going to "pray" for you. Like it's a threat in and of itself."

Jennie, if you like that, please read comments #144 and #151. You'll learn a valuable new swear word. :)

PhilVaz @ #880:

Please Phil, link it next time. Most of the people here who doubt transubstantiation don't believe even the foundation of your claims, that a god exists and that Jesus exists to be magically integrated with a wafer. Why should any of us atheists take biblical passages as evidence of transubstantiation? Or the beliefs of St. Augstine, etc. which are based on them? Until the core issue of belief in a god is established, your 1500+ word post is just as much literary masturbation.

I'll agree with you about how equivalently 'batshit' the propositions you compare are, it's just that I think they're both completely out of touch with reality. The burden of testable proof lies with you, at least if you're trying to convince me, but please link any extra lengthly material next time. The forum allows at least 2-3 links before posts get sent to the moderation queue, more if they're links to scienceblogs.com (AFAIK).

PhilVaz:

That's right, because debate is the proper format to contest intellectual acumen.

And PZ would wipe the floor with WLC where biology is concerned. Disciplines are like that.

I actually feel sorry for you that WLC is one of the best that you have. He presented the best philosophical arguments in favor of God on the Christianity Today website, I believe. Suffice to say, you're struggling.

Some of them arguments have been reworked and restated several times now, and they weren't convincing the first time. Not to sound to cocky, of course, and there are some genuinely interesting new ideas.

#876 Hi Etha!

Phil - Thanks for the theology lesson. I did skim it. I am going to bed soon. I appreciate you took the time and effort to write your comment.

However, since I'm finally leaving this debate, I could resist a light jab:

Wasn't St. Augustine the sex-addict that transferred his own personal problems on the world by imposed the concept of "original sin" on Catholics and other Christians - asserting that the most fundamental, healthy, (and dare I say) sacred act human beings can engage in is sinful and of the devil?

...and didn't Aquinas disagree with the asserting that life began at conception and instead believe that a early term fetuses had the souls of vegetables?

I'm sure the person you are specifically answering and some others may find the opinions of these men interesting and relevant, but I do not see them (or the Catholic church for that matter) an authority nor do I see the holy books of a religion an authority.

Simply put there are two cases here:
1) the host is the actually body of Christ and is sacred
2) it is simply symbolic

In case 1), I would refuse to worship a deity that would place impractical physical objects in such high regard. In case 2), I would find the ritual worth while, but the materials of that ritual worth only what I could sell them for.

Is it ironic that the atheists are generally arguing against materialism?

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

What has them up in arms is NOT the death threats to a kid, and is threats to purloin a biscuit.

Well, when you put it like that, it just sounds stupid.

Isn't their an Amendment that gives us the right to bear crackers?

That's why the compulsion to regulate our ownership of crackers seems suspect. Why do agnostics and atheists get denied this right? After all, crackers don't kill people. They feed them.

Which explaines why hordes of atheists have been tearing down church doors and stealing the wafers that were secretly blessed pre-Mass and sending them to PZ Myers.

Yep, that's the threat he posed. And it was impossible for anyone to see he wasn't serious.

Arrest that man, this I know, because my Bible tells me so.

I'm gonna trick him, though. I'm buying some unblessed ones. Then all the Catholics will mock him because it'll be so-o-o-o obvious that they're not the real stolen ones the atheist hordes kidnapped for his devious plans.

MWa-HA-HAAA, that'll show 'im.

"(I'm sure when the time comes, it will be more than happy to plead the fifth....)"

If we send him to Guantanimo, he'll crumble for sure.

Jim, please show us where PZ specifically "call(s) to have other Atheists enter Catholic churches for one purpose and one purpose only?"

You're just making stuff up, and you know it. That is what you have derived from his blog post, but that is not what it says. Please refrain from making that argument.

I have heard stories about some communion first timers vomiting thinking about eating flesh. Special pans to prevent Eucharist crumbs from falling on the floor and *horrors* rats eating them.

Does digestion neutralize the Eucharist's consecration or does one's poo need to be deposited in a special urn for disposal by a special priest class?

The people who emailed you are clearly not christians. They are just the deranged pretending to be christians. You can't just call yourself a christian and it magically happens, you have to act like a christian ALL the time.

Anybody who acts like this while claiming to be a christian is a liar, and should be told that they are.

SC (about "I will pray for you" meaning "Fuck you"):

Yes, that's right - it was a double play. I demand full credit, and will accept nothing less.

Gladly. All hail SC!

Etha Williams, OM

We must extradite the cracker and hold it responsible for its crimes!
(I'm sure when the time comes, it will be more than happy to plead the fifth....)

Welcome back! The time away hasn't made you any less sharp, I see.

Jim @ #883:

What has Donohue and others up in arms is not criticism of death threats but his call to have other Atheists enter Catholic churches for one purpose and one purpose only. Do not cloud the issue.

How about you don't cloud the issue, dumbass. PZ never called for atheists to go inside of Catholic churches for any reason. See my post at #852. All he asked was "Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?"

Damian, Jim is oddly using the same lie that Rob has been using.

What a piece of work is this man - so infinite in sockpuppets, so lacking in reason.

Kevin I had a similar experience in a confessional. I told the priest that I had masturbated. His voice got weird and he started asking me what technique I used (probably 'cause he didn't know how to, I thought) and he asked me what I was thinking about when I did it. It probably was after watching an episode of Wild Wild West where Robert Conrad was half-naked for most of the episode, but, then I was jerking off at least once a day. That's when I got up and left. My father made me go to confession with my brother at least once a year but I learned to confess just little sins, like disobeying my parents or stealing candy, just to get done with it.
And Todd, Don't fuck with the Holy Oreo. I once knew a woman whose cousin's neighbor said bad things about the O and the next day he was found dead and there were chocolate crumbs all over his body.

Yes, Rey Fox! It seems I've been in the praying dark this whole time! Using everyday common curse words instead of the almighty swear!

"Special pans to prevent Eucharist crumbs from falling on the floor and *horrors* rats eating them.

Ok, now I DO hate Catholics. Rats are cool!

What the hell does their cookie god have against rats?!?!?

The people who emailed you are clearly not christians. They are just the deranged pretending to be christians. You can't just call yourself a christian and it magically happens, you have to act like a christian ALL the time.

Anybody who acts like this while claiming to be a christian is a liar, and should be told that they are.

An absurd "no true Scotsman" fallacy. These people are Christians according to the dictionary.

By truth machine, OM (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"Does digestion neutralize the Eucharist's consecration or does one's poo need to be deposited in a special urn for disposal by a special priest class?"

I think they put them on the same shelf as the maxi-pads containing fertilized eggs that failed to implant.

:P

With that, I say good night/morning.

By sinmantyx (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Just for the record. Athiests have the BEST sense of humor. You guys crack me up!

Cak @ #911: Anybody who acts like this while claiming to be a christian is a liar, and should be told that they are.

Oh, right, right. I remember from when I was a Christian that we were to not judge others, lest we be judged (and presumably found wanting) by the Lord.

So what special dispensation did you get to discriminate between your fellow Christians so that you could separate the sheep from the goats?

Maybe you can also tell whether I was a "true Christian" before I became an atheist. Make sure you show your work. No points for "you can't have been one or you wouldn't have become an atheist." Use those super magical powers of discrimination.

By speedwell (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Cak @ #911
"Anybody who acts like this while claiming to be a christian is a liar, and should be told that they are."

You mean "no true christian.." along the No True Scotsman fallacy?

If Professor Myers wants to criticize anyone who makes death threats, then I'm right there with him. What has Donohue and others up in arms is not criticism of death threats but his call to have other Atheists enter Catholic churches for one purpose and one purpose only.

Are they up in arms about the threats too? Or is it just the crackers. Seems to me like they should be more upset about the threats than the crackers.

Do not cloud the issue.

Oh okay thanks.

We should listen to the Catholics, we shouldn't criticize them.

After all, it's not like they've been been criticizing atheists. Every week. In church sermons. For thousands of years.

Well, it looks like you folks tied down the town so this old cowpoke is off to bunkybye land.

And if you succeed in stopping this cracker epidemic, be sure to hit some Protestant sanctuaries because they still transubstantiate fairly decent wine, which is more fun to desecrate with.

OH...YOUR...GOD!!!

Wow, okay, so I'm loving the peeps that are trying to explain the death threats away...too funny.

I don't know if someone already addressed this because I couldn't read all the comments, but Rob Sterling's attempt was the best!

//To everybody who thinks there's a death threat among
those messages - a death threat would be phrased in the
form of an imminent, first person warning. It wouldn't be
formed in an ambiguous, passive-voiced warning.//

First of all, the man's knowledge of death threat ettiquette is astounding. Secondly, its scary and crazy.
An "imminent, first person warning" would be, I suppose, "I'M going to kill you today." According to the Sterling's Death Threat Rules, no one said this. Therefore, no one has threatened PZ's life. All true. Back in the REAL WORLD where scary, crazy Catholics are pissed over threatening the safety of a CRACKER, people have been putting the not oft used form of second person death threats.

"YOU are really fucked now. (YOU, implied)Lock your doors
at night, and (YOU, implied) check under your car before
you turn the ignition key."

I guess there are loopholes in legality when threatening to "explode" someone.

This is fun...! ...and kinda sad...

If Professor Myers wants to criticize anyone who makes death threats, then I'm right there with him. What has Donohue and others up in arms is not criticism of death threats but his call to have other Atheists enter Catholic churches for one purpose and one purpose only.

Hey dude, how come "Donohue and others" aren't more worried about the kid than the crackers? Why is that?

Do not cloud the issue.

Oh okay. Thanks.

"You don't know me very well. If I hate a sandwich, man do I hate a sandwich."

That was exactly my point. Your actions are motivated by hate.

To Jim and all our new Catholic friends here at Pharyngula - I've some bad news for you. You've all been had. Sold lemons. Played for suckers.

PZ's entire goal for the first post, all those thousands of comment ago, was to highlight the batshit loonery - firstly, of those who believe that there's anything sacred about a cracker no matter how many times a priest waves his magic wand over it; and, secondly, for threatening a guy for not treating it in accordance with the beliefs.

This caused Donohue & co. to go berserk. PZ saw an opportunity to get his message out to a much wider audience than the Pharyngulites - since he knew the bottom-feeding media would be on this in no time at all - so he stirred the pot to see what happened.

Now, not only has he let the Catholics show how fucking crazy the eucharist concept is, but he's set them up to show how vile they can be when threatened - ironic considering that they're meant to be adherents of a religion that preaches love, tolerance and - above all else - forgiveness.

Many of you have exposed yourselves - here, on other blogs, and in the media - for the violent, hate-filled, superstitious, nonsensical-ooga-booga-believing fools that you are.

Thanks for playing. You've been great.

By Wowbagger (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

If Professor Myers wants to criticize anyone who makes death threats, then I'm right there with him. What has Donohue and others up in arms is not criticism of death threats but his call to have other Atheists enter Catholic churches for one purpose and one purpose only.

Hey sparky, hows come "Donohue and others" are more worried about the crackers than they are worried about anything else in whole entire damn planet?

Do not cloud the issue.

Oh, okey dokey. Thank you.

Post #930:

Wowbagger!!! shhh!! Don't tell them that! They might learn something!

Wafer Meatloaf

* 1 egg
* 1/3 cup chili sauce
* 1/3 cup slim milk
* 1/2 teaspoon worcestershire sauce
* 2 tablespoons minced onions
* 2 tablespoons chopped bell peppers
* 1 clove of garlic
* 1 lb ground beef (lean)
* 1 dash salt and pepper, to taste
* 1 dash garlic powder
* 35 communion wafers (blessed or unblessed), broke apart

Mix ingredients together, bake in greased pan at 375 degrees for one hour. Serve a with red wine.

"You don't know me very well. If I hate a sandwich, man do I hate a sandwich."

Jim: That was exactly my point. Your actions are motivated by hate.

This shall be called 'sandwichogyny'. I'll cover hate in my next decree.

So it goes.

I love meatloaf! I bet it's divine made with eucharists!!

"That was exactly my point. Your actions are motivated by hate."

No, your point was that if I did something mean to an inanimate object that someone cherished and gave to me, that that would be a hate crime.

Whether my mean actions were motivated by hate or not, it would NOT be a hate crime.

An action becomes a hate crime when something that is a crime is motivated by hate.

It's NOT a hate crime when something that ISN'T a crime is motivated by hate.

But you already know that. You're just playing the fool because you can't admit you're wrong.

If I hate the Simpsons and change the channel, that's nto a hate crime. If I hate Jews and wipe my ass with the Torah, that's not a hate crime. If I hate Catholics and punch one in the nose or vandalize a church, that may be a hate crime.

Jennie wrote:

I love meatloaf!

You took the words right outta my mouth...

By Wowbagger (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"And if you succeed in stopping this cracker epidemic, be sure to hit some Protestant sanctuaries because they still transubstantiate fairly decent wine, which is more fun to desecrate with."

I need to find some rastafarians and desecrate some of thier stuff.

What I wrote:
"What has Donohue and others up in arms is not criticism of death threats but his call to have other Atheists enter Catholic churches for one purpose and one purpose only."

What you wrote:
"Exactly. EXACTLY.
What has them up in arms is NOT the death threats to a kid, and is threats to purloin a biscuit."

This does not make logical sense. Why would they be in up arms over something they see eye-to-eye on? If two people agree that death threats are wrong, then why would they argue with each other about it? I don't see how your comment follows from mine.

Jim, you are far more dense than I imagined. He's curious as to why Donohue is not making a stand against those threatening the kid.

"If two people agree that death threats are wrong, then why would they argue with each other about it? I don't see how your comment follows from mine."

I have seen no national press releases from Donohue condemning the death threats to the kid. I have seen no demands from them that those threatening the kids graduation from school be fired.

I have seen no outrage from Catholics over the treatment of this kid. Only outrage of Catholics TOWARDS the kid.

I see no calls from Donohue or other Catholics for protection of this kid. There were, however, apparently additional security sent to the kids school - to protect the wafers.

ALL evidence is that Donohue and his ilk at best don't give a damn about the kid, and at worst are against him.

All evidence is that Donohue and his ilk care far, far more for their wafers than for actual people getting threats.

All evidence is that Donohue and his ilk are in fact BEHIND threats to people, and consider threats to people to be a fair response to threats to a cookie.

So no, they do NOT see eye to eye on it.

Goddamn.

Fuck Catholics.
Fuck Christians.
Fuck all religious people.

I am so sick of this shit.

This does not make logical sense.

How would an idiot like you know?

Why would they be in up arms over something they see eye-to-eye on?

Yeah, right, why would two people both, say, horrified by genocide be up in arms over it?

If two people agree that death threats are wrong, then why would they argue with each other about it?

"up in arms" doesn't mean "arguing", you fucking git.

By truth machine, OM (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

All evidence is that Donohue and his ilk care far, far more for their wafers than for actual people getting threats.

Of coarse they are more worried about the wafers. The wafers are the creator of the universe. And the wafers do not like being treated with disrespect, nor do the wafers like it when people stand idly by and allow them be disrespected by others.

The wafers are the most imporatant thing in the universe. Second to none!

"What is "reality" really? Does it only exist while YOU are alive on this earth? What will reality when the human race does not exist anymore? Will there be any reality then? My question is rhetorical. The reality then will be spiritual. It is time you expand your human closed mind and read up on the topic...consider the Bible as a starting point."

Man, it's like someone took an intro philosophy course.

And then failed in every aspect.

To everybody who thinks there's a death threat among those messages - a death threat would be phrased in the form of an imminent, first person warning. It wouldn't be formed in an ambiguous, passive-voiced warning.

Unshaven man in trench coat: "You better watch your step, Sterling! You've pissed off the wrong people this time, see? Scumbags like you have...accidents. Accidents which leave you at the bottom of the river with a hole in your skull and weights tied to your feet. By the way, I happen to have a pair of fifty-pound weights and some rope in the trunk of my car. And a .45 in the glove compartment."

Rob Sterling: "What a friendly man!"

By Anton Mates (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"You don't know me very well. If I hate a sandwich, man do I hate a sandwich."

That was exactly my point. Your actions are motivated by hate.

You might as well have "bad faith" tattooed on your forehead.

By truth machine, OM (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

cak #911: "The people who emailed you are clearly not christians. They are just the deranged pretending to be christians. You can't just call yourself a christian and it magically happens, you have to act like a christian ALL the time."

Actually to be a Catholic a person has to be deranged. Only an idiot could believe Jesus gets inserted into a wafer when a priest says some magic words.

The death threats are not the only problem. Catholic shitheads are trying to get a student expelled and a professor fired because of a worthless tasteless piece of bread. It's very obvious Catholics are world-class assholes and batshit crazy.

I'm going to rub this cracker incident into the faces of Catholics for the next several years. Catholics must never be allowed to forget they're no better than Muslim terrorists.

Did Jim go to sleep? Or did Craig finally put him in his place?

I stole a cracker and named it Mohammed.

I am so dead :(

The cracker argument was one of the big aspects of the reformation, protestants rejected the idea that the bread actually becomes the body of Christ. A source of big theological differences between those various flavors of Jesus. Buckets-O-Blood spilled all over the place because of it.

The Cracker has a history... The bizarre idea is being scrutinized once again.

Notice how a priest is careful to make sure that all the crumbs are handled at the end of a mass. He doesn't want to get some Jesus on the floor!

Can you see how they react in almost a similar manner as the Muslim people did for the Danish Cartoon of Muhammad? Death threats? Hmm... No violence yet... but never rule it out, even with Catholics. It's higly likely that those types of reactions are innate in every religion if someone hits the right chord. A pictoral of Muhammad for Islam, the Cracker for the Catholic.

I'm fairly certain, that if Jesus were to come to earth "again" as you Christians believe, he'd avoid the whole lot of you. You people have him hanging from a cross and pretend to eat him and drink his blood.

Ahhhh, it's Christians lying for Jesus, again....

It reminds me why I am so lucky to have never believed in the first place. Yep, I was born an atheist, have remained one my entire life and will die secure in the knowledge that that there is no god or gods.

I guess, though, that it's not fair that I have to be honest and moral, that I must love my fellow man as I would love myself and that I must do those things without the promise or expectation of reward. I do suppose it's unfair that I have to be good because I wish to be, and not because I'm afraid of what's going to happen to me after I die. Yes, I suppose in your eyes that makes me somehow less worthy than you, because I don't need to be threatened or rewarded to act like a decent human being, if only because you have not yet let go of your jealousy and your hate.

Yeah, I guess that makes me scum of the earth, eh, Christian commenters? That I would have the gall to expect that you would try to be good people because it's the right thing to do must just burn your biscuits something fierce.

That anyone would ask you to speak out against someone making death threats or trying to ruin someone's life is just too much to ask of you, isn't it?

That I, a lowly atheist who doesn't drink, do drugs, steal, lie, cheat or commit or condone acts of violence would request that you actually follow the tenets of your own faith, instead of merely paying them lip service must make you feel very guilty.

...then again, I guess you only want to focus on the things you can use to make yourselves feel better about your sorry moral state. So here's something for you to focus on:

I am a better Christian than you are, and I don't even believe in God.

There, I said it. I have followed the teachings of the Christian faith with more dedication than you have. I have taken the lessons of Christ to heart, despite the fact that I do not think he was a god made flesh. I have been able to be a good person, living a good life of love and peace, without once feeling guilty about being human.

Perhaps *that's* the part that really pisses "Christians" off, that I get all the joy and all the love, with none of that horrible guilt.

Maybe, just maybe you can consult with a priest or pastor who can help you to see all the ways you have failed in your quest for heaven, and maybe, just maybe you can someday realize how little effort it takes to be Christlike. It's really not hard, it only requires that you open yourself to love, hope and forgiveness.

By Ananamuss (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

LOL! There are more people posting emails against Myers than there are active people on this blog.

Just goes to show you how small and in the minority that the Atheists are on here. It also shows how shallow they are as well.

It's a good thing that I can follow science without having to follow atheism and its backwards world view.

"Tolerance is for everyone except the people that I disagree with." - Probably some anonymous Atheist.

Sorry for a little trolling but to be honest I just can't take most of you seriously and I don't think the real world can either.

By KennyisNOTdead (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

Very strange. In my eyes, the real violence, intolerance and hystery was in the death threats addressed to the poor students. Not PZ's joke/provocation. How can those people not see it? Do their brains badly need glasses?

By Christophe Thill (not verified) on 11 Jul 2008 #permalink

"An action becomes a hate crime when something that is a crime is motivated by hate."

Did I even use the word crime? I believe I only ever mentioned that your actions would be motivated by hate. Here's what I wrote:

"Sorry, but your beliefs about the Eucharist don't really matter here. You know what it means to Catholics so your intention is very clear. It's an act of hatred. End of story. There is no getting around that. This is not the way that educated adults behave in a civilized society."

I hadn't even approached the topic of whether or not it's a crime. I simply expect more from educated adults for starters. But people don't even seem capable of having a civilized conversation, much less act like a decent human being.

And as Wowbagger points out, this is hatred towards individuals, not the Eucharist itself.

"Now, not only has he let the Catholics show how fucking crazy the eucharist concept is, but he's set them up to show how vile they can be when threatened - ironic considering that they're meant to be adherents of a religion that preaches love, tolerance and - above all else - forgiveness."

It's hatred towards Catholics. It's a "threat". Explain to me how this in any way, shape, or form represents the actions of intelligent human beings. Why is this necessary? This does absolutely nothing to build up or advance our society. Hatred breeds hatred. It tears our society down. I've read a lot of claims about Catholics and Christians in general being ignorant or uneducated. But you'd be hard pressed to find any intelligent comments anywhere here. There's a lot of name calling and a lot of intellectual dishonesty.

..and you, Jim, are a shining example of that dishonesty. That you equate threatening a cracker with threatening the life of two human beings shows just how far you are from reasonable, rational or human.

By Ananamuss (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

If you never said hate crime, then I was confusing you with someone else.

But you are wrong. Showing how crazy the religion is is NOT hatred toward Catholics. Its love of reality, and condemnation of irrationally-based mistreatment of others.

I know many Catholics, I worked for a Catholic organization. My father is on the Board of Directors of a Catholic organization. He is an atheist, and considers their beliefs crazy, and they pretty much know this, but they are all his friends.

I know and like some of them. I don't hate them, I don't hate them for being Catholic, I don't hate the Catholic religion or any other religion.

But I can see that fact that the beliefs of the Catholic religion (and all others) and flat-out insane. Crazy. Wildly delusional. And in general, damaging to society.

And I say so whenever my opinion is called for. And when that irrational belief system threatens real people, or their jobs, or the educational system, or our rights and freedoms, I call it out in no uncertain terms. I call it for what it is in clear unmistakable language.
I MOCK and ridicule preposterous, idiotic and damaging ideas.

And not one ounce of it is motivated by hatred. My mother is mildly religious, I love her, and she knows my beliefs, and I can state them freely to her, and she knows I love her.

All of my friends, everyone I know - whether religious or not, know what I think of religion, and I pull no punches. I say its senseless, crazy, delusional, and damaging.

And I don't hate any of them, they don't hate me I suspect, and I don't hate a single person on this planet.

If you are unable to see that VALID criticism of ideas is not hatred, STRIDENT criticism of damaging ideas is not hatred, then that is a failure in your mind. You are lacking something. And that's sad, but there's nothing I personally can do about it, and I'm not going to change my appropriate behavior of subjecting all ideas to scrutiny and criticizing the silly and damaging ones.

Ok, end of thread.
Its all Kenny. Banned repeatedly, dishonestly posts under dozens of names/ID.
A mentally ill person, makes no sense to engage him. He needs serious help.

We need another Inquisition to root out idiots like you (and anyway, the Church only excommunicated heretics and witches, then handed them over to the state for punishment. We never executed them directly). (My emphasis.)

So that's alright then.

PZ, considering the results of the study sponsored by the Templeton Foundation - that knowing you are being prayed for is a significant health risk - I wonder if all the promises to pray for you should also be considered death threats, in addition to the more explicit ones!

By Nick Gotts (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

Sorry for a little trolling but to be honest I just can't take most of you seriously and I don't think the real world can either.

Six billion people. A Catholic minority. I gave you free breeding privileges. How'd you get outnumbered?

Crackers? You're kidding, right?

Geegoshwilly, you mean you gave up weegy-weegy for Wheat Thins?!? Because of the erectile dysfunction draq queen in that preposterous hat?

That does it. The next universe can forget about free will. If you don't use it, you lose it.

I just hope you guys don't get sick of all the eggrolls and sticky rice.

Stick that in your 'real' world; us immortals hardly take limpdicks seriously when you can't get it up for the best gifts you're given.

Hey Rob Sterling speaking as someone, who along with his coworkers, has been advised in the past to check under our cars in the mornings, I can tell you it is no fun to tell your young kids to wait in the rain while you check under your car, while trying not to get rose thorns in your but. I understand the institute now runs a free minibus service to take workers to local transport hubs.

This was of course due to animal rights loonies (now sat on hard by her majesty's police and judiciary), rather than religious loonies. But does it matter who blows you up? you are still dead. Which makes that threat a death threat.

Besides, PZ didn't start this, he only commented on it. Donohue is the one who failed to turn the other cheek.

By Peter Ashby (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

Well, you were right when you said it was tiresome to read, PZ. That and incredibly annoying. I need to go and wash my brain clean with something.... I started watching Rome season 2 last night, I think I'll continue with that.

To keep things straight and accurate: it was stated in these comments that the RC priest must consume all not-distributed consecrated hosts at the conclusion of the Holy Mass. This is NOT altogether the case. A certain number of consecrated hosts are RESERVED. These are used for hospitalized patients, shut-ins, and so forth. Also, for the weekday liturgies during the Great Lent there are special "Presanctified" liturgies using reserved, pre-consecrated hosts.

As much as I disdain the thinly veiled (or actual, I haven't rad all of the emails or comments here) death threats, nobody's been shot and no embassies have been torched. Nor do I expect it to happen. Even if psychologically civilization is only a thin finish on our behavior, it is enough for most people to not succumb to a violent mob mentality.
However juvenile 'Christnapping' a cracker may be, personally attacking someone who does it is borderline sociopathic behavior. As is attributing personhood and magical transformation to such an object, including semantic trickery to explain away the magical and formative elements. And that is what PZ discussed and rightfully ridiculed.
It is as obvious as psychologically explainable that people, in this case Catholics, have a strong need to preserve a realm of magical and esoteric thinking and deny the existence of a world that daily confronts them with an often harsh physical reality of natural, unjust and indifferent causes and effects. Our society has accepted people's right to their personal realm of denial, and we have institutions for those people whose delusions overflow. However this right ends where someone else's right to refuse acceptance of collective suspension of disbelief begins. If your state of mind cannot cope with ridicule or the confrontation with reason, it is you that needs to analyze this potentially dangerous mindset, and its not others' or society's role to provide a protected wildthought reserve for you.

By black wolf (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

"Jim, you are far more dense than I imagined. He's curious as to why Donohue is not making a stand against those threatening the kid."

Well, first, what does that have to do with what I wrote? What was all the "EXACTLY" about? There was no "EXACTLY" about anything I wrote.

Second, my guess would be that only Webster seems to be aware of the alleged threats. I've been looking, but can't seem to find anything. As far as I'm aware, death threats are taken very seriously and there would be criminal charges. Who is it that Donohue should be taking a stand against? I've seen allegations of death threats, but no evidence. If there is evidence, can you send me a link or something? I'd be interested in providing that to Donohue to see if he responds to it or just doesn't care. I really don't know that much about him.

I feeling sick reading this mails. Forced by a nun, who was my teacher, who tied my left hand to force me to write with my right hand and so singled me out from the first day on as a sort of dirty freak who isn't behaving normal like the rest of those nice catholic children I can not feel any sympahty for there position to force their weird ideas of morals on the rest of us.

By Marc Geerlings (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

Xeno: "All that text, and I think you missed out on the request to "[make] any support for factual truth of transubstantiation" (note "factual truth"). If this "truth" is so apparent, why don't all christians believe it?"

That's a good question and a book like Darwell Stone's two-volume A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist (especially volume 2 which covers the Protestant Reformation) would answer that question. Also a book like Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Reformation by Francis Clark, S.J. would answer it. They show in detail why some (not all) Protestants abandoned the literal belief in the 16th century. Lutherans had almost identical beliefs as Catholics, and we can see that in Lutheran theologian's Martin Chemnitz's 16th century critique of the Council of Trent.

However, if my Facts (1) to (7) on the Eucharist above are indeed Facts, then every Christian should believe the Catholic Eucharist (and every Christian should be Catholic as well). Catholics who do not believe it are either (A) ignorant of their own Church's teaching on the Eucharist, or (B) deliberately rejecting their Church's teaching and therefore being disobedient to their Church's authority.

The historical claim I was answering is "transubstantiation wasn't believed or was invented in the 8th or 9th century." I have successfully answered that quite thoroughly. Jesus taught it, the Bible teaches it, all the Fathers, Saints, and Doctors of the Church taught it for 1000 years. That should be enough for every Christian.

For some Christians (those independent kind, or those like John Shelby Spong) it is not enough, and for atheists it is not since they need scientific or evidential support since "it looks like bread, tastes like bread, smells like bread, therefore it is bread." Your scientific support (or at least something science cannot explain) would be the "Eucharistic miracles" (disputed by skeptics like Joe Nickell), although I have not looked deeply into those. For me, the consistent teaching of the Church down through the ages is enough. I already believe in God and Christ which helps.

pcarini: "Please Phil, link it next time. Most of the people here who doubt transubstantiation don't believe even the foundation of your claims, that a god exists and that Jesus exists to be magically integrated with a wafer. Why should any of us atheists take biblical passages as evidence of transubstantiation?"

I tried to link, but was moderated. So now I copy/paste the historical evidence. The claim I was answering was "transubstantiation was invented" later. I thoroughly answered that. Now of course I am assuming:

(A) God exists (a good book is Swinburne's The Existence of God or Craig's Reasonable Faith).
(B) Jesus of Nazareth existed, and claimed to be God or at least the promised "Messiah."
(C) Jesus performed miracles and (especially) rose from the dead, therefore proved to be God (one good book is Craig's short one The Son Rises).
(D) Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church to teach His truth through the apostles and their successors, i.e. St. Peter in the seat or authority of the Papacy as Bishop of Rome, the bishops throughout the world as their general successors, etc. (a book would be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic: The Early Church was the Catholic Church by Whitehead)

Atheists get stuck on (A). Deists get stuck on (C). Protestants and non-Catholic Christians get stuck on (D). All professional historians acknowledge (B) so that is not a problem. The disputes are with (A), (C), and (D). Maybe I'll get to those later, but I'm sure many Christian and/or Catholic apologists have tried in here.

Any of you atheist dumbshits (sorry couldn't resist, this blog changes one's vocabulary) read Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft / Ronald Tacelli ? Here is chapter 8 on the Resurrection summarized:

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num9.htm

Damian: "That's right, because debate is the proper format to contest intellectual acumen. And PZ would wipe the floor with WLC where biology is concerned. Disciplines are like that."

William Lane Craig doesn't write against evolution or biology or science, but he does have a chapter on "Naturalism and Intelligent Design" in the 2007 book by Dembski/Ruse so perhaps they could debate that. P.Z. Myers often ridicules the Christian and/or Catholic faith, something he only does on his blog and would never do in person since he is too polite, so how about Willam Lane Craig and P.Z. politely debate the following:

RESOLVED: "God is a delusion"

Of course in this debate, P.Z. would have the burden of proof since the affirmative in a debate normally does. I would love to see this. Craig would wipe the floor, P.Z. would have to clean up.

Phil P

Willam Lane Craig and P.Z. politely debate the following:

I see no point in a debate. I seen (and read) debates in which Craig was involved. It is not worth having a scientific rationalist try to engage with someone who bases premises on "what seems obvious to me". That is not the way reason works.

I don't think any of these people know who PZ is. They accuse him of attacking only Catholics, or only Christians, and dare him to taunt Mulims. I think if PZ had enough of the wood claimed to be the original cross, he would start a fire with it to burn the supposed original text of the Koran, and then use the resulting ashes to write "Hindus Suck!" on all the cows in India. Or rather, I would. I honestly don't know what PZ would do... Okay, meaningless rant, but really, can anybody score me some cross wood? It would be found in a little goden box on a Catholic alter.

Some reflexions in 3 parts for your reading pleasure (?)...

1. "First amendment right", said Bill D. Let me think about this. So, saying "Kill him!" is protected free speech? Is that how US law works? Is there also a religious exemption for incitation to violence?

2. I think most people here have strong admiration for Charles Darwin. Old Charles is not a god of any kind, but a man of great scientific creativity, an example and inspiration or, in the words of SJ Gould, "an intellectual hero". Well, a Darwin-hater could distort Darwin's message; he could say Darwin became a Jehovah Witness on his death bed; he could even make photoshopped pictures of Darwin naked performing acts of pedo-necro-zoophilia (that is, having sex with dead baby animals). Many of us would find this sad. All of us would take it as a sign of severe stupidity. Non of us would call it a sacrilege of a desecration. So, sorry, there's definitely no symmetry between the religious fanatics us Pharyngula readers.

3. I think that PZ's littke "desecration challenge" is rather childish. Yes, it's true that grown men, including myself, and also university professors, can take pleasure in childish acts. The "Blasphemy Challenge" has been called childish: I think it is, but only partly. The non-childish part consists in stating your views. The childish one is the pure fun of enraging people. Something PZ often likes to do, and well, we need people like that (I'm certainly not one of those, and I sometimes regret it). Well, perhaps I'd like people to be enraged when put in front of their own fallacies and contradictions, not merely when prodded. It may be that they would be unable to spot the fallacy anyway. But isn't this a good way to explore? Does that make me a kind of "appeaser"?

By Christophe Thill (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

Jim,

"I've seen allegations of death threats, but no evidence."

Surely, you'd expect a kid who reportedly "just wants all this to go away" to launch an internet campaign chronicling said evidence of death threats, or even launching an official investigation?
END SARCASM

If you bothered to read the original article that PZ referenced, you'd find:
"Catholics worldwide became furious." and
"Webster just wants all of this to go away. Especially now that he feels his life is in danger."

That's pretty much what you'd find in an article of that length.

It is hardly surprising that Catholics think communism is the same thing as atheism, and that Stalin's motivation was a hatred of god. It is after all what the Catholic Church has taught over the years. The Catholic Church even voiced its approval when Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, seeing it as a battle between Christianity and Atheism. I tend to find Catholics remarkably ignorant of the relationship between their church and the right-wing dictators of the C20th. It was one that does any credit to the Catholic church.

By Matt Penfold (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

human beings are constitutively incapable of knowing anything whatsoever about the supernatural (including whether or not there is a god) - Theodore Shulman

Nonsense. We can't know that there is no god, but once some definite characteristics are ascribed, we can ask whether the existence of a god with those characteristics is compatible with observation. For example, we can be confident there is no omnipotent and omnibenevolent god - the hypthesis that there is, is clearly incompatible with the existence of suffering and evil.

By Nick Gotts (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

"I've seen allegations of death threats, but no evidence. If there is evidence, can you send me a link or something?"

Try looking on this very blog. You will find examples of the e-mails PZ has received. Then come back and admit you were wrong.

By Matt Penfold (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

Phil @ #970

Well, I guess I literally asked for that round of text bludgeoning.
"However, if my Facts (1) to (7) on the Eucharist above are indeed Facts, then every Christian should believe the Catholic Eucharist (and every Christian should be Catholic as well). Catholics who do not believe it are either (A) ignorant of their own Church's teaching on the Eucharist, or (B) deliberately rejecting their Church's teaching and therefore being disobedient to their Church's authority."

The way you state that is interesting, and suggests that you are wrong. For if you were right, and you had "facts", what would that say about all those christians and catholics that do NOT believe in this? Are they ignorant? Stupid? Or maybe they need some time in "re-education" groups?
Wait - I have it! They have not yet seen the correct truth, right?
What are your thoughts on this?
"I would love to see this. Craig would wipe the floor, P.Z. would have to clean up."

My dad can beat up your dad. My favourite musical group outrocks yours. The floor is lava.

"But you are wrong. Showing how crazy the religion is is NOT hatred toward Catholics. Its love of reality, and condemnation of irrationally-based mistreatment of others."

Define "showing". That is where the hate comes in. If it was having a rational conversation between two intelligent human beings, then I might agree. But I think the actions speak quite clearly.

"If you are unable to see that VALID criticism of ideas is not hatred, STRIDENT criticism of damaging ideas is not hatred, then that is a failure in your mind. You are lacking something."

I've got absolutely no problems with "VALID criticism". But the actions suggested, as has been agreed to above, are motivated by hate. Should I actually believe that if your mother was a devout Catholic rather than "mildly religious" that you'd still think it was a good idea to desecrate the Eucharist in front of her?

"Judge a man not by his friends, but by his enemies"
I forgot where I read that, or who said it, but looking at what sort of enemies you've made, PZ, you're some kind of Hero .

People believing a cracker to be God is...strange, but it's their right to believe it. PZ getting mad at those people for sending death threats to a kid, who apperantly, didn't share that belief and didn't treat the cracker that was given to him as if it were God "In the Flesh", is, well, that just shows he's a compassionate human being who respects that poor kids beliefs (or lack thereof).

Oh whatever, you can't argue with religious people anyway. Now excuse me, I have to go rescue my brothers (they go to a Christian school...)

Donovan @ #972

Cross wood?

That is pretty lame.

Now, what you want to do, is score some genuine holy foreskin. Yes, you see - being that Jesus was a jew, he was of course circumcised. While his mortal coil may have been nailed, dead and resurrected so that no part of his body was left in the mortal world - the Holy Prepuce remained!
..and you thought the magical cracker story was insane?
Oh, being that we're supposed to be all sensitive and stuff - does anyone actually believe in this? Because if someone does, I obviously can't call it on being a stupid & whacky belief, right?

Jim @ #979

"Define "showing". That is where the hate comes in. If it was having a rational conversation between two intelligent human beings, then I might agree. But I think the actions speak quite clearly."

Define "the actions".

Nick @ #976

"We can't know that there is no god, but once some definite characteristics are ascribed, we can ask whether the existence of a god with those characteristics is compatible with observation."

Fantastic. I'm stealing this.
It's bothered me to no end in the creationist/ID ramblings - the idea that we cannot say squat about there being or not being "a god" (as in undefined god), when what they're really proposing is a defined god, and often very precisely defined at that.
Enter the holy cracker controversy, and arguments to the effect of "no one is able to say if god isn't magically popping up inside certain bread".

"Try looking on this very blog. You will find examples of the e-mails PZ has received. Then come back and admit you were wrong."

Maybe it's because it's late, but the question was about Donohue not speaking out against death threats to Webster.

I only saw one comment that may or may not have been considered a death threat towards Professor Myers. I would hope he'd take it seriously and alert the authorities. Emails are easily traced.

But most of the comments in the emails he posted demonstrate that Catholics are passive, not a threat. Most claim that he goes after Catholics specifically because there is no threat of violence, unlike desecrating something sacred to Muslims (which I would be equally vocal about).

Phil Vaz,

why do you belittle your faith so much ?

What are you worried about ?

According to a revelation received by Paul, this is the instruction Jesus is supposed to have given to his disciples ;

"This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." Corinthians 11:24

It's quite clear isn't it ?
Transbustantiation is only supposed to be meant for the faithful, and consumption is to be done by the faithful, in remembrance of Christ. It looses complete meaning when it's done by a non believer, so why react ?

So, why do you corrupt the message of Jesus so much ? Why only focus on ritual and forget the message ? What are you worried about if a non believer takes a fracking cracker and destroys it, it's quite obvious that it has nothing to do with what we are supposed to believe, if at all the Bible is historical evidence, Christ himself was talking about, so what are you worried about ? Can you not see that when Catholics react to this, they belittle their own faith to such an extent to make it so ridiculous ?

Why can't you be a bit more intelligent than the average lot and simply not react, nothing stops you from practicing your faith and believing what you want, but no, it's the usual bad reflex of the religious folks, they always want others to obbey their rules, afterall, that's what they have been doing for centuries.

Don't you see that we know that it's the body of Christ for you the faithful ? But can't you understand that it's not the body of Christ for us, the non faithful ? And there is nothing in what Christ said or did that leads to the conclusion that it remains the body of Christ when a non faithful takes it. So what are you worried about ?

By negentropyeater (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

"I've got absolutely no problems with "VALID criticism". But the actions suggested, as has been agreed to above, are motivated by hate. Should I actually believe that if your mother was a devout Catholic rather than "mildly religious" that you'd still think it was a good idea to desecrate the Eucharist in front of her?"

Frankly, if I shell out the $4.99 to mail order it to my home via the internet it isn't anyone's business what I do with it, regardless of whether anyone thinks it's the flesh of Jesus or not. Nobody is protected from having their sensibilities offended by law, and having those sensibilities violated isn't justification to send out death threats, as is the case in this messed up, silly little story. The fact that it's all over a frickin' cracker is just the cherry on top.

If it really is so holy, I'm wondering why they're not all up in arms over it being available on the internet for $4.99 in the first place. I'm also wondering why they sell it in whole wheat and white versions when it ends up being human flesh before you eat it anyway. But hey, what do I know?

Maybe I'll order a box this weekend and eat the whole thing with a can of cheese whiz. I've had a taste of communion wafers before. You'd really think that Jesus would taste better.

...And damn, have you ever drunk his blood? What a booze hound!

There must have been a 24/7 party going on around that guy.

Back to seriousness though, if I do that, and I will if I feel like it, it doesn't mean that I hate Catholics. You have to have your head shoved pretty far up your own ass to think that it does. What it does mean is that I don't respect certain beliefs held by some Catholics. And I'm not required to. Don't like it? Tough shit.

By Buzz Buzz (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

I may be too late, but ...

El Herring @ #119

Regarding the properties of diluted Holy Water ...

I think it depends on which edition of Dungeons & Dragons you are using. Check out the 4th Edition for the latest ... I'm sticking with 3.5.

;)

Buzz Buzz
"If it really is so holy, I'm wondering why they're not all up in arms over it being available on the internet for $4.99 in the first place."

You are forgetting that it is only the exact same bread a priest has cast a magic spell on that is holy.
Now, if you'd take a bought cracker to a church and dip it in holy water - WHAT WOULD HAPPEN?
OH SHI-

I'm leaning towards the term Fatwa envy. - Sastra

I agree - captures the mentality perfectly.

By Nick Gotts (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

Xeno: "Wait - I have it! They have not yet seen the correct truth, right? What are your thoughts on this?"

Ask a difficult question that requires some explanation, get an answer with a lot of detail. That's how it works. I meant to say six points. Which of my (1) to (6) points above are not factual (historically). Look it up if you have to. I'll give you some time.

FACT (1) the first one to teach a purely "symbolic" Eucharist was Berengarius (or Berengar) of Tours c. 1050 AD;

FACT (2) the word "transubstantiation" wasn't used until the 11th and 12th centuries, and it was first officially endorsed at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 AD; although this is not a problem because of Fact (4);

FACT (3) the Radbertus-Ratramnus "debate" of the 9th century wasn't over "transubstantiation" or "symbolic" Eucharist either;

FACT (4) ALL the orthodox Fathers, Saints, and Doctors of the Church from St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD) to St. Thomas Aquinas (13th century) held a Catholic view of a literal, real, substantial "presence of Christ" in the Eucharist, even though the word "transubstantiation" wasn't used early on (it WAS used by Aquinas who lived after the 1215 AD Fourth Lateran Council);

FACT (5) the terminology that WAS used by the Fathers, Saints, and Doctors were the Latin/Greek terms for "change" or "transform" or "convert" of the bread/wine elements into the "body and blood of Christ" which very closely approximates the word -transubstantiation- (or "change of substance");

FACT (6) the Orthodox believe the same thing as Catholics (using the Greek term -metousiosis- for "change of substance"), and they inherit the same eastern Fathers as us who used very literal terminology (e.g. St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Alexandria and St. John Damascene).

If (1) to (6) are correct, then it follows (A) Every Christian should believe the Catholic Eucharist, (B) Every Christian should be Catholic (or at least Orthodox I'll grant).

We already know what the teaching of the Catholic Church is NOW (that is not in dispute, see the Catechism paragraphs 1322ff). My little "debate" in here was on whether it was historically taught. It was. And NOW every Catholic who rejects that teaching is either (X) ignorant of their own faith, (Y) if they are not ignorant but understand transubstantiation, then they are rejecting the teachings of their own Church. So YES, it is very clear that Catholics who reject their own Church's teaching are either ignorant or disobedient.

Now that I have established transubstantiation historically, do we move on to God's existence, historical Jesus, Jesus' resurrection, or the founding of the Catholic Church by Jesus.

Or is it just Fuck You PhilVaz, you've said enough already. Or we can take it to Catholic Answers forums and I'll do my best William Lane Craig (Catholic version) imitation for you. Sorry there's that Pharyngula language again changing my vocabulary.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm

Phil P

Phil @ #991

"Ask a difficult question that requires some explanation, get an answer with a lot of detail. That's how it works. I meant to say six points. Which of my (1) to (6) points above are not factual (historically). Look it up if you have to. I'll give you some time."

Thanks for answering!
Only, could you try again - this time actually reading what I wrote?
I did not want a debate about the finer points of this theology. I stated pretty clearly my question, in relation to the assumption you initially seemed to agree with - that many christians and catholics in fact do NOT agree with you.

Phil,

I guess I'm confused at this point:
"So YES, it is very clear that Catholics who reject their own Church's teaching are either ignorant or disobedient."

You're saying all christians should be catholics, and all catholics that do not support the holy cracker theory are either ignorant or disobedient, right?

That is, you're not actually leaving any room - as I had assumed - for alternative truth, instead categorically judging the whole of christianity (and indirectly all other religions)?

What does "frackin" mean?

By roy sansom (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

Phil Vaz,

I'm still confused as to what you are trying to achieve here, can you be specific ?
Are you trying to convinve us that we should become Catholics ?

By negentropyeater (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

Roy,

"Frackin'" or "frakking" (or a number of other spellings) is simply "fucking", but in the parlance suited for TV created by the show Battlestar Galactica (the new version, that is).

Sufficiently nerdy for online usage.

Wait, what's tiresome to read again - the people defending their faith or your backslappers? Your backslappers outnumber them by 10 to 1. I ain't a backslapper. Take religion or leave religion, it's a simple choice.

It is good to see Etha again...how ya been, kid?

In other news the Kenster has returned from all that book learnin', and reveals that he should have stuck with that Bowling 101 elective.

By BobbyEarle (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

I got as far as "muzzies".

What the hell are muzzies?

By Badjuggler (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink

Fr. J is a troll pretending to be a priest. Nothing says they have to be smart but they weed the really stupid and crazy ones out. - Reverend Raven

Used to. But they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel these days - its mostly pedophiles, and those who couldn't get any other form of employment, who are interested in that "career path".

By Nick Gotts (not verified) on 12 Jul 2008 #permalink